From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,LOTS_OF_MONEY, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4AD02C51C for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2024 16:51:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00484428D3; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 01:51:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62a.google.com (mail-ej1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B29428CB for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2024 01:51:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a4663b29334so155895566b.0 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2024 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1710431469; x=1711036269; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=C259klepvw7K7VM+0YvoAssQzlsp0SQxXqFRMsnJa9c=; b=WBYsx11kpFAcACur6/MCglA+uZW0JqjegZu2PgtUShn2FLQ79LEDgHERTK8jpkOaHl dP3zRPEAqzaNeBgsHAISjLJ/QlJooAOd3ROx+Z4mIHXQrI5xcNi9wAg8+4YIM1io0YEr 7iPnKRuKLY3YSS4FxfGC0HoonI/2/msL64hkmlvGnwzcJbFqRGSGTCuGi7nTv9qO85pJ bJOAztR/oF63RIGJtxjScQTfPTmUD+hiS7a5Txz3LE6rtePba9QsX5pRtVRuFR+euXr7 tIeh5xdP6WYSgR6qnFXFFKQldOvgx4v8MzQlQZnwI/AyeZTPOToGujFX3uY9Zy/EPiWI TgxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1710431469; x=1711036269; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=C259klepvw7K7VM+0YvoAssQzlsp0SQxXqFRMsnJa9c=; b=CahMWCEN/BQdMGrsUNIcxQJTvaZpfW6PNpZxMJnh/Q5r0GbkNBuWb+RKrXwUAHUMgM ePq/uf8cuAWDfJUXJF3RbIV+1l1p6vaVp+H+wB8DY3vK9OiezfzWHk2I8ntw4G7G+elz gBADd7qiEANkaXz4LWsKM+wnYST2D8RPt+i+L5fCC2Fu5wu9OwxB2XRzwV5wHzfB9547 aCy4uS6OrqksUBvHSYTukhi3TozpCsvFU05dAnwIbqZ805SetJRajtswn2Ioll4IiEW1 eBEo3buQSWxZQ+sLvPT6sCwRGA1eXrigHV0FSB6ESpOwah5fK9ND+7Jm/j926GjtqDH+ Bgdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyEGZdomCbVERyU27bxSD3cMASiV7pk4EoVdD2gDHVaWxF7d7DD VIEsOm5WGahdL2AogvcICpZ9psyYLZIBzAoCTQf2ivlkN9pPuXPmdKIyWZdUrWVMtsY4yKqHtwU 5kflDW8ciA89v+yoj8hfpciSR2rVJu8+/yAUKJcVzUR1KWzhdxBE4hQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEVtiqNFPseq7amNyK1fDcccUgPcwacusZa4tE314nhBx/+h+ugBAj+F4wWE0sRaqLXWwO/UHFBqVpZwMsMIs0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:1009:b0:a46:68b5:5967 with SMTP id ox9-20020a170907100900b00a4668b55967mr208492ejb.16.1710431469146; Thu, 14 Mar 2024 08:51:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9oGrJHb6s-fL1f5PDMKtnl-JN1Rea-AeDxEgkFiqJgAWEt7v6WUauLschmaq0ESqCnyAXwepvx7DKq9W6u3VRb8J5I8GJF7VmIpl87cy3-A=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9oGrJHb6s-fL1f5PDMKtnl-JN1Rea-AeDxEgkFiqJgAWEt7v6WUauLschmaq0ESqCnyAXwepvx7DKq9W6u3VRb8J5I8GJF7VmIpl87cy3-A=@protonmail.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 09:50:57 -0600 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000021b57e0613a0dc50" Message-ID-Hash: W4BUJ5E27VSRC7AVP6OAGPDT6I5JOK3V X-Message-ID-Hash: W4BUJ5E27VSRC7AVP6OAGPDT6I5JOK3V X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Is OpenText Corporation the Current System V Copyright Holder? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000021b57e0613a0dc50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 6:33=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS w= rote: > Did some reading today, curious on the current state of things with AT&T'= s > UNIX copyright genealogy. The series of events as I understand it are: > > AT&T partners with Novell for the Univel initiative. > > Novell then acquires System V and USL from AT&T. > Substantially all the assets. However, what does that mean? In this case, I think it does include copyright. > Novell sells UNIX System V's source to SCO, but as the courts have ruled, > not the copyright. > Which puts, some say, the ancient Unix license grants at risk. However, I'd contend that Novell knew of the grant and did nothing, so might be barred by estoppel from asserting it at a later date. While copyright law generally doesn't work like this, were one to create a defense of copyright abuse for someone popping up years after the apparent copyright holder granted permission, a defense of estoppel would be good in this case where Novell knew, or should have known, this was going on, but did nothing to fight the fraud of granting a license w/o rights. > Novell gets purchased by Microfocus. > > Microfocus gets purchased by OpenText Corporation. > > Does this make OpenText the current copyright holders of the commercial > UNIX line from AT&T. > It would depend a lot, like we found in the SCO litigation, what exactly was transferred, what the contracts say, and how any ambiguity in said contracts is adjudicated. This many years after the fact, such litigation may be tricky to undertake. > What got me looking a bit closer into this is curiosity regarding how the > opening of Solaris and the CDDL may impact publication of UNIX code betwe= en > System III and SVR4. I then felt the need to refresh on who might be the > current copyright holder and this is where the trail has lead me. > At the time, though I have no reference for it, Sun bought a paid-up license from AT&T and part of that purchase included the right to distribute the source code in the way they did. This was a special deal Sun cut with AT&T. Sun also had to renegotiate scores of 3rd party contracts to include enough of the system to be viable. I recall reading this in the press, as well as hearing about it from friends at Sun. Years later, over drinks, I heard about it from Glen Weinberg who was my VP. He'd be instrumental in pulling it together. Not exactly a firsthand written source, but someone that would know... Also, though, that was over a decade ago, wine was involved, so I might be misremembering the details, but I'm sure of the main thrust... I also found: So how is it Sun is permitted to open source Unix outright while IBM is sued for more than US$5 billion in damages? Sun is mum on particulars, but it has said it licensed additional rights in a 2003 deal in which it paid SCO US$9.3 million. at https://www.zdnet.com/article/sun-poised-to-take-open-source-solaris-step/ dated in 2005. > My understanding too is that Sun's release under the CDDL set the > precedent that other sub-licencees of System V codebases are also at > liberty to relicense their codebases, but this may be reading too far int= o > it. I have never, ever once heard that. There's no precedent here: It's all what the contracts say. Since Sun paid cash money (or maybe stock) to AT&T, that's a new, special contract. I don't think this is implied even a tiny bit: there's no contract that permits it. > There's also the concern that the ghost of SCO will continue to punish > anyone else who tries with costly-but-doomed-to-fail litigation. Ah, that's different... Though SCO's rights as a revenue collector, but not rights hold, were established, so it's unlikely they will... Their latest litigation isn't based on their Unix IP. > Have there been any happenings lately with regards to getting AT&T UNIX > post-PDP-11 opened up more in the world? So we have Berkeley Unix: V32, which formed the basis for 3BSD, had a preliminary ruling that AT&T lost its copyrights to at least V32, the Vax 7th Edition port they did, due to the fact that (a) they didn't mark the source as copyright and (b) they widely distributed it. This preliminary ruling was never made final, as the case was settled. But it was the result of a very extensive record that was established by the litigants. But, if you talk to some of the old CSRG folks, they'll tell you that frees up BSD. In addition, the settlement of the case put to bed the issue in the BSD world by AT&T explicitly licensing some files and Berkeley creating 4.4BSD-lite. So from that perspective, that bit of post PDP-11 Unix is on solid legal ground. Everything else? Apart from Lucent licensing the 8th, 9th and 10th Edition Unix permissively, there's very little. You can find the sources online, if you really want. You can study them and write commentary about them: that's black letter law on fair use. You can't, however, build a new system based on them, since a commercial use would venture outside of fair use (potentially: abandonware has never been litigated so there's a somewhat high legal risk you might be infringing on the rights. Novel copyright legal theories are a dime a dozen and rarely ultimately successful). > Reading up a bit on OpenText's business, they don't seem like they're > invested in the OS world, seems that their primary sector is content > management. Granted, there's certainly under-the-radar trading of bits a= nd > pieces, but it would be nice to have some more certainty about what can > happen out in the open. > People have worked the back channels to try to even find the right person to talk to, so far to no good effect. They were primarily interested in clearing up the legal ambiguity surrounding the Ancient Unix Licenses, but even that narrow ask has gone nowhere to date (at least publicly, I'm not privy to what might be still private). The main problem with any of this is that all the companies that took System V made changes to customize it for their hardware. That means even if OpenText is the successor of interest for the Unix Copyrights, and even if you could get someone there interested in granting a super-permissive license on all that material (putting aside for the moment what, exactly, was copyrighted and transferred) for no financial benefit for OpenText (only the risk of a counter suit from someone else who, though backroom deals not disclosed to the public, who thinks they own the rights). Even if you get through all that, none of the System V system would be opened up because the licensees of those systems also have rights to what they produced and without their permission, you would not have rights to distribute things permissively. At best, it would semi-legitimize some of the available to download tapes that one can find on the internet that purport to be verbatim copies of the source from AT&T. Though much of the later work was done by third parties and consortia, so even if AT&T successor in interest gave the nod, those other parties might not have granted AT&T the right to do this. So I'm not optimistic we'll ever see any further opening up of Ancient Unix, which is now even older than the 7th edition was when the Ancient Unix License was released. Warner --00000000000021b57e0613a0dc50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 6:33=E2=80=AF= PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org= > wrote:
Did = some reading today, curious on the current state of things with AT&T= 9;s UNIX copyright genealogy.=C2=A0 The series of events as I understand it= are:

AT&T partners with Novell for the Univel initiative.

Novell then acquires System V and USL from AT&T.
<= br>
Substantially all the assets. However, what does that mean? I= n this case, I think it does include copyright.
=C2=A0
Novell sells UNIX System V's source to SCO, but as the courts have rule= d, not the copyright.

Which puts, some = say, the ancient Unix license grants at risk. However, I'd contend that= Novell knew of the grant and did nothing, so might be barred by estoppel f= rom asserting it at a later date. While copyright law generally doesn't= work like this, were one to create a defense of copyright abuse for someon= e popping up years after the apparent copyright holder granted permission, = a defense of estoppel would be good in this case where Novell knew, or shou= ld have known, this was going on, but did nothing to fight the fraud of gra= nting a license w/o rights.
=C2=A0
Novell gets purchased by Microfocus.

Microfocus gets purchased by OpenText Corporation.

Does this make OpenText the current copyright holders of the commercial UNI= X line from AT&T.

It would depend a= lot, like we found in the SCO litigation, what exactly was transferred, wh= at the contracts say, and how any ambiguity in said contracts is adjudicate= d. This many years after the fact, such litigation may be tricky to underta= ke.
=C2=A0
What got me looking a bit closer into this is curiosity regarding how the o= pening of Solaris and the CDDL may impact publication of UNIX code between = System III and SVR4.=C2=A0 I then felt the need to refresh on who might be = the current copyright holder and this is where the trail has lead me.

At the time, though I have no reference for = it, Sun bought a paid-up license from AT&T and part of that purchase in= cluded the right to distribute the source code in the way they did. This wa= s a special deal Sun cut with AT&T. Sun also had to renegotiate scores = of 3rd party contracts to include enough of the system to be viable. I reca= ll reading this in the press, as well as hearing about it from friends at S= un. Years later, over drinks, I heard about it from Glen Weinberg who was m= y VP. He'd be instrumental=C2=A0in pulling it together. Not exactly a f= irsthand written source, but someone that would know... Also, though, that = was over a decade ago, wine was involved, so I might be misremembering the = details, but I'm sure of the main thrust...

I = also found:
So how is it Sun is permitted t= o open source Unix outright while IBM is sued for more than US$5 billion in= damages? Sun is mum on particulars, but it has said it licensed additional= rights in a 2003 deal in which it paid SCO US$9.3 million.
=C2=A0
There's also the concern that the ghost of SCO wi= ll continue to punish anyone else who tries with costly-but-doomed-to-fail = litigation.

Ah, that's different... Th= ough SCO's rights as a revenue collector, but not rights hold, were est= ablished, so it's unlikely they will... Their latest litigation isn'= ;t based on their Unix IP.
=C2=A0
Have there been any happenings lately with regards = to getting AT&T UNIX post-PDP-11 opened up more in the world?

So we have Berkeley Unix: V32, which formed the basi= s for 3BSD, had a preliminary ruling that AT&T lost its copyrights to a= t least V32, the Vax 7th Edition port they did, due to the fact that (a) th= ey didn't mark the source as copyright and (b) they widely distributed = it. This preliminary ruling was never made final, as the case was settled. = But it was the result of a very extensive record that was established by th= e litigants. But, if you talk to some of the old CSRG folks, they'll te= ll you that frees up BSD. In addition, the settlement of the case put to be= d the issue in the BSD world by AT&T explicitly licensing some files an= d Berkeley creating 4.4BSD-lite. So from that perspective, that bit of post= PDP-11 Unix is on solid legal ground.

Everything = else? Apart from Lucent licensing the 8th, 9th and 10th Edition Unix permis= sively, there's very little. You can find the sources online, if you re= ally want. You can study them and write commentary about them: that's b= lack letter law on fair use. You can't, however, build a new system bas= ed on them, since a commercial use would venture outside of fair use (poten= tially: abandonware has never been litigated so there's a somewhat high= legal risk you might be infringing on the rights. Novel copyright legal th= eories are a dime a dozen and rarely ultimately successful).
=C2= =A0
Reading up a bit= on OpenText's business, they don't seem like they're invested = in the OS world, seems that their primary sector is content management.=C2= =A0 Granted, there's certainly under-the-radar trading of bits and piec= es, but it would be nice to have some more certainty about what can happen = out in the open.

People have worked the= back channels to try to even find the right person to talk to, so far to n= o good effect. They were primarily interested in clearing up the legal ambi= guity surrounding the Ancient Unix Licenses, but even that narrow ask has g= one nowhere to date (at least publicly, I'm not privy to what might be = still private).

The main problem with any of this = is that all the companies that took System V made changes to customize it f= or their hardware. That means even if OpenText is the successor of interest= for the Unix Copyrights, and even if you could get someone there intereste= d in granting a super-permissive license on all that material (putting asid= e for the moment what, exactly, was copyrighted and transferred) for no fin= ancial benefit for OpenText (only the risk of a counter suit from someone e= lse who, though backroom deals not disclosed to the public, who thinks they= own the rights).=C2=A0 Even if you get through all that, none of the Syste= m V system would be opened up because the licensees of those systems also h= ave rights to what they produced and without their permission, you would no= t have rights to distribute things permissively. At best, it would semi-leg= itimize some of the available to download tapes that one can find on the in= ternet that purport to be verbatim copies of the source from AT&T. Thou= gh much of the later work was done by third parties and consortia, so even = if AT&T successor in interest gave the nod, those other parties might n= ot have granted AT&T the right to do this.

So = I'm not optimistic we'll ever see any further opening up of Ancient= Unix, which is now even older than the 7th edition was when the Ancient Un= ix License was released.

Warner
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