From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5976 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2024 22:08:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Jan 2024 22:08:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741E543EC9; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:08:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0494443EC8 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:08:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7ce4512cc24so831020241.2 for ; Tue, 09 Jan 2024 14:08:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1704838097; x=1705442897; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GrNLsef/JBJejqxClr+2KjIaBuGNOVamq7I4TlSsxXQ=; b=C/WXzG69I3jHLQUVJ/6HfUR1chglZffPsytyMTZuZfBfNJLOW+p6TzFZ7mID0IafPr 9SUioC7BqmMbatyE+DcxlftEHfg7HBupWK2EEN7Kq59bm/Z1AVR9vuS8EICLBD8eI4t3 HPjMaqFazdg4mt1HgNrmxfcST/QzO6VI281R8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704838097; x=1705442897; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=GrNLsef/JBJejqxClr+2KjIaBuGNOVamq7I4TlSsxXQ=; b=Ey7BieynU8B/t9sO7QhBYpXB8LzYJrAmb4OVCuTfmS4Bd8ZVnVo63cVzlKaggvxdMj lwbUBUot+oF6j9SSnzGiOob8lkSn7grB17uZCwOlpeVr1s2ogFZiun86ToiK2oD5iSPX 5JD7WNz+c/0/HAPncoDThzexrcdmp8TrdcnBTeUkwhOCyAlziKcEnT1HolVspD/42y7S JntfMZrRpCADrwmu7xw83Wpaf4FryklLi+2MVjbEsi+i4tGPcALalP4rj43ImvSbucyi /TupGHiEifzVyMno4RoU2+Jj9uz4i8BfRe1MLk8IJ06jiZL7gDqR44yPi2QlP19UCcRR io/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxycKD6b3JCMLqFvmw7kO0TBQC/9NKnjqjTyyboM3j2AmN6juGR oj27J62/8vO7XorGfzEGnvHQ5hXcdgc1qmUo6VsH9cJlh6Lc X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGXPjMqZHHYon5v4Pku1llW6uIzO43NDbGXu0bvHy7QUYV8lcTuBO9dLztP4BnMX2Lk6Zwj9W0THKOwHddcxOM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:1488:b0:467:8309:22e0 with SMTP id d8-20020a056102148800b00467830922e0mr3978222vsv.57.1704838096814; Tue, 09 Jan 2024 14:08:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240108032428.co3ozmlneoop6sa2@illithid> <20240108051049.7643537404E9@freecalypso.org> <20240108071109.ykg42tw2gjeacs5f@illithid> <20240109093851.2A29737401E3@freecalypso.org> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:07:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000291fa9060e8a8dca" Message-ID-Hash: IKFB62NMRP5N7IDTF6BXRBHANLTR4SNC X-Message-ID-Hash: IKFB62NMRP5N7IDTF6BXRBHANLTR4SNC X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Computer Old Farts Followers X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Re: Original print of V7 manual? / My own version of troff List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000291fa9060e8a8dca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not really UNIX -- so I'm BCC TUHS and moving to COFF On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 12:19=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS w= rote: > On the subject of troff origins, in a world where troff didn't exist, and > one purchases a C/A/T, what was the general approach to actually using th= e > thing? Was there some sort of datasheet the vendor supplied that the end > user would have to program a driver around, or was there any sort of > example code or other materials provided to give folks a leg up on using > their new, expensive instrument? Did they have any "packaged bundles" fo= r > users of prominent systems such as 360/370 OSs or say one of the DEC OSs? > Basically, the phototypesetter part was turnkey with a built-in minicomputer with a paper tape unit, later a micro and a floppy disk as a cost reduction. The preparation for the typesetter was often done independently, but often the vendor offered some system to prepare the PPT or Floppy. Different typesetter vendors targeted different parts of the market, from small local independent newspapers (such as the one my sister and her husband owned and ran in North Andover MA for many years), to systems that Globe or the Times might. Similarly, books and magazines might have different systems (IIRC the APS-5 was originally targeted for large book publishers). This was all referred to as the 'pre-press' industry and there were lots of players in different parts. Large firms that produced documentation, such as DEC, AT&T *et al*., and even some universities, might own their own gear, or they might send it out to be set. The software varied greatly, depending on the target customer. For instance, by the early 80s, the Boston Globe's input system was still terrible - even though the computers had gotten better. I had a couple of friends working there, and they used to b*tch about it. But big newspapers (and I expect many other large publishers) were often heavy union shops on the back end (layout and presses), so the editors just wanted to set strips of "column wide" text as the layout was manual. I've forgotten the name of the vendor of the typesetter they used, but it was one of the larger firms -- IIRC, it had a DG Nova in it. My sister used CompuGraphic Gear, which was based on 8085's. She had two custom editing stations and the typesetter itself (it sucked). The whole system was under $35K in late-1970s money - but targeted to small newspapers like hers. In the mid-1908s, I got her a Masscomp at a reduced price and put 6 Wyse-75 terminals on it, so she could have her folks edit their stories with vi, run spell, and some of the other UNIX tools. I then reverse-engineered the floppy enough to split out the format she wanted for her stories -- she used a manual layout scheme. She still has to use the custom stuff for headlines and some other parts, but it was a load faster and more parallel (for instance, we wrote an awk script to generate the School Lunch menus, which they published each week). =E1=90=A7 --000000000000291fa9060e8a8dca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not really UNI= X -- so I'm BCC TUHS and moving to COFF

On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 12:19=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
On th= e subject of troff origins, in a world where troff didn't exist, and on= e purchases a C/A/T, what was the general approach to actually using the th= ing?=C2=A0 Was there some sort of datasheet the vendor supplied that the en= d user would have to program a driver around, or was there any sort of exam= ple code or other materials provided to give folks a leg up on using their = new, expensive instrument?=C2=A0 Did they have any "packaged bundles&q= uot; for users of prominent systems such as 360/370 OSs or say one of the D= EC OSs?
Basically, = the phototypesetter part was turnkey with a built-in minicomputer with a pa= per tape unit, later a micro and a floppy disk as a cost reduction.<= /span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The preparation=C2=A0for the= typesetter was often done independently, but often the vendor offered some= system to prepare the PPT or Floppy.=C2=A0 Different typesetter=C2=A0vendo= rs targeted different parts of the market, from small local independent new= spapers (such as the one my sister and her husband owned and ran in North A= ndover MA for many years), to systems that Globe or the Times might.=C2=A0 = Similarly, books and magazines might have different systems (IIRC the APS-5= was originally targeted for large book=C2=A0publishers).=C2=A0 This was al= l referred to as the 'pre-press' industry and there were lots of pl= ayers in different parts.

Large firms that= produced documentation, such as DEC, AT&T et al., and even some= universities, might own their own gear, or they might send it out to be se= t.

The software varied greatly, depending on the target customer.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance, by the early 80s,=C2=A0 the Boston Globe's i= nput system was still terrible - even though the computers had gotten bette= r.=C2=A0 I had a couple of friends working there, and they used to b*tch ab= out it.=C2=A0 But big newspapers (and I expect many other large publishers)= were often heavy union shops on the back end (layout and presses), so the = editors just wanted to set strips of "column wide" text as the la= yout was manual.=C2=A0 I've forgotten the name of the vendor of the typ= esetter they used, but it was one of the larger firms -- IIRC, it had a=C2= =A0DG Nova in it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 My sister used CompuGraphic Gear, which was = based on 8085's.=C2=A0 She had two custom editing stations and the type= setter itself (it sucked).=C2=A0 The whole system was under $35K in late-19= 70s money - but targeted to small newspapers like hers. In the mid-1908s, I= got her a Masscomp at a reduced price and put 6 Wyse-75 terminals on it, s= o she could have her folks edit their stories with vi, run spell, and some = of the other UNIX tools.=C2=A0 I then reverse-engineered the floppy enough = to split out the format she wanted for her stories -- she used a manual lay= out scheme.=C2=A0 She still has to use the custom stuff for headlines and s= ome other parts, but it was a load faster and more parallel (for instance,= =C2=A0we wrote an aw= k script to generate the School Lunch menus, which they published each week= ).

3D""=E1=90=A7
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