From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760CA25C5D for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 20:53:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09162432AF; Sun, 10 Mar 2024 05:53:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36B29432AD for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2024 05:53:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4d35b9a4b13so1609265e0c.0 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2024 11:53:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1710013985; x=1710618785; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xVRFLw3hWHyKmDCD618Pef0+k47eMxIaV/olurL+tk8=; b=X+2uDxGjX09xeZTj1Jw6B+6VYVI4/4cre4KC0ULltefbwmxJazLMX/JKLpyH2K8qqI LFiHx3lyzSkcKHiI+7xalkTKoU63wW5M6n1lWBjy0FAks3Wcb9xNByM98Q6jfrjOtMQk 2Y1MdIGzW5Xc0eTOkmxQoBGddG/fJsRFWjhSY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1710013985; x=1710618785; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xVRFLw3hWHyKmDCD618Pef0+k47eMxIaV/olurL+tk8=; b=dh4YgXYr8WvI5qM98Kh/UySwVIf9F0oo56M6i6hIUhkRSnyx2T05wCLuwQpSUH4KEv CzwLcy4RmQkByE0p1qY10h988HJp5kch4fW9jSwZZYDY7zh0+jTVLHn8guT1hc/B7bi5 t+6owvnqNfVyE+eZSfa3cbsvq4qCJ4WikyTeyYW2X+EQlXWJwJ4kiYNIIQQSI0vJPwvD Tssee0ZKSfKZ720+KrStoPXPDEnOSjHOdu7gh7Rv8T3Kyn83vFAysg8w3vnMR6j/2oSD rohTkmgucEZN2YxTT9hZjG6vWWTY7YHvkW3+iNhyq0imGlLT8J0AlCnHy8rHU0OzeX2E 9MiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz8Rw/drGdIbiWFxTu7AZ6WQhxUpHhsTOezCfs/LtBHG6svgVGM CPQxoc4FRYQs34wE1Si+ZLghQGy0XelsYo0/dBZWZCpUn6bN4JgEY9OtDIllHOfPwBw5KtDIufM cJ6iOCq66i1ie0RP9Cl7pJdkdS5n5YY0Mfeq8e8xv9N/zYJmhgQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH5HsSn3TfByLKKe/YpLVlK0pUBzAwZb4f4MDqn/Pzn0eqQ5MTTvJPScdVkPOB30RkBKTj1aeEPmsIqzNh4BVU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:20a3:b0:4d3:34f4:7e99 with SMTP id i35-20020a05612220a300b004d334f47e99mr1778335vkd.0.1710013984439; Sat, 09 Mar 2024 11:53:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <606871377.2352922.1709955781555@mail.yahoo.com> <84A5C4DC-E9E7-46F7-AA6C-AADD64ACD305@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: <84A5C4DC-E9E7-46F7-AA6C-AADD64ACD305@icloud.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 14:52:28 -0500 Message-ID: To: Greg Skinner via Internet-history Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a9d0c06133fa813" Message-ID-Hash: 4JBIPZCNXVWIFQ5UM6GFKQBLBIQ2C6JF X-Message-ID-Hash: 4JBIPZCNXVWIFQ5UM6GFKQBLBIQ2C6JF X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Computer Old Farts Followers X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [ih] Fwd: Some Berkeley Unix history - too many PHDs per packet List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001a9d0c06133fa813 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is UNIX history, but since the Internet's history and Unix history are so intertwined, I'm going to risk the wrath of the IH moderators to try to explain, as I was one of the folks who was at the table in those the times and participated in my small way in both events: the birth of the Internet and the spreading of the UNIX IP. More details can be found in a paper I did a few years ago: https://technique-societe.cnam.fr/colloque-international-unix-en-france-et-= aux-etats-unis-innovation-diffusion-et-appropriation--945215.kjsp [If you cannot find it and are interested send me email off list and I'll forward it]. And ... if people want to continue this discussion -- please, please, move it to the more appropriate COFF mailing list: https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff - which I have CC'ed in this reply. On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:32=E2=80=AFPM Greg Skinner via Internet-history < internet-history@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Forwarded for Barbara > > > I will admit your response is confusing me. My post only concerns what > I think I remember as a problem in getting BSD UNIX, in particular the > source code. Nothing about getting something we wanted to use on a > hardware platform from one of the commercial vendors. We needed the BSD > source but got hung up. > Let me see if I can explain better ... Assuming you were running BSD UNIX on a Vax, your team would have needed two things: - an AT&T License for 32/V [Research Version 7 -- port to a Vax/780 at AT&T] and a - a license for BSD 3, later 4, then 4.1, *etc*., from the Regents of the University of CA. The first license gave your team core a few rights from AT&T: 1. the right to run UNIX binaries on a single CPU (which was named in your license) 2. the right to look at and modify the sources, 3. the right the create derivative works from the AT&T IP, and 4. the right to exchange your derivative works with others people that held a similar license from AT&T. [AT&T had been forced to allow this access (license) to their IP under the rules of the 1956 consent decree - see paper for more details, but remember, as part of the consent decree allow it to have a legal monopoly on the phone system, AT&T had to make its IP available to the US Gov -- which I'm guessing the crux of Barbara's question/observation]. For not-for-profits (University/Research), a small fee was allowed to be charged (order of 1-2 hundred $s) to process the paperwork and copy the mag tape. But their IP came without any warranty, and you had to hold AT&T harmless if you used it. In those days, we referred to this as *the UNIX IP was abandoned on your doorstep.* BTW: This license allowed the research sites to move AT&T derivative work (binaries) within their site freely. Still, if you look at the license carefully, most had a restriction (often/usually ignored at the universities) that the sources were supposed to only be available on the original CPU named in their specific license. Thus, if you were a University license, no fees were charged to run the AT&T IP on other CPUs --> however, the licensees were not allowed to use it for "commercial" users at the University [BTW: this clause was often ignored, although a group of us at CMU hackers in the late 1970s famously went on strike until the Unversity obtained at least one commercial license]. The agreement was that a single CPU should be officially bound for all commercial use for that institution. I am aware that Case-Western got a similar license soon after CMU did (their folks found out about the CMU strike/license). But I do not know if MIT, Standford, or UCB officials came clean on that part and paid for a commercial license (depending on the type of license, its cost was the order of $20K-25K for the first CPU and an order of $7K-10K for each CPU afterward - each of these "additional cpu' could also have the sources - but named in an appendix for each license with AT&T). I believe that some of the larger state schools like Penn State, Rutgers, Purdue, and UW started to follow that practice by the time Unix started to spread around each campus. That said, a different license for UNIX-based IP could be granted by the Regents of the University of CA and managed by its 'Industrial Laison's Office" at UCB (the 'IOL' - the same folks that brought licenses for tools like SPICE, SPLICE, MOTIS,* et al*). This license gave the holder the right to examine and use the UCB's derivative works on anything as long as you acknowledged that you got that from UCB and held the Regents blameless [we often called this the 'dead-fish license' -- *you could make a chip, make a computer, or even wrap dead-fish in it.* But you had to say you started with something from the Regents, but they were not to be blamed for what you did with it]. The Regents were exercising rights 3 and 4 from AT&T. Thus, a team who wanted to obtain the Berkeley Software Distribution for UNIX (*a.k.a*. BSD) needed to demonstrate that they held the appropriate license from AT&T [send a copy of the signature page from your license to the ILO] before UCB would release the bits. They also had a small processing fee to the IOL in the order of $1K. [The original BSD is unnumbered, although most refer to it today as 1BSD to differentiate it from later BSD releases for UNIX]. Before I go on, in those times, the standard way we operated was that you needed to have a copy of someone else's signature page to share things. In what would later become USENIX (truth here - I'm an ex-president of the same), you could only get invited and come to a conference if you were licensed from AT&T. That was not a big deal. We all knew each other. FWIW: at different times in my career, I have had a hanging file in a cabinet with a copy of the number of these pages from different folks, with whom I would share mag tapes (remember this is pre-Internet, and many of the folks using UNIX were not part of the ARPAnet). However, the song has other verses that make this a little confusing. If your team obtained a* commercial use license* from AT&T, they could further obtain a *commercial redistribution license*. This was initially granted for the Research Seventh Edition. It was later rewritten (with the business terms changing each time) for what would eventually be called System III[1], and then the different System V releases. The price of the redistribution license for V7 was $150K, plus a sliding scale per CPU you ran the AT&T IP, depending on the number of CPUs you needed. With this, the single CPU for the source restriction was removed. So ... if you had a redistribution license, you could also get a license from the Regents, and as long as you obeyed their rules, you could sell a copy of UNIX to run on any licensed target. Traditionally, hardware is part of the same purchase when purchased from a firm like DEC, IBM, Masscomp,* etc*. However, separate SW licenses were sold via firms such as Microsoft and Mt. Xinu. The purchaser of *a binary license* from one of those firms did not have the right to do anything but use the AT&T derivative work. If your team had a binary licensee, you could not obtain any of the BSD distributions until the so-called 'NET2" BSD release [and I'm going to ignore the whole AT&T/BSDi/Regents case here as it is not relevant to Barbara's question/comment]. So the question is, how did a DoD contractor, be it BBN, Ford Aerospace, SRI, etc., originally get access to UNIX IP? Universities and traditional research teams could get a research license. Commercial firms like DEC needed a commercial licensee. Folks with DoD contracts were in a hazy area. The original v5 commercial licensee was written for Rand, a DoD contractor. However, as discussed here in the IH mailing list and elsewhere, some places like BBN had access to the core UNIX IP as part of their DoD contracts. I believe Ford Aerospace was working with AT&T together as part of another US Gov project - which is how UNIX got there originally (Ford Aero could use it for that project, but not the folks at Ford Motors, for instance]. The point is, if you access the *IP indirectly* such as that, then your site probably did not have a negotiated license with a signature page to send to someone. @Barbara, I can not say for sure, but if this was either a PDP-11 or a VAX and you wanted one of the eBSDs, I guess/suspect that maybe your team was dealing with an indirect path to AT&T licensing -- your site license might have come from a US Gov contract, not directly. So trying to get a BSD tape directly from the IOL might have been more difficult without a signature page. So, rolling back to the original. You get access to BSD sources, but you had to demonstrate to the IOL folks in UCB's Cory Hall that you were legally allowed access to the AT&T IP in source code form. That demonstration was traditionally fulfilled with a xerographic copy of the signature page for your institution, which the IOL kept on file. That said, if you had legal access to the AT&T IP by indirect means, I do not know how the IOL completed that check or what they needed to protect the Regents. Clem 1.] What would be called a System from a marketing standpoint was originally developed as PWB 3.0. This was the system a number of firms, including my own, were discussing with AT&T at the famous meetings at 'Ricky's Hyatt' during the price (re)negotiations after the original V7 redistribution license. --0000000000001a9d0c06133fa813 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This=C2=A0is U= NIX history, but since the Internet's history and Unix history are so i= ntertwined, I'm going to risk the wrath of the IH moderators to try to = explain, as I was one of the folks who was at the table in those the times = and participated in my small way in both events: the birth=C2=A0of the Inte= rnet and the spreading of the UNIX IP.

More details can be found in= a paper I did a few years ago:=C2=A0https://technique-societe.cnam.fr/colloque-inter= national-unix-en-france-et-aux-etats-unis-innovation-diffusion-et-appropria= tion--945215.kjsp [If you cannot find it and ar= e interested send me email off list and I'll forward it].=

And ... if people want to continue this discussion -- please, please, mov= e it to the more appropriate COFF mailing list: https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/li= stinfo/coff - which I have CC'ed=C2=A0in this reply.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">

On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:32=E2= =80=AFPM Greg Skinner via Internet-history <internet-history@elists.isoc.org<= /a>> wrote:
F= orwarded for Barbara

> I will admit your response is confusing me.=C2=A0 My post only concern= s what I think I remember as a=C2=A0 problem in getting BSD UNIX, in partic= ular the source code. Nothing about getting something=C2=A0 we wanted to us= e on a hardware platform from one of the commercial vendors.=C2=A0 We neede= d the BSD source but got hung up.

Let me see if I can explain better ...

Assuming yo= u were running BSD UNIX on a Vax, your team would have needed two things:
The first license gave your team core a few rights from AT&= amp;T:=C2=A0
  1. =C2=A0the right= to run UNIX binaries on a single CPU (which was named in your license)=C2= =A0
  2. the right to look at and modify = the sources,=C2=A0
  3. the right the cre= ate derivative works from the AT&T=C2=A0IP, and=C2=A0
  4. the right=C2=A0to exchange your derivative=C2=A0works= with others people that held a similar license from AT&T.=C2=A0=
[AT&T had been forced to allow this a= ccess (license) to their IP under the rules of the 1956 consent decree - se= e paper for more details, but remember, as part of the consent decree allow= it to have a legal monopoly on the phone system, AT&T had to make its = IP available to the US Gov -- which I'm guessing the crux of Barbara= 9;s question/observation].=C2=A0

For=C2=A0not-for-profits (University/Research), a small fee was allowed to be charged (or= der of 1-2 hundred $s) to process the paperwork and copy the mag tape. But = their IP came without any warranty, and you had to hold AT&T harmless i= f you used it.=C2=A0In those days, we referred to this as the UNIX IP was aban= doned on your doorstep.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= BTW: This license allowed the research sites to move AT&T=C2=A0derivati= ve=C2=A0work (binaries) within their site freely. Still, if you look at the= license carefully, most had a restriction (often/usually ignored at the un= iversities) that the sources were supposed to only be available on the orig= inal CPU named in their specific license.

Thus, if you were a U= niversity license, no fees were charged to run the AT&T IP on other CPU= s --> however, the licensees were not allowed to use it for "commer= cial" users at the University [BTW: this clause was often ignored, alt= hough a group of us at CMU hackers in the late 1970s famously went on strik= e until the Unversity=C2=A0obtained at least one commercial license].=C2=A0= The agreement was that a single CPU should be officially bound for=C2=A0al= l commercial use for that institution.=C2=A0 I am aware that Case-Western g= ot a similar license soon after CMU did (their folks found out about the=C2= =A0CMU strike/license).=C2=A0 But I do not know if MIT, Standford, or UCB o= fficials came clean on that part and paid for a commercial license (dependi= ng on the type of license, its cost was the order of $20K-25K for the first= CPU and an order of $7K-10K for each CPU afterward - each of these "a= dditional cpu' could also have the sources - but named in an appendix f= or each license with AT&T).=C2=A0 =C2=A0I believe that some of the larg= er state schools like Penn State, Rutgers, Purdue, and UW started to follow= that practice by the time Unix started to spread around each campus.

That said, a different license for UNIX-based IP could be granted=C2=A0b= y the Regents of the University of CA and managed=C2=A0by its=C2=A0 'In= dustrial Laison's=C2=A0Office" at UCB (the 'IOL' - the sam= e folks that brought licenses for tools like SPICE, SPLICE, MOTIS, et al= ). This license gave the holder the right to examine and use the UCB= 9;s derivative works on anything as long as you acknowledged that you got t= hat from UCB and held the Regents=C2=A0blameless [we often called this the = 'dead-fish license' -- you could make a chip, make a computer= , or even wrap dead-fish in it.=C2=A0 But you had to say you starte= d with something from the Regents, but they were not to be blamed for what = you did with it].

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">The Regents were exercising rights 3 and 4 from A= T&T. Thus, a team who wanted to obtain the Berkeley Software=C2=A0Distr= ibution=C2=A0for UNIX (a.k.a. BSD) needed to demonstrate that they h= eld the appropriate license from AT&T [send a copy of the signature pa= ge from your license to the ILO] before UCB would release the bits. They al= so had a small processing fee to the IOL in the order of $1K.=C2=A0 =C2=A0[= The original BSD is unnumbered, although most refer to it today as 1BSD to = differentiate it from later BSD releases for UNIX].

Before I go on= , in those times, the standard way we operated was that you needed to have = a copy of someone else's=C2=A0signature page to share things. In what w= ould later become USENIX (truth here - I'm an ex-president of the same)= , you could only get invited and come to a conference if you were licensed = from AT&T.=C2=A0That was not a big deal. We all knew each other.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 FWIW: at different times in my career, I have had a hanging file in = a cabinet with a copy of the number of these pages from different folks, wi= th whom I would share mag tapes (remember this is pre-Internet, and many of= the folks using UNIX were not part of the ARPAnet).

How= ever, the song has other verses that make this a little confusing.

If your=C2=A0team obtained a commercial use license from = AT&T, they could further obtain a commercial redistribution licen= se.=C2=A0 This was initially granted for the Research Seventh Editi= on. It was later rewritten (with the business terms changing each time) for= what would eventually be called System III[1], and then the different Syst= em V releases.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The price of the redistribution license for V7 w= as $150K, plus a sliding scale per CPU you ran the AT&T IP, depending o= n the number of CPUs you needed. With this, the single CPU for the source r= estriction was removed.

<= /div>
So ... if you had a redistribution license,= you could also get a license from the Regents, and as long as you obeyed t= heir rules, you could sell a copy of UNIX to run on any licensed target.=C2= =A0 Traditionally, hardware is part of the same purchase when purchased fro= m a firm like DEC, IBM, Masscomp, etc. However, separate SW licenses= were sold via firms such as Microsoft and Mt. Xinu. The purchaser of a binary license=C2=A0from one of those firms did not have the rig= ht to do anything but use the AT&T derivative work.=C2=A0 If your team = had a binary licensee, you could not obtain any of the BSD distributions un= til the so-called 'NET2" BSD release [and I'm going to ignore = the whole AT&T/BSDi/Regents case here as it is not relevant to Barbara&= #39;s question/comment].

=
So the question is, how did a DoD contract= or, be it BBN, Ford Aerospace, SRI, etc., originally get access to UNIX IP?= Universities and traditional research teams could get a research license.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Commercial firms like DEC needed a commercial licensee. Folks = with DoD contracts were in a hazy area.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The original v5 commer= cial licensee was written for Rand, a DoD contractor.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0However, as discussed he= re in the IH mailing list and elsewhere, some places like BBN had access to= the core UNIX IP as part of their DoD contracts.=C2=A0I believe For= d Aerospace was working with AT&T together as part of another US Gov pr= oject - which is how UNIX got there originally (Ford Aero could use it for = that project, but not the folks at Ford Motors, for instance].=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /font>

The point is, if you access the IP indirectly such as= that, then your=C2=A0site probably did not have a negotiated license with = a signature page to send to someone.

@Barbara, I can not say for su= re, but if this was either a PDP-11 or a VAX and you wanted one of the eBSD= s, I guess/suspect that maybe your team was dealing with an indirect path t= o AT&T licensing -- your site license might have come from a US Gov con= tract, not directly. So trying to get a BSD tape directly from the IOL migh= t have been more difficult without a signature page.

So, rollin= g back to the original.=C2=A0 You get access to BSD sources, but you had to= demonstrate to the IOL folks in UCB's Cory Hall that you were legally = allowed access to the AT&T IP in source code form.=C2=A0 That demonstra= tion was traditionally fulfilled with a xerographic copy of the signature p= age for your institution, which the IOL kept on file.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That said= , if you had legal access to the AT&T IP by indirect means, I do not kn= ow how the IOL completed that check or what they needed to protect the Rege= nts.

Clem

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">

<= /font>

1.] What would be called a System from a marketing standpoint was o= riginally developed as PWB 3.0.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This was the system a number of= firms, including my own, were discussing with AT&T at the famous meeti= ngs at 'Ricky's Hyatt' during the price (re)negotiations after = the original V7 redistribution license.=C2=A0=C2=A0
--0000000000001a9d0c06133fa813--