From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A245212C7 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2024 03:12:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B704329B; Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:12:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A3BD43284 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:12:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-36423c819a3so7562485ab.0 for ; Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:12:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1709863954; x=1710468754; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=g0Iscz+9zP+M6pZ3HiQw0Du99YO9OrMyoUgf90D9v7o=; b=WT1sU81rTSWdwZngza273QREOCyB+XmGU0urHiH8eAEOlJQqqBD5r/+Ha0y8zouXKU a1V0sVqc8fthpSgyG831iI0XRdjtxLrfW7diZphpe+zGLl07o9ml+04dW15OTdDN1lxg lW1RaxPYTBMCyNqjNPS2o+OMBNvX4RUwoOcyuU5/dkjmEWaqq4mxXxnN3pCfFjJmy3k0 nzKQBH20hVSBvokRiVg2F6JsHYNoeYq0Y3iu8kbI8Mi7OUedQ8SPYSeoQ578YOljAcHX 3ww7ChGyAjSYWNEpYhVgWuQEvTDxpxVTWopQ2mhEaCI1XGu/i6Ex4Aizms395zLspJsn 5i3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709863954; x=1710468754; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=g0Iscz+9zP+M6pZ3HiQw0Du99YO9OrMyoUgf90D9v7o=; b=EKu1RH7mewYrAIzfHSH6ho910VGPAAiljf/JntHkBr7U0q+HVv8MkhF4faQDctDx0j Zg2YfQkj+d8F9u80IMZfoAzp0SjGJmLpsnZYwQ3B3ISFC6U107BKp7pX8sDyS11E3iD4 ADkhuz6dHRfrU296W3gG6DTWDcIj7b52O78g+8tyHp5hBxQjP3j4k9zwrhEjJjdEl/uc XbW1GEB9JQjQuiYF9hN6h+6M3j9oyBns/LiET1Dlad8ynkNvpJvhlaljc6a8fyKZoOtH D51tfucVHwIu/5jECMK85/AJNd7V3A7wHiM0Jy2PK9Aa48zWqsqzjTrPSwibUpL5YGqJ Jtvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzxtHkDy1hAVJ9T7s22UFbS/WDBj+87lK2imzHg8icgTVfXY7YK Vwkv+bJkW0pUM9YuO8YzVkeSEcY9eSr9Vw1xDasjSq8Me4GFkyZyW3I5a6A2bsWf8b5AuzUlste 49l5Mm8HuXKcVAXvPEHnjuPuZrGYlBH3NdbM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHwdwdm4IhJvZcbljZBqyRFvsfMHIjJtukdaaiQ7/oHQ8BxmkE/pIrSowaz3JPtQhAjCQw0+WfFKqqXpHN9hWk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1aa4:b0:365:1749:cadf with SMTP id l4-20020a056e021aa400b003651749cadfmr24577842ilv.16.1709863954397; Thu, 07 Mar 2024 18:12:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d208136-cf1b-4cbf-8401-aa0b95971372@technologists.com> <78b06488-c8d1-41ef-9d06-9e75426cf4d0@osta.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Lyon Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 18:12:23 -0800 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009dc7a206131cb9fc" Message-ID-Hash: GAOF4G6AYOBYFQJLX2CKDKK4ZIR7744W X-Message-ID-Hash: GAOF4G6AYOBYFQJLX2CKDKK4ZIR7744W X-MailFrom: pugs78@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009dc7a206131cb9fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, I had not seen that. More info about UNIX on UNIVAC than I'd seen before. Who did the C compiler for that? On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:49=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS wr= ote: > Tom you mentioned non-Bell compilers, but also x86, so I can't resist > pointing out: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf > > Among the handful of systems experimented with in these Bell Labs UNIX > porting experiences is the 8086 which was being used for some sort of > internal project at the time. I'm not aware of any artifacts (UNIX nor C= ) > from that port, nor if any 32-bit and beyond x86 compiler technology out > there derives from any of these efforts, but worth mentioning in the > history of C touching Intel platforms. I do seem to recall some discussi= on > here a while back that implied that the SGS suite may have had its genesi= s > in some of these efforts. The internal Bell Labs version of Release 5.0 > has SGS compilers for several BellMAC targets that I think descend from > some of this work. I'd have to go looking for proof though so consider > that anecdotal for now. > > - Matt G. > > > On Thursday, March 7th, 2024 at 4:54 PM, Heinz Lycklama heinz@osta.com > wrote: > > Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based > on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler > for the DEC VAX machine in 1978. > > Heinz > > On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote: > > Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C > on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.) > I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT, > directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few > people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of > the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in > 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler. > > Marc > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15=E2=80=AFPM Charles H Sauer (he/him) > sauer@technologists.com wrote: > > On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh mailto:imp@bsdimp.com > wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14=E2=80=AFPM Tom Lyon mailto:pugs78@gmail.com > wrote: > > For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history > of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and > Snyder at Bell. Especially for x86. Anyone have tales? > Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX? > > MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 > port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various > versions of them survive to the present day. > > It's at bitsavers: > > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar > and > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/ > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/ > > are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C > compilers :) > > Warner > > See, also, > https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html & > http://www.desmet-c.com/. > > When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly > worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K > diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4. > > Charlie > > -- > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com > fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: > https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: > CharlesHSauer > > -- > My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com > > --0000000000009dc7a206131cb9fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, I had not seen that.
More info about UNIX on U= NIVAC than I'd seen before. Who did the C compiler for that?

On Th= u, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:49=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

Tom you mentioned non-Bell compilers, but also x86, so I can&= #39;t resist pointing out: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/w= ww/otherports/newp.pdf

Among the handful of systems experimented with in these Bell Labs UNIX port= ing experiences is the 8086 which was being used for some sort of internal = project at the time.=C2=A0 I'm not aware of any artifacts (UNIX nor C) = from that port, nor if any 32-bit and beyond x86 compiler technology out th= ere derives from any of these efforts, but worth mentioning in the history = of C touching Intel platforms.=C2=A0 I do seem to recall some discussion he= re a while back that implied that the SGS suite may have had its genesis in= some of these efforts.=C2=A0 The internal Bell Labs version of Release 5.0= has SGS compilers for several BellMAC targets that I think descend from so= me of this work.=C2=A0 I'd have to go looking for proof though so consi= der that anecdotal for now.

- Matt G.


On Thursday, March 7th, 2024 at 4:54 PM, Heinz Lycklama heinz@osta.com wrote:

Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.

Heinz

On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:

Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it w= as BDS C on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT, directl= y from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few people. That= was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of the examples = for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in 1985. = It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.

Marc

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15=E2=80=AFPM Charles H Sauer (he/him) sauer@technologists.c= om wrote:

On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
mailto:imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14=E2=80=AFPM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
mailto:pugs78@gmail.c= om> wrote:

For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
Snyder at Bell. Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
versions of them survive to the present day.

It's at bitsavers:

https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar=
https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar and
https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/

are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
compilers :)

Warner

See, also,
https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/= CCompilerHistory.html &
http://www.desmet-c.= com/.

When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly=
worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K=
diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.

Charlie

--
voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sa= uer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

--
My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com

--0000000000009dc7a206131cb9fc--