From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EA021135 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2024 03:29:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B66041710; Fri, 12 Apr 2024 11:29:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from wfhigh8-smtp.messagingengine.com (wfhigh8-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.159]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92AF64167D for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2024 11:29:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailfhigh.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957C318000EF for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2024 21:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap49 ([10.202.2.99]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Apr 2024 21:29:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=cc :content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1712885364; x=1712971764; bh=1pmC/vuYYa QUXfewNdl5SvFyq2OzcUXuAL6zudFoxJ0=; b=LdH0TD2veNPEswGgrGuWTBTz62 cFnC/vH60Bc84KjC7vpHRfPryNojxukphUN73lryF2iPMFZT3MhpW0PMyzyzADoW Clec4ys+Qml432FoU2Yvz6RfIQHwLv+OxQuSFETR1ikbkiUdAfJon3yTTLxH0uUA 6n7BjEyJWxCn98ritZXDWLxJ6C2DEAvG+ntQwAFaZMa1bqmqA2L7bk/Y+hyyC15w EtYVJBvC8gCvs4wTRAu03yWFvfmcooJVFhIRxO3j62v96hiCxBFQWbVuPlDJgG/O PaEtFjB7hf4iw9jo/ZvnIaF8MH3LdfxxBlw1/7eF8PZ9wT3dzai3KrOLGjzw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm2; t=1712885364; x=1712971764; bh=1pmC/vuYYaQUXfewNdl5SvFyq2Oz cUXuAL6zudFoxJ0=; b=VleuJ4/444uJvMfeXKXceHXHDpI5dsoBv4Bf5zol3KnJ D0fdL+/ZeqbvCr3FWqhiXEsJu7fx2a0G+PSr6SNxPcdanKEF9f/LRGj+K6W8/ku6 A1sPcaOo+Jz7pGAtOCyfNkeJdtn7NyfjIgbYhYtzoTHEe06UQjy3sdevLBv8lk6M BJ59M5RWy6Bp1A7iUJKo7xKFJuHEZp2NwaVqBayR9b6Ieom/6duXmOnbTcZM4srh wQycOjvktHlNFnR24BB/ASLzmM9e+NFJuLLKLQNunj8Go5zbOYWxA2vNV7DqLrzt bfQwGleht7EqjYgAR/a4SZcPxot7qcMRNZ+er+olxQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrudeitddgudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsegrtd erreerreejnecuhfhrohhmpedflfhoshgvphhhucfjohhlshhtvghnfdcuoehjohhsvghp hhesjhhoshgvphhhhhholhhsthgvnhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteeltd duveffudduhefflefftdffveehvdfftdeugedufeetueduieeileffffejnecuffhomhgr ihhnpehguhhnkhhivghsrdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpmhgrnhdrihhnnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhoshgvphhh sehjohhsvghphhhhohhlshhtvghnrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i49d34368:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8D33D15A0092; Thu, 11 Apr 2024 21:29:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-379-gabd37849b7-fm-20240408.001-gabd37849 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9b6a85e4-ae0c-45a1-bd30-25e818c435c9@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <63655700-31d7-4bd7-ae35-02f10463988e@mhorton.net> References: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org> <63655700-31d7-4bd7-ae35-02f10463988e@mhorton.net> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 18:29:03 -0700 From: "Joseph Holsten" To: "Tautological Eunuch Horticultural Scythians" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=efc1860a31664a79a9d5da93f6afc981 Message-ID-Hash: NBI24HYW752QJTC443J3SY4Z4XBWEMGN X-Message-ID-Hash: NBI24HYW752QJTC443J3SY4Z4XBWEMGN X-MailFrom: joseph@josephholsten.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Word erase? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --efc1860a31664a79a9d5da93f6afc981 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 8, 2024, at 15:51, Mary Ann Horton wrote: > On 4/8/24 08:18, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: >> Dan Cross wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for >>> the introduction of =E2=80=9Cword erase=E2=80=9D functionality to th= e kernel terminal >>> driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix >>> with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later, >>> nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line >>> kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not >>> sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it. >>> VMS does not support it. >>>=20 >>> What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem = to >>> use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@` >>> for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as >>> TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore. >>>=20 >>> - Dan C. >>>=20 >> My memory jibes with this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD >> changed to ^H / DEL and ^U. ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by >> TOPS-10. >>=20 >>=20 > Vi had ^W for word erase long before the tty driver. It's documented i= n 2BSD. >=20 > I think it appeared in the tty driver as part of the new tty driver, a= round 4.1C. The 4.2 stty(1) documents that you can set werase but only w= ith the new tty driver. >=20 > Personally I fondly recalled it from Tenex and wished for it in UNIX. = I can't recall if I lobbied for it or if anyone heard me. >=20 > Chambers and Quarterman noted the new tty driver's presence in 4.1C. h= ttps://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIX*_System_V_and_4.1C_BSD >=20 >=20 >=20 >> 2.2.5 Ioctls The ioctl system call is essentially >> identical in the two systems. The interesting differences >> are in the terminal driver ioctls. Both drivers utilize the >> ``line discipline'' notion, allowing dynamic choice among >> several protocols by the user process. >>=20 >> Berkeley offers several new features in 4.1C BSD over >> the V7 terminal driver. Some of these are accessed as a new >> line discipline (the ``new tty'' discipline), while a few >> others are implemented as additional ioctl calls. That makes me wonder about the timeline compared to the other tenex-insp= ired BSD-ism I=E2=80=99m happy for: tcsh.=20 History here: https://github.com/tcsh-org/tcsh/blob/master/tcsh.man.in#L10239 --efc1860a31664a79a9d5da93f6afc981 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024, at 15:51, Mary Ann Horton wrote= :
On 4/8/24 08:18, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
= 
Dan Cross <crossd@gma=
il.com> wrote:


I wo=
nder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
the introduction of =E2=80=9Cword erase=E2=80=9D functionality to the ke=
rnel terminal
driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
kill" command).  TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?).  Multics does not support it.
VMS does not support it.

What was the proximal inspiration?  The early terminal drivers seem to
use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.

        - Dan C.

My memory jibes w=
ith this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD
changed to ^H / DEL and ^U.  ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by
TOPS-10.

Vi had ^W for word erase long before the tty d= river. It's documented in 2BSD.

I think it appeared in the tty drive= r as part of the new tty driver, around 4.1C. The 4.2 stty(1) documents that you can set werase but only with the new tty driver.

Personally I fo= ndly recalled it from Tenex and wished for it in UNIX. I can't recall if I lobbied for it or if anyone heard me.

Chambers and Quarterman noted the new tty driver's presence in 4.1C. https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIX*_S= ystem_V_and_4.1C_BSD


2.2.5 Ioctls The ioctl system call is essentially identical in the two systems. The interesting differences are in the terminal driver ioctls. Both drivers utilize the ``line discipline'' notion, allowing dynamic choice among several protocols by the user process. Berkeley offers several new features in 4.1C BSD over the V7 terminal driver. Some of these are accessed as a new line discipline (the ``new tty'' discipline), while a few others are implemented as additional ioctl calls.

That makes me wonder about t= he timeline compared to the other tenex-inspired BSD-ism I=E2=80=99m hap= py for: tcsh. 

History here:
https://github.com/tcs= h-org/tcsh/blob/master/tcsh.man.in#L10239
--efc1860a31664a79a9d5da93f6afc981--