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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id cp6-20020a170902e78600b001dd2bacf30asm6230571plb.162.2024.03.07.17.22.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Mar 2024 17:22:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AE816D24-7816-4BC2-BB83-59D1B710EE68" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.400.31\)) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 17:22:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Rob Pike References: <20240307234921.GO2252@mcvoy.com> <8478FB11-64ED-43CE-90AD-6F2011282451@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.400.31) Message-ID-Hash: J25MHPXV4V7DFU4GA53E4NVB7WXNTOXY X-Message-ID-Hash: J25MHPXV4V7DFU4GA53E4NVB7WXNTOXY X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: Bakul Shah via TUHS Reply-To: Bakul Shah X-Spam: Yes --Apple-Mail=_AE816D24-7816-4BC2-BB83-59D1B710EE68 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks! Yes, I love the way go and plan9 C compilers work. IMHO all new = compilers should be written like that. I detest clang & llvm, especially = when, for example, Freebsd make buildworld (from scratch) takes over an = hour because of clang+llvm times. Surely llvm author(s) could've = achieved all the flexibility llvm provide for various frontends in a = different way? [FreeBSD is also at fault. I think it can be compiled = with gcc but no other small and fast compilers like tcc] > On Mar 7, 2024, at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM, Rob Pike = wrote: >=20 > By the way, the unmatched portability of Plan 9 and Go stems from the = way Ken structured that compiler. My talk at GopherCon about the Go = assembler describes this architecture and why it worked so well. Others = feel that by being unorthodox it is clearly bogus and we are jackasses, = but such complainers only notice the difference and don't ask why the = difference is there. >=20 > -rob >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Rob Pike > wrote: >> Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even = 16000?) on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9. >>=20 >> -rob >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah = > wrote: >>> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch = implementation? >>>=20 >>>> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57=E2=80=AFPM, Rob Pike > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, = very clean and pedagogically valuable. >>>>=20 >>>> = https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp= /0805316701 >>>>=20 >>>> -rob >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31=E2=80=AFAM Warner Losh > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08=E2=80=AFPM Rich Salz = > wrote: >>>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1]. = There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC = can post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT = PC/IP[2] project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP = brought TCP and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP = software and was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT = license[4]. BDS C[3] was done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought = my first motorcycle from him :) BDS C was used for the first = implementations of MINCE (mince is not complete emacs -- those kinds of = acronyms were popular) and Scribble, downsized clones of emacs and = Scribe, respectively. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=3D717 >>>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf >>>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C >>>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip = and this is the backstory to them. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Warner >>>=20 --Apple-Mail=_AE816D24-7816-4BC2-BB83-59D1B710EE68 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks!

Yes, I love the = way go and plan9 C compilers work. IMHO all new compilers should be = written like that. I detest clang & llvm, especially when, = for example, Freebsd make buildworld (from scratch) takes over an hour = because of clang+llvm times. Surely llvm author(s) could've achieved all = the flexibility llvm provide for various frontends in a different way? = [FreeBSD is also at fault. I think it can be compiled with gcc but no = other small and fast compilers like tcc]

On Mar 7, 2024, at 5:12=E2=80=AFPM, Rob Pike = <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

By the = way, the unmatched portability of Plan 9 and Go stems from the way Ken = structured that compiler. My talk at GopherCon about the Go assembler = describes this architecture and why it worked so well. Others feel that = by being unorthodox it is clearly bogus and we are jackasses, but such = complainers only notice the difference and don't ask why the difference = is there.

-rob


On Fri, Mar = 8, 2024 at 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> = wrote:
Yes. Ken = wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even 16000?) on = the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.

-rob


On Fri, Mar = 8, 2024 at 12:08=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> = wrote:
What is the history of Plan9's C = compiler? Was it a from scratch = implementation?

On Mar = 7, 2024, at 4:57=E2=80=AFPM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did = LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically = valuable.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design= -Implementation/dp/0805316701

-rob


On Fri, Mar = 8, 2024 at 11:31=E2=80=AFAM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> = wrote:


On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08=E2=80=AFPM Rich Salz = <rich.salz@gmail.com> = wrote:
I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's = thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There was a fair amount of C and = compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post some info. I think = Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project; the links at = BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and clients to DOS 3 = machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was one of the = reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was done by an = MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him :) BDS = C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not complete = emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble, downsized = clones of emacs and Scribe, = respectively.


Judging from what's at the = bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this is the = backstory to = them.

Warner


= --Apple-Mail=_AE816D24-7816-4BC2-BB83-59D1B710EE68--