From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500AA28B84 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2024 16:28:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5834368E; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 01:28:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com (mail-ej1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC2043685 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2024 01:28:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a44d084bfe1so120394766b.1 for ; Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:28:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1709911698; x=1710516498; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wx7EwdxSMyKMLxV4MGCB+VdJiN3Obo3aeQ8YvzHxfo0=; b=bqDuqNPaD31xTLwOz/Ge9B0Wa88crj8UtzX6qX9STleYDtMOG/HloiHqN6At4hL/8G zLz7pvGmiDzgtN8oPZ5krX5my0UNrRtv6Xvd3AhDIWyDIaSCYOhAcQMhH6tyATYtlN+F tOZuBnLnOUEpwrE1egUmJqPABA1aD7p9TFx7Curw+qKEpwaes+WTFm54n7dHuxasuDX1 55QKEbeffnhSROr0szskip1tQhsfqgx18tJorwnxjIEmR7DRYdb4DQBpd/L6vnrJXdhF +tIXPz5OQqBWKpoN8oslkJS9lp/7QOnzowGQgixxnFpkkLxPwXUpsHlLkVRDZn62eZ/p Cs5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709911698; x=1710516498; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wx7EwdxSMyKMLxV4MGCB+VdJiN3Obo3aeQ8YvzHxfo0=; b=u7ZoXv5Brl6kQzfudeT7E6n2MWqlYzaOKLFTwF4x4VQUnTvLIkmP4NoV6J0PnEwVr4 NB2YavztNTwnPufo1DsU61oaBOqMLKzR5y1jMasyMh57I3YfyiwtsvX0KRFP3EVNeUZp 78MvKUtNS4LaC8KIqHBIQYdzlpZronaZV875OSs7c9mc6/Yxyy68vvZOBZ0ux7uZdfbV XxRdN2JQm/w8081yUFS6ZaHGUq7EaBa9Eapu1FiinhPneVcKJmpe7mz2hTWKLWOpF9l9 kztLDUcgYd1g3uXg3DtKrF59W0CMy2LNPa5W96v9BYqtGREdcNxrJ85hqVG76R5rN8hp w4rQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWnU+0Z/LZVNtg+ee0Ud3VLit3wDsKKUk69q/fjcJHAIG4ZvtJIhzoyKYqcgWGdFQAzAIgp3wCsr3lAtxQR X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyY7avGuk89uAOL4zrp/BqjTl82T5HPfNru9QsyxQ6l6p2digWW HEtb1+mc4QnPK6UccoZfL8eLivwEO/4txyS4hiC+PyZF3/6mafPt5EePx4AMJHUuF4crMEaXGnc aQjZFnNGdnxcdJWr00SHDqz52LuYAozMmD67kCw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFR7stWB+Ju4OcuDgcqiVERFruhWtwIv6et0a7SPp3V1zqfI4MYK0DJzi60mk/+pt2bXvKeteFO20/rHp++atQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3954:b0:a43:eeec:57b1 with SMTP id g20-20020a170906395400b00a43eeec57b1mr14246238eje.34.1709911698407; Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:28:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9eb334edeb7568193000f8755704af7799169b17.camel@gmail.com> <789486d8dae3335166640461f7885bf9cf6043cf.camel@gmail.com> <20240308034259.GS2252@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20240308034259.GS2252@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 08:28:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000619f2f061327d760" Message-ID-Hash: 7I6WILSNW4VAIZBQZYRUVXCRMTKT4GTG X-Message-ID-Hash: 7I6WILSNW4VAIZBQZYRUVXCRMTKT4GTG X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "Jeffry R. Abramson" , Ben Kallus , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: What do you currently use for your primary OS at home? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000619f2f061327d760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 8:43=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:15:43PM -0500, Jeffry R. Abramson wrote: > > On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 13:08 +0000, Ben Kallus wrote: > > > What about Linux is too bloated, in your opinion? Is it the kernel > > > itself, or the programs that often go with it? If it's the former, > > > OpenBSD may be a good choice. If it's the latter, I would look into a > > > minimal distribution (e.g. Alpine, Void, arguably Arch) paired with a > > > tiling window manager (e.g. Sway, dwm). > > > > > > -Ben > > > > The bloated part? IMHO I would say systemd, pulseaudio, NetworkManager, > > KDE, GNOME, Cinnamon. ??Even though Cinnamon is the desktop I use. ??My > > wife's laptop finally died ie. Windows got so crudded up with stuff > > that Outlook couldn't send mail and I just refused to try and fix it. > > ??I gave her my old PC with Debian and configured Cinnamon to look like > > Windows 7. ??All she does with it is web and email so all I really had > > to do was setup Firefox and Evolution and tell her it was Windows. > > > > As far as the kernel goes, I rebuilt the stock kernel that Debian uses > > just for kicks. ??It took 25 minutes on a 16-thread system with SSD > > storage, source tree plus build output occupies 26G, pretty bloaty. ??I > > just refreshed most of my infrastructure and in the process switched > > from xfs/LVM to ZFS so it may be time to make the switch back to > > FreeBSD if I retain enough muscle memory. > > So I'm a SunOS guy, got there just after SunOS 4.0, contributed to 4.1, > really contributed to 4.1.1 and 4.1.3. I loved SunOS. > > FreeBSD and me got reconnected when Netflix wanted to hire me a while > back. While the kernel may be OK (it's not, ask me how I know, I > walked the code), FreeBSD is stuck in the 1980s. Raise your hand > if you have installed FreeBSD in the last 20 years. That "UI" > for partitioning the disks, so arcane. The whole install experience > is _awful_. > We must be using different installers. The defaults just work. But so what. Even if it was awful, it's the first 5 minutes of your experience... People don't use the installer, and with the VM images there's even less need to day to fixate on it. And to be fair, it isn't from the 80s. In the 80s, you booted a tape and got. stuck with whatever partitioning the disk driver had. In the 90s you used a calculator to figure out the labels to put on the drives as we started to get a diversity of disks. In the 2000s, everything was still text based, like FreeBSD's installer, but helped you partition things= . It wasn't until the 2010s that the installers started to become graphical on a wide-spread basis. But try installing ZFS root. FreeBSD's installer just does the right thing setting it up. For Liunx, despite it's "awesome" graphics experience, I had 6 pages of instructions from the OpenZFS web site to do it. So while it looks nicer, for sure, there's still some UX issues to overcome. > SunOS was a bug fixed BSD, so I really loved BSD. But BSD is so dead > it is not even funny. Linux is light years ahead. Here is an example > from more than 20 years ago. I was installing RedHat Linux and the > machine I was installing on didn't have a mouse. The installer was > graphical and it was just easier to tab through the options than go > find a mouse. > FreeBSD's installer doesn't need a mouse... And Linux installers have been hit or miss on this issue over the years (mostly a hit, but not always)... And despite all the pro-Linux Netcraft propaganda, FreeBSD is not dying. > I'd love it if BSD had kept up but it has not. Linux is way better. > Yeah, all the bloat is annoying but we are not running on 64KB PDP-lls. > L1 is that size, L2 and L3 are bigger. Main memory is many orders of > magnitude bigger, I'm typing this on a 32GB memory laptop. It's fine. > What's that? I can't hear you over the 800Gbps of traffic we're able to generate with FreeBSD but not Linux... In all fairness, Linux does a better job at moving lots of packets... My daily driver is MacOS for work. And FreeBSD laptop for personal. There are problems with FreeBSD (I'm looking at you wifi), but it works great. The Graphics issues have been solved, by and large. Warner --000000000000619f2f061327d760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 8:43=E2=80=AFP= M Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrot= e:
On Thu, Mar 0= 7, 2024 at 08:15:43PM -0500, Jeffry R. Abramson wrote:
> On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 13:08 +0000, Ben Kallus wrote:
> > What about Linux is too bloated, in your opinion? Is it the kerne= l
> > itself, or the programs that often go with it? If it's the fo= rmer,
> > OpenBSD may be a good choice. If it's the latter, I would loo= k into a
> > minimal distribution (e.g. Alpine, Void, arguably Arch) paired wi= th a
> > tiling window manager (e.g. Sway, dwm).
> >
> > -Ben
>
> The bloated part? IMHO I would say systemd, pulseaudio, NetworkManager= ,
> KDE, GNOME, Cinnamon. ??Even though Cinnamon is the desktop I use. ??M= y
> wife's laptop finally died ie. Windows got so crudded up with stuf= f
> that Outlook couldn't send mail and I just refused to try and fix = it.
> ??I gave her my old PC with Debian and configured Cinnamon to look lik= e
> Windows 7. ??All she does with it is web and email so all I really had=
> to do was setup Firefox and Evolution and tell her it was Windows.
>
> As far as the kernel goes, I rebuilt the stock kernel that Debian uses=
> just for kicks. ??It took 25 minutes on a 16-thread system with SSD > storage, source tree plus build output occupies 26G, pretty bloaty. ??= I
> just refreshed most of my infrastructure and in the process switched > from xfs/LVM to ZFS so it may be time to make the switch back to
> FreeBSD if I retain enough muscle memory.

So I'm a SunOS guy, got there just after SunOS 4.0, contributed to 4.1,=
really contributed to 4.1.1 and 4.1.3.=C2=A0 I loved SunOS.

FreeBSD and me got reconnected when Netflix wanted to hire me a while
back.=C2=A0 While the kernel may be OK (it's not, ask me how I know, I =
walked the code), FreeBSD is stuck in the 1980s.=C2=A0 Raise your hand
if you have installed FreeBSD in the last 20 years.=C2=A0 That "UI&quo= t;
for partitioning the disks, so arcane.=C2=A0 The whole install experience is _awful_.

We must be using different = installers. The defaults just work.=C2=A0

But so w= hat. Even if it was awful, it's the first 5 minutes of your
e= xperience... People don't use the installer, and with the VM images
there's even less need to day to fixate on it.

And to be fair, it isn't from the 80s. In the 80s, you booted a= tape
and got. stuck with whatever partitioning the disk driver h= ad. In the 90s
you used a calculator to figure out the labels to = put on the drives
as we started to get a diversity of disks. In t= he 2000s, everything was
still text based, like FreeBSD's ins= taller, but helped you partition things.
It wasn't until the = 2010s that the installers started to become graphical
on a wide-s= pread basis.

But try installing ZFS root. FreeBSD&= #39;s installer just does the right thing
setting it up. For Liun= x, despite it's "awesome" graphics experience, I
ha= d 6 pages of instructions from the OpenZFS web site to do it. So while
it looks nicer, for sure, there's still some UX issues to overcom= e.
=C2=A0
SunOS was a bug fixed BSD, so I really loved BSD.=C2=A0 But BSD is so dead<= br> it is not even funny.=C2=A0 Linux is light years ahead.=C2=A0 Here is an ex= ample
from more than 20 years ago.=C2=A0 I was installing RedHat Linux and the machine I was installing on didn't have a mouse.=C2=A0 The installer wa= s
graphical and it was just easier to tab through the options than go
find a mouse.

FreeBSD's installer d= oesn't need a mouse... And Linux installers
have been hit or = miss on this issue over the years (mostly a hit,
but not always).= ..

And despite all the pro-Linux Netcraft propagan= da, FreeBSD is
not dying.
=C2=A0
I'd love it if BSD had kept up but it has not.=C2=A0 Linux is way bette= r.
Yeah, all the bloat is annoying but we are not running on 64KB PDP-lls.
L1 is that size, L2 and L3 are bigger.=C2=A0 Main memory is many orders of<= br> magnitude bigger, I'm typing this on a 32GB memory laptop.=C2=A0 It'= ;s fine.

What's that? I can't h= ear you over the 800Gbps=C2=A0of traffic we're able
to genera= te with FreeBSD but not Linux...=C2=A0 In all fairness, Linux does
a better job at moving lots of packets...

My dai= ly driver is MacOS for work. And FreeBSD laptop for personal. There are pro= blems
with FreeBSD (I'm looking at you wifi), but it works gr= eat. The Graphics issues
have been solved, by and large.

Warner
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