From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21404 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2024 19:10:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2024 19:10:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E72243EF9; Fri, 5 Jan 2024 05:10:35 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1704395435; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=zAqbKoWH5wXndCgmwT1W0Zbdhr6cIc5yKuW2BcXY3Y0=; b=BtI5y/8ZELBEqpFuU+3bOSx79cNPvbxO5U38E9PwgSXev32yrsCvKkWlF0VZdNDBI5AHOt 0SaWNas6HpgWXBrN9BfZ0IS5tbXH4P/a0JyP2tmJ92u9XN7tgSXxJ0Y7SNFh/+GJeXqw3I nFF7aGUtOgRSXygzP6B5Ngzv+BudgKs= Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch (mail-4325.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.25]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90BF943EED for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2024 05:10:26 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1704395424; x=1704654624; bh=zAqbKoWH5wXndCgmwT1W0Zbdhr6cIc5yKuW2BcXY3Y0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=aBeHRNN3X/urMiHYtWDwPd8IQu6k/jpl7CD8FWca2zlmQXlRFM0T6SOQOs9KlrCsG lwhVbiRJLWhfTCoyjLt2KE1rw2JbPyRmUuJ6yzkruEUbjgtq8RFs65m1h2vQ88NBtV KOey9COoIGSTpLLa/ahu9DlWREB2fX+Zr7B1/uiHK3ZDV3azNNHuHIiLE4VnNOqPk+ MRSV8yKqwPm9igebnJFPoi7xWjtymKOmvx7h77uZpXfL+KZysc3PFm04JA8gAY41RI ccberTElTrnZfJcB8W7GxHLx6zexpnkJVQYbK7lES9poVd8Idq3S4O8yXTDeck3dE1 WqhCoj5UEE38w== Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:10:02 +0000 To: COFF Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: 25CXOWT36AWBPIS5Q3VJTIC64ZCRRBEP X-Message-ID-Hash: 25CXOWT36AWBPIS5Q3VJTIC64ZCRRBEP X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: Intel ME, UEFI, User Control was Re: Question about BSD disklabel history List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via COFF Reply-To: segaloco [TUHS bcc, moved to COFF] On Thursday, January 4th, 2024 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > For whatever reason, intel makes it difficult to impossible to remove > the ME in later generations. Part of me wonders if the general computing industry is starting to cheat o= ff of the smartphone sector's homework, this phenomenon where whole critica= l components of a hardware device you literally own are still heavily contr= olled and provisioned by the vendor unless you do a whole bunch of tinkerin= g to break through their stuff and "root" your device. That I can fully pa= y for and own a "computer" and I am not granted full root control over that= device is one of the key things that keeps "smart" devices besides my work= issued mobile at arms length. For me this smells of the same stuff, they've gotten outside of the lane of= *essential to function* design decisions and instead have now put in a "fe= ature" that you are only guaranteed to opt out of by purchasing an entirely= different product. In other words, the only guaranteed recourse if a CPU = has something like this going on is to not use that CPU, rather than as the= device owner having leeway to do what you want. Depends on the vendor rea= lly, some give more control than others, but IMO there is only one level of= control you give to someone who has bought and paid for a complete device:= unlimited. Anything else suggests they do not own the device, it is a per= manently leased product that just stops requiring payments after a while, b= ut if I don't get the keys, I don't consider myself to own it, I'm just bor= rowing it, kinda like how the Bell System used to own your telephone no mat= ter how many decades it had been sitting on your desk. My two cents, much of this can also be said of BIOS, UEFI, anything else th= at gets between you and the CPUs reset vector. Is it a nice option to have= some vendor provided blob to do your DRAM training, possibly transition ou= t of real mode, enumerate devices, whatever. Absolutely, but it's nice as = an *option* that can be turned off should I want to study and commit to doi= ng those things myself. I fear we are approaching an age where the only wa= y you get reset vector is by breadboarding your own thing. I get wanting t= o protect users from say bricking the most basic firmware on a board, but i= f I want to risk that, I should be completely free to do so on a device I'v= e fully paid for. For me the key point of contention is choice and consent= . I'm fine having this as a selectable option. I'm not fine with it becom= ing an endemic "requirement." Are we there yet? Can't say, I don't run an= ything serious on x86-family stuff, not that ARM and RISC-V don't also have= weird stuff like this going on. SBI and all that are their own wonderful = kettle of fish. BTW sorry that's pretty rambly, the lack of intimate user control over espe= cially smart devices these days is one of the pillars of my gripes with mod= ern tech. Only time will tell how this plays out. Unfortunately the gener= al public just isn't educated enough (by design, not their own fault) on th= eir rights to really get a big push on a societal scale to change this. Pe= ople just want I push button I get Netflix, they'll happily throw all their= rights in the garbage over bread and circuses....but that ain't new... - Matt G.