From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F6D25C9A for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 14:04:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F93B42908; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 23:04:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF68D42907 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 23:04:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2d24a727f78so24490891fa.0 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 06:04:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1710507841; x=1711112641; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=+6+72LCmgNl8h5mXLu2CYCSmRhl39CLF6gl1JwwlMgE=; b=mAq7r3l+e/6d2NzrVcl08vkWXYSWDqKX6JggUzClZUXKiJSUTVzq9+4a7LhJHyDHDm 2t4OTpGGKiBCi1U7m4zK5PicySbZu+yzy3b0F2YILhXbCLNmi6vyZtIGyKJ6+PLkfLag MwG3Q/6UeJZDed2rHLoSOYmINcjgYTm4oGNPz7mEnYYZL1rKGiGGFq5XBkXp2F/ZGoQX qsiSGSeXFE8Mx5EInRp/Ly5dCoCfaU5lqtW1rHF6w/UeJfoXgCIvnOxlr83UDyLYMYgw vJUw0l3hWoFVonOwNjAwJKlfisKTKocSgRrNh708jww+czVfeTrojILYLosHDjHbqB0u JZpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1710507841; x=1711112641; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+6+72LCmgNl8h5mXLu2CYCSmRhl39CLF6gl1JwwlMgE=; b=xFrXubGACxHgWG2omzNCR1jQvR5yZyf2Lpogs3PgXv60hqSBhTALb2ITCxSj9C09BG 9ODpZBEty6KaS6yzMRUOPsFQxmb2orO1Rs6g0ky5LcOGIXMajYt821MJT8qNcGsmrzJL 1HBtPqsYcNmIGVjVd+P+AZU1bos8Aa1Fl+nV8zAdofujEmEQZ3BmJI/8uzxZM+gGnmLl J4EQcO8BNB30rsGCJh8Q3MCizdhsCoZWeM2ehAMy38eeVRmsOZCswPTjcbUoLABPc59g wD3x44om35UKp/X+/455Bwmc7QyiU5fgGooIum/K5kAjYQGtB6gN1ui3WQZI1NCodlsp GDHw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVV8yEs3DBZti7dMbm8O9nAz+IZRcdKDxPI1pIbBUXZnckeb+ttz9VUuTc5IEPqHgIkYMC7QiEA9Wx8uixu X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwPUcY14BkZlFUYa+mgYxHxatH8Ht0lk/LqN8dDjIBrck1XEgtX UA0T/llip8ft2zFX1h7Q1H0ODRGl+AqChE8VpUGUlXvUdigiaQPVAvN29XboK/eAirgIeZ2IbRU yThD59yDU8Oi47oU6fZBQYPAKWxY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHVg4VG6xkUaGfVOd/37CtURYJh6ExOFmhU60E7kDCGDOrkj4LyVDfucVXIb6Kv8ZY4AF/h4eNmWVuFjgsUdgs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a4d3:0:b0:2d4:8e2f:e4fe with SMTP id p19-20020a2ea4d3000000b002d48e2fe4femr776661ljm.38.1710507840912; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 06:04:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4999eb0b-e0e5-4a79-b14f-77d17995f454@osta.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 09:03:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: DY76SYGDZP4C34EM6ADGHCTBYFH46PJA X-Message-ID-Hash: DY76SYGDZP4C34EM6ADGHCTBYFH46PJA X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: The Mark Williams Company and Coherent List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 3:00=E2=80=AFAM Rob Pike wrote: > Another detail. There was lawyerly concern about the code being stolen, a= nd we (127) were asked to find ways to test, absent their source, whether t= hey had just stolen our source and built the binaries. It was soon conclude= d that there were enough details different to definitively say that at leas= t most of the work was done in a clean room, as advertised, but the piece I= liked best is that their PPT(1) program (ASCII art showing a paper tape re= ndering the argument text) did not include the original, and just discovere= d, bug that mispunched, if I remember right, the letter 'R'. Along those lines, Dennis Ritchie wrote up a summary of the event on USENET; apparently in 1998 (I had no idea it was this late): https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/_ZaYeY46eb4/m/5B41Uym6= d4QJ COHERENT (version 4) was my introduction to Unix (or Unix-like) systems. I bought it from an ad in the back of "Computer Shopper" or one of those things; my first inkling that it was rather different from actual Unix was that the `lc` command they had picked up (probably from York or Toronto) was not present on SunOS or 4.3BSD. Similarly, the manual was rather different: it didn't have the usual sectioned Unix manual, but rather an alphabetical "Lexicon" and chapters discussing specific topics (editors, UUCP, etc); in retrospect I thought their manual and its format was rather nice; it was certainly well-written and beautifully typeset. Regardless of that, I pretty quickly left COHERENT behind for NetBSD. COHERENT was an early casualty of Linux's success, and I don't think it ever occupied much more than a niche, but it was an interesting system. I've booted it a few times under emulation out of nostalgia. I had a very small hand in the opening of their sources. I knew that Stephen Ness had archived copies, at the request of Bob Swartz, and I wrote to him about the system overall and ended with something like, "if those sources are available, I'd love to see them." He responded that due to my message, he'd corresponded with Swartz, who had agreed to release the sources under the 3 clause BSD license. Incidentally, Robert Swartz was the father of the late Aaron Swartz. - Dan C. > On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 4:16=E2=80=AFPM Heinz Lycklama w= rote: >> >> Interesting little history about Coherent. They were >> one of a few companies building UNIX-like systems >> from scratch without using UNIX source code in the >> early 1980's. Robert Schwartz represented the Mark >> Williams Company on the /usr/group standards >> effort resulting in the /usr/group Standard in 1984. >> Robert was very insistent that members of the >> /usr/group standards group did not have to be >> UNIX source licensees. >> >> Heinz >> >> On 3/14/2024 8:45 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote: >> > In another thread there's been some discussion of Coherent. I just >> > came across this very detailed history, just posted last month. >> > There's much more to it than I knew. >> > >> > https://www.abortretry.fail/p/the-mark-williams-company >> > >> > Marc >> > >>