From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECD02470E for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2024 17:34:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E396842809; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 02:34:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5047C427FB for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2024 02:34:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3c1ea59cf81so1375956b6e.1 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2024 08:34:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1709656485; x=1710261285; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=J3pyiQ65rF8VQOjNe4ZF90azG/+R6tcrxAGOxV38GGI=; b=Ry+2ugZHvm7M6PRnAMcGMBQ1MyfxPwSdzcSAo7XvG7nVXO4nq7hT9XMFEtSqbC9Cpa IjrSjb7g92fLvkt8jqQyNiasUMtVcPuby3vq7mJQo2q+UxFKBrFQp55u/PZo+2TMAoGv LwqPv7CZwxVDuUryHGLOUUGQdXEGYkaKF6D5E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709656485; x=1710261285; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=J3pyiQ65rF8VQOjNe4ZF90azG/+R6tcrxAGOxV38GGI=; b=LqcWBbEHi3b9IF3ZIKLQpt/EQ7NCvQI4z3FiuPA61F9EVhZHIddZNYXuLw+0snIKbY haQ0Ri8jgHsH7qn6iS7BkRPl7R0mVlhgqmPkZTdBvJn8aeYxEsMX60wDk01rPNksLZPr MMU5obZgL2cZivOlK7VoVYpx5/+peYEwVPA70LILSyfz7opNJtfOiG7/En2V0QmOFIqU w46uTYV/lRLfUqUphd7iJ3yu8lGuoKCENPTDvJmKgoqzZ5l8wAzWbVuTHATbxNq3KrNh J4J92nLHR6vmRYavh6fe32YirwWG9FR22MaDaj59KZeG0aL3rRluv/CxMP+4H1ZAla+h hTNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwTFKxvxaJQCl7T6zxM//BBGlvMtc4sBzalJeBKXwOi5HvjG9rw uP1GKAy5SLE1hSCjCmVB3666EBQh4EuffIeTye9QkY5qRUAnyoxrZFs76R1ayKAUfFnxo1aq+JT 7RcziRUVh0HXDgEJLtz2t2mm04PdYYJI8BQ/V X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEh4j4sjhg9WY/v2lgevFrE1H4r7ZtvIEmmtv+RNU0tFwpvfsoD+zrdj6WVLxHsSbWCmKJS1e2+XOlmlgub1+c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2189:b0:3c1:b4d9:2724 with SMTP id be9-20020a056808218900b003c1b4d92724mr2824807oib.14.1709656485395; Tue, 05 Mar 2024 08:34:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <13abd764-984a-4c9f-8e3e-b1eb7c624692@gmail.com> <7w7cih7nfd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wsf155g20.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7wsf155g20.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 11:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000801dff0612ec6bfa" Message-ID-Hash: 3P7P4C5GGIZBYPSDU4STVD3BQ4LBKLEU X-Message-ID-Hash: 3P7P4C5GGIZBYPSDU4STVD3BQ4LBKLEU X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: coff@tuhs.org, Will Senn X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: regex early discussions List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000801dff0612ec6bfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable below... On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 1:49=E2=80=AFAM Lars Brinkhoff wro= te: > Thank you. Some additional clues: the jargon file started at SAIL, and s= hortly > after was adopted by MIT and then jointly maintained. So it's > not clear which one is "the PDP-6" here. As far as I know, Bill Weiher, = the > creator of STOPGAP and/or SOS?, is associated with SAIL, not MIT. > You are welcome. I'm sorry to confuse the origin and the historical correction. I was using the docs I had, and as you pointed out, the Jargon says PDP-6 but does not specify which site. My notes from the later PDP-10 pointed at DEC+MIT. It does sound like STOPGAP/SOS came to the DEC world from Stanford. So thank you. That said, bring it back to the original question from Will. My original email was about the history of using reg-ex WRT to UNIX. It was less about editors and who did what as much as trying to point out that the idea of a text editor existed long before Ken's version of QED, much less, ed(1). = Most importantly, Ken's QED came after the original QED, which came after other text editors. Adding reg-ex to an editor was natural for someone schooled in the ideas behind automaton and pattern matching. But tmany/most of the text editors in used had been created before that work had begun to be studied and formalized, so, these other editors had not included using reg-ex for the pattern match/search scheme. Ken's great leap was modeling and combining the QED user interface with this new idea in text pattern match/searching, demonstrating that it was a good fit. That would lead to other tools that decided to include the same pattern-matching ideas (grep, sed, awk, Perl, *et al.*). Will had asked -- how did people learn to use reg-ex? The observation I had made and was bringing forward to the list is that if new user came from a background based on being taught about how to create a pattern match er, and sid person had learned a little about the ideas behind automatons, learn to use reg-ex was not a big deal. It was only 'astonishing,' and users might need a separate explanation if they started from some other place - particularly if they did not have that same background in core CS theory/they had previously learned a different way with a different set of tools, such as the text editor. As I understand it, this is how Will came to learn UNIX, so folks like Will needed and appreciated documentation that came from other places. I think that he was asking which documents and what people in the background similar to him had chosen to use to learn how to use the UNIX toolkit. Clem --000000000000801dff0612ec6bfa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
below...

On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 1:49=E2=80=AFAM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
Thank you.=C2=A0 Some additional cl= ues: the jargon file started at SAIL, and=C2=A0shortly after was= adopted by MIT and then jointly maintained.=C2=A0 So it's
not clear which one is "the PDP-6" here.=C2=A0 As far as I know, = Bill Weiher,=C2=A0the creator of STOPGAP and/or SOS?, is associa= ted with SAIL, not MIT.
Yo= u are welcome. I'm sorry to confuse the origin and the historical corre= ction. I was using the docs I had, and as you pointed out, the Jargon says = PDP-6 but does not specify which site. My notes from the later PDP-10 point= ed at DEC+MIT. It does sound like STOPGAP/SOS came to the DEC world from St= anford.=C2=A0So thank you.

<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f">That said, bring it back to the original question from Will.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0My=C2=A0original email was about the history of using reg-ex WRT to UNIX= . It was less about editors and who did what as much as trying to point out= that the idea of a text editor existed long before Ken's version of QE= D,=C2=A0much less, ed(1).=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Most im= portantly, Ken's QED came after the original QED, which came after othe= r text editors. Adding=C2=A0reg-ex=C2=A0to an editor was natural= for someone schooled in the ideas behind automaton and patter<= span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,255)">n = matching. But=C2=A0tmany/most of the text=C2=A0editors=C2=A0= in used=C2=A0had been=C2=A0created=C2=A0before that work = had begun to be studied and formalized, so, these other editors = had not included using reg-ex for the pattern ma= tch/search scheme.=C2=A0

Ken's great = leap was modeling and combining the QED user interface with this new idea i= n text pattern match/searching, demonstrating that it was a good fit. That = would lead to other tools that decided to include the same pattern-matching= ideas (grep, sed, awk, Perl, et al.).

Will had asked -- how did people learn to use reg-ex?=C2=A0 The observ= ation I had made and was=C2=A0bringing forward to the list is that if new u= ser came from a background based on being taught about how to create a patt= ern match er, and sid person had learned=C2=A0a little about the= ideas behind automatons, learn to use reg-ex was not a big deal.=C2=A0 It = was only 'astonishing,' and users might need a separate explanation= if they started from some other place - particularly if they did not have = that same background in core CS theory/they had previously learned a differ= ent way with a different set of tools, such as the text editor.

As I understand it, this is=C2=A0how Will=C2=A0came t= o learn UNIX, so folks like Will needed and appreciated documentation that = came from other places. I think that he was asking which documents and what= people in the background similar to him had chosen to use to=C2=A0learn ho= w to use the UNIX toolkit.


Clem

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