Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Russ Cox]

i think we all agree that it'd be great
if plan 9 were easier to install, and if
the vga support were better.

we're not disagreeing with you, but writing an os
installation program is difficult and time-consuming.
i spent last may doing almost nothing else.
given another month of work, i bet an even better
one could be written, one that handles cpu servers
and file servers and so on.  but i haven't had time, and
apparently neither has anyone else, inside bell labs
or out.

if you're going to do something about it,
great.  if not, then we're not much better off
than we were before you complained.

russ

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Jim Choate]

To be accurate Russ, I wasn't complaining. Simply stating the reality of
the situation.

And, as for 'complaining'. I don't complain, I either remove the irritant
or fix it.

I am working on it via 'Hangar 18' and the half dozen laptops I've now
gone through trying to get it to work (on hardware it's supposed to work
on mind you). Now I'm down to trying to recover some of the 486's I've got
laying around here because the other dozen machines are all busy doing
something constructive (or isn't supported, not that I'd replace my
AmigaDos machines in the first place). ISA EIDE controllers are a bitch to
find in any sort of quantity. Hangar 18 has about 18 subscribers and at
least three of them have systems up and running. I put up the 'Hangar 18
Policies and Process' (tentative) last nite for review. If all goes well
we should have some sort of public 'community' (for lack of a better word)
by the end of the month.

And we don't have Bell Labs paying for our time and resources (like
$400 a month for a dedicated ISDN w/ a C-class address space to use)...

The reality is that simply because you don't know of it, doesn't mean it
isn't.

And as to 'it's hard', and you people are supposed to be world class
programmers?

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Russ Cox wrote:

> i think we all agree that it'd be great
> if plan 9 were easier to install, and if
> the vga support were better.
>
> we're not disagreeing with you, but writing an os
> installation program is difficult and time-consuming.
> i spent last may doing almost nothing else.
> given another month of work, i bet an even better
> one could be written, one that handles cpu servers
> and file servers and so on.  but i haven't had time, and
> apparently neither has anyone else, inside bell labs
> or out.
>
> if you're going to do something about it,
> great.  if not, then we're not much better off
> than we were before you complained.

    ____________________________________________________________________

       To speak algebraically, Mr. M. is execrable, but Mr. G. is
       (x+1)-ecrable.
                                         Edgar Allan Poe

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[William Josephson]

On Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:44:09PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

> And as to 'it's hard', and you people are supposed to be world class
> programmers?

I'm sure Russ is too professional to rise to such petty bait, but yes
he is a world class programmer.  He is also a full-time undergraduate
with all that that entails.  Why not stop while you are ahead?

 -WJ

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Dave Iafrate - CSCI/F1997]

Hence we see the segmentation between programmers and software engineers.


On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, William Josephson wrote:

> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:45:20 -0400
> From: William Josephson <wkj@eecs.harvard.edu>
> Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels
>
> On Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:44:09PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > And as to 'it's hard', and you people are supposed to be world class
> > programmers?
>
> I'm sure Russ is too professional to rise to such petty bait, but yes
> he is a world class programmer.  He is also a full-time undergraduate
> with all that that entails.  Why not stop while you are ahead?
>
>  -WJ
>

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[David Lukes]

<flame-bait>

> Hence we see the segmentation between programmers and software engineers.

No, we see the bogus dichotomy between so-called programmers and
so-called software engineers when fly-by-wire aircraft control systems
override their pilots and crash airliners.

> one question does anyone find bell labs' documentation a poor disgrace to
> software engineering's design process.

The BTL^H^H^H Lucent documentation is far better than the reams of
vacuous bureacratic drivel which accompanies most so-called
"software engineering" projects.

Also, you use a singular, whereas, like religions,
there are many "software-engineering" "disciplines".

The use of the term "software engineering" to imply a degree
of reliability not present in "programming" is totally bogus:
engineering is not an exact art/science/whatever:
buildings and bridges still fall down,
car manufacturers still need product recalls,
and aircraft, both fly-by-wire and traditional, still fall out of the sky.

</flame-bait>

	Dave.

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Boyd Roberts]

"David Lukes" <davel@luchie-chowchows.demon.co.uk> a crit dans le message
news: 01041016242401.10507@luchie-chowchows.demon.co.uk...
>
> No, we see the bogus dichotomy between so-called programmers and
> so-called software engineers when fly-by-wire aircraft control systems
> override their pilots and crash airliners.


so that's why they never let us work together again?

did we _know_ something _they_ didn't?

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK
Keywords:
Cc:


--
Dennis Davis, BUCS, University of Bath, Bath, BA2 7AY, UK
D.H.Davis@bath.ac.uk

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Dan Cross]

In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010409203706.14587y-100000@einstein.ssz.com> you write:
>The reality is that simply because you don't know of it, doesn't mean it
>isn't.

Right.  See below.

>And as to 'it's hard', and you people are supposed to be world class
>programmers?

This is really rude.  Russ has been nothing but gracious in hearing out
your thoughts on this matter, and doesn't deserve this sort of
response.  In fact, none of the Bell Labs folks do....

There's no mandate which says that they HAVE to share their work with
the rest of the world, and certainly none that says that they have to
spend time packaging it into an easy to swallow pill before doing so.

If you perceive a problem, then continue with pursuing a solution, by
all means.  But don't act as if it should be the rest of the world's
number one priority to help you do so.  Sometimes the problems you see
aren't the ones that matter to other people, and vice versa, as you
yourself have pointed out.

Hmm, there's been a lot said on this.  I'll spare 9fans and myself
further replies.

	- Dan C.

(ps- The Bell Labs folks *are* world class programmers, but that's
evident from their code.)

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Andrey A Mirtchovski]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Dan Cross wrote:

> Hmm, there's been a lot said on this.  I'll spare 9fans and myself
> further replies.
>

worst topic drift ever?

when i put the subject in the original message i definitely didn't have this
ending in mind...

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Boyd Roberts]

"Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu> a crit dans le message news:
200104100233.WAA03526@augusta.math.psu.edu...
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010409203706.14587y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
you write:
>
> >And as to 'it's hard', and you people are supposed to be world class
> >programmers?
>
> This is really rude.  Russ has been nothing but gracious in hearing out
> your thoughts on this matter, and doesn't deserve this sort of
> response.  In fact, none of the Bell Labs folks do....

yeah, russ is something else.  he gets the job done -- politely.

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[jmk]

give it a rest, the stupid armadillo sig is wearing very thin.

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Boyd Roberts]

<jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> a crit dans le message news:
20010410002812.9B63019AA7@mail.cse.psu.edu...
> give it a rest, the stupid armadillo sig is wearing very thin.

nah, armadildo, surely.

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> give it a rest, the stupid armadillo sig is wearing very thin.

To call an Armadillo stupid is an insult to stupid critters.

Re:[9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Matt]

>What drudgery, we start our scripts and away it goes. There is a reason we
>have a foosball table in the middle of our work area...;)

is it not your years of experience as a computer administrator that wrote those scripts

I bet the first time you installed Linux it didn't all happen in 30 minutes

I'm not trying to negate your argument but it seems to me the benchmarks you are using are spurious.

Matt

[9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Matt wrote:

> >What drudgery, we start our scripts and away it goes. There is a reason we
> >have a foosball table in the middle of our work area...;)
>
> is it not your years of experience as a computer administrator that wrote
> those scripts

And others don't have that experience to pass along to new users? Excuse
me but Plan 9 is what 12+ years old and there aren't any significant
automation efforts? Hmmmmm.....

I thank whichever of the Moirai that it's Open Source now and we'll see it
grow instead of stagnate in a 'research' environment.

My motivation had nothing to do with experience. It had to do with
psychology, doing computer maintenance is boring, dull, pointless work
and absolutely in no way, shape, or fashion, what I'm interested in
computers for. I absolutely hate to wash my car or mow my yard too.

> I bet the first time you installed Linux it didn't all happen in 30 minutes

I don't believe I said anything about anything taking '30 minutes'. It
takes somewhere between 2-4 hours depending on which OS we're speaking of.

I started using Linux in the .12 days. If memory serves the first time I
ever used Linux I loaded it on a CompuAdd 316NX laptop (a Samsung based
316SX machine) and we had it running in less time than a 8 hour shift (we
were working the 4-midnite shift). There was no reliable networking at
that point admittedly. Of course I'd already been using computers for more
than 20 years at the time. I believe it took me longer to get gcc working
than the OS.

If you've got a 1'st or 2'nd ed. "Running Linux" laying around look in the
appendix under d/l sites and look in the 512 area code for a system called
'Solar Soyuz Zaibatsu' (ie SSZ)...

> I'm not trying to negate your argument but it seems to me the benchmarks
> you are using are spurious.

What 'benchmarks'? I've simply made the statement that whether an OS is
'research' or 'production' (Don't know about 'spurious' but that
distinction is certainly specious from the sys admin POV - ALL systems
need sys admin attention) anybody with half a lick of sense will share
that experience with others coming down the road later. Well, they will if
they're not lone-gun's or wanting to use it as an IQ test (a very
popular past time apparently)...

Plan 9 is absolutely the most kick-ass OS I've seen and if I were going
to write one it would be quite similar to Plan 9. The only thing standing
in its way now is Plan 9 designers and users.

    ____________________________________________________________________

       To speak algebraically, Mr. M. is execrable, but Mr. G. is
       (x+1)-ecrable.
                                         Edgar Allan Poe

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Boyd Roberts]

"Jim Choate" <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> a crit dans le message news:
Pine.LNX.3.96.1010409190541.14587u-100000@einstein.ssz.com...
> I started using Linux in the .12 days. If memory serves the first time I
> ever used Linux I loaded it on a CompuAdd 316NX laptop (a Samsung based
> 316SX machine) and we had it running in less time than a 8 hour shift (we
> were working the 4-midnite shift). There was no reliable networking at
> that point admittedly. Of course I'd already been using computers for more
> than 20 years at the time. I believe it took me longer to get gcc working
> than the OS.


get a grip.  you have forgotten the history.

i hacked ctrl-s/q flow control into the 6th ed on a an '11/34 with a
spare RK05 pack, while unix not much has _really_ changed since 7th
ed, except for the bloat.

linsux: how many ptrace or /proc style interfaces has it got?

where did /proc come from?  8th ed, ~1984.

how many 8th ed licences where issued and where?

'we' had an 8th ed port up in a few weeks in 1985, working at
night 'cos during the day the basser staff/students/us
had to do get some work done during the day.

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] micro vs monolithic kernels

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

    Jim> Computers are SUPPOSED to take the drudgery out of ones
    Jim> life...

Doing 15/30/whatever_speed_thats_faster_than_the_other_guy minute
installations of NT/Linux/Solaris/* by rote pretty much _is_ the
definition of drudgery, in my books. Having to engage my brain to get
Plan9 installed isn't drudgery, it's stimulating.

Catering to the clueless merely attracts them. Why would we want
to do that? (I should probably point out that the preceeding
question was rhetorical ...)

--lyndon

[9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
>
>     Jim> Computers are SUPPOSED to take the drudgery out of ones
>     Jim> life...
>
> Doing 15/30/whatever_speed_thats_faster_than_the_other_guy minute
> installations of NT/Linux/Solaris/* by rote pretty much _is_ the
> definition of drudgery, in my books. Having to engage my brain to get
> Plan9 installed isn't drudgery, it's stimulating.

What drudgery, we start our scripts and away it goes. There is a reason we
have a foosball table in the middle of our work area...;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

       To speak algebraically, Mr. M. is execrable, but Mr. G. is
       (x+1)-ecrable.
                                         Edgar Allan Poe

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: micro vs monolithic kernels

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:

    Jim> What drudgery, we start our scripts and away it goes. There
    Jim> is a reason we have a foosball table in the middle of our
    Jim> work area...;)

Finally! you're starting to make some sense :-)