[9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[pavel.klinkovsky]

Hi all,

In Plan9 I missed the simple way to repeat previous (or previous of
previous etc.) command in the terminal.
I prepared a very small (an stupid) program to allow that.

Compile the following source code and run it in that way:
8.out | rc -i

You can insert the commands, and if you want to walk through the
"history", just press CTRL+K (backward) or CTRL+L (foreward).

That is all, folks. ;-)

Pavel


#include <u.h>
#include <libc.h>

enum
{
	KCtrlD = 0x04,
	KCtrlK = 0x0B,
	KCtrlL = 0x0C,
	KDelete = 0x7F,

	MaxLen = 128,
	MaxDepth = 10
};

struct Line
{
	int len;
	char buf[MaxLen];
};
typedef struct Line Line;

void
main(void)
{
	// Console control file descriptor
	int cfd;
	// End flag
	int end = 0;
	// Actual read character
	char c;
	// Array of BackSpaces
	char bs[MaxLen];
	// Array of Lines
	Line line[MaxDepth];
	// Index of actual line
	int act = 0;
	// Index of stored line
	int stored = 0;

	memset(bs, '\b', sizeof(bs));
	memset(line, 0, sizeof(line));

	cfd = open("/dev/consctl", OWRITE);
	if (cfd < 0)
		sysfatal("%r");
	write(cfd, "rawon", 5);

	while (!end) {
		if (read(0, &c, sizeof(c)) < 0)
			sysfatal("%r");

		switch (c) {
		case KCtrlD:
		case KDelete:
			end++;
			break;

		case '\b':
			if (line[act].len > 0) {
				line[act].len--;
				write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
			}
			break;

		case '\n':
			if (line[act].len > 0)
				write(1, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
			write(1, &c, sizeof(c));
			write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
			act = stored = (act + 1) % MaxDepth;
			line[act].len = 0;
			break;

		case KCtrlK:
			write(2, bs, line[act].len);
			stored = (stored + MaxDepth - 1) % MaxDepth;
			line[act] = line[stored];
			write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
			break;

		case KCtrlL:
			write(2, bs, line[act].len);
			stored = (stored + 1) % MaxDepth;
			line[act] = line[stored];
			write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
			break;

		case -0x11:
			read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
			read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
			break;

		default:
			if (line[act].len < MaxLen) {
				line[act].buf[line[act].len++] = c;
				write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
			}
			break;
		}
	}

	close(cfd);

	exits(nil);
}

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

Russ posted two script called " and "" time ago on this list,
IIRC.


On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:03 AM, pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com
<pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> In Plan9 I missed the simple way to repeat previous (or previous of
> previous etc.) command in the terminal.
> I prepared a very small (an stupid) program to allow that.
>
> Compile the following source code and run it in that way:
> 8.out | rc -i
>
> You can insert the commands, and if you want to walk through the
> "history", just press CTRL+K (backward) or CTRL+L (foreward).
>
> That is all, folks. ;-)
>
> Pavel
>
>
> #include <u.h>
> #include <libc.h>
>
> enum
> {
>        KCtrlD = 0x04,
>        KCtrlK = 0x0B,
>        KCtrlL = 0x0C,
>        KDelete = 0x7F,
>
>        MaxLen = 128,
>        MaxDepth = 10
> };
>
> struct Line
> {
>        int len;
>        char buf[MaxLen];
> };
> typedef struct Line Line;
>
> void
> main(void)
> {
>        // Console control file descriptor
>        int cfd;
>        // End flag
>        int end = 0;
>        // Actual read character
>        char c;
>        // Array of BackSpaces
>        char bs[MaxLen];
>        // Array of Lines
>        Line line[MaxDepth];
>        // Index of actual line
>        int act = 0;
>        // Index of stored line
>        int stored = 0;
>
>        memset(bs, '\b', sizeof(bs));
>        memset(line, 0, sizeof(line));
>
>        cfd = open("/dev/consctl", OWRITE);
>        if (cfd < 0)
>                sysfatal("%r");
>        write(cfd, "rawon", 5);
>
>        while (!end) {
>                if (read(0, &c, sizeof(c)) < 0)
>                        sysfatal("%r");
>
>                switch (c) {
>                case KCtrlD:
>                case KDelete:
>                        end++;
>                        break;
>
>                case '\b':
>                        if (line[act].len > 0) {
>                                line[act].len--;
>                                write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
>                        }
>                        break;
>
>                case '\n':
>                        if (line[act].len > 0)
>                                write(1, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
>                        write(1, &c, sizeof(c));
>                        write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
>                        act = stored = (act + 1) % MaxDepth;
>                        line[act].len = 0;
>                        break;
>
>                case KCtrlK:
>                        write(2, bs, line[act].len);
>                        stored = (stored + MaxDepth - 1) % MaxDepth;
>                        line[act] = line[stored];
>                        write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
>                        break;
>
>                case KCtrlL:
>                        write(2, bs, line[act].len);
>                        stored = (stored + 1) % MaxDepth;
>                        line[act] = line[stored];
>                        write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
>                        break;
>
>                case -0x11:
>                        read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
>                        read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
>                        break;
>
>                default:
>                        if (line[act].len < MaxLen) {
>                                line[act].buf[line[act].len++] = c;
>                                write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
>                        }
>                        break;
>                }
>        }
>
>        close(cfd);
>
>        exits(nil);
> }
>
>

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Pietro Gagliardi]

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Erik modified rc directly to add a history system.

On Jan 23, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Francisco J Ballesteros wrote:

> Russ posted two script called " and "" time ago on this list,
> IIRC.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:03 AM, pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com
> <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In Plan9 I missed the simple way to repeat previous (or previous of
>> previous etc.) command in the terminal.
>> I prepared a very small (an stupid) program to allow that.
>>
>> Compile the following source code and run it in that way:
>> 8.out | rc -i
>>
>> You can insert the commands, and if you want to walk through the
>> "history", just press CTRL+K (backward) or CTRL+L (foreward).
>>
>> That is all, folks. ;-)
>>
>> Pavel
>>
>>
>> #include <u.h>
>> #include <libc.h>
>>
>> enum
>> {
>>       KCtrlD = 0x04,
>>       KCtrlK = 0x0B,
>>       KCtrlL = 0x0C,
>>       KDelete = 0x7F,
>>
>>       MaxLen = 128,
>>       MaxDepth = 10
>> };
>>
>> struct Line
>> {
>>       int len;
>>       char buf[MaxLen];
>> };
>> typedef struct Line Line;
>>
>> void
>> main(void)
>> {
>>       // Console control file descriptor
>>       int cfd;
>>       // End flag
>>       int end = 0;
>>       // Actual read character
>>       char c;
>>       // Array of BackSpaces
>>       char bs[MaxLen];
>>       // Array of Lines
>>       Line line[MaxDepth];
>>       // Index of actual line
>>       int act = 0;
>>       // Index of stored line
>>       int stored = 0;
>>
>>       memset(bs, '\b', sizeof(bs));
>>       memset(line, 0, sizeof(line));
>>
>>       cfd = open("/dev/consctl", OWRITE);
>>       if (cfd < 0)
>>               sysfatal("%r");
>>       write(cfd, "rawon", 5);
>>
>>       while (!end) {
>>               if (read(0, &c, sizeof(c)) < 0)
>>                       sysfatal("%r");
>>
>>               switch (c) {
>>               case KCtrlD:
>>               case KDelete:
>>                       end++;
>>                       break;
>>
>>               case '\b':
>>                       if (line[act].len > 0) {
>>                               line[act].len--;
>>                               write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
>>                       }
>>                       break;
>>
>>               case '\n':
>>                       if (line[act].len > 0)
>>                               write(1, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
>>                       write(1, &c, sizeof(c));
>>                       write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
>>                       act = stored = (act + 1) % MaxDepth;
>>                       line[act].len = 0;
>>                       break;
>>
>>               case KCtrlK:
>>                       write(2, bs, line[act].len);
>>                       stored = (stored + MaxDepth - 1) % MaxDepth;
>>                       line[act] = line[stored];
>>                       write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
>>                       break;
>>
>>               case KCtrlL:
>>                       write(2, bs, line[act].len);
>>                       stored = (stored + 1) % MaxDepth;
>>                       line[act] = line[stored];
>>                       write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
>>                       break;
>>
>>               case -0x11:
>>                       read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
>>                       read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
>>                       break;
>>
>>               default:
>>                       if (line[act].len < MaxLen) {
>>                               line[act].buf[line[act].len++] = c;
>>                               write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
>>                       }
>>                       break;
>>               }
>>       }
>>
>>       close(cfd);
>>
>>       exits(nil);
>> }
>>
>>
>


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Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Pietro Gagliardi]

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This code is interesting. I do see one problem: commands that take up
more than one line won't be stored in the history properly, so each
line will get its own entry. But this is a nice use of pipes!

On Jan 23, 2009, at 5:03 AM, pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> In Plan9 I missed the simple way to repeat previous (or previous of
> previous etc.) command in the terminal.
> I prepared a very small (an stupid) program to allow that.
>
> Compile the following source code and run it in that way:
> 8.out | rc -i
>
> You can insert the commands, and if you want to walk through the
> "history", just press CTRL+K (backward) or CTRL+L (foreward).
>
> That is all, folks. ;-)
>
> Pavel
>
>
> #include <u.h>
> #include <libc.h>
>
> enum
> {
> 	KCtrlD = 0x04,
> 	KCtrlK = 0x0B,
> 	KCtrlL = 0x0C,
> 	KDelete = 0x7F,
>
> 	MaxLen = 128,
> 	MaxDepth = 10
> };
>
> struct Line
> {
> 	int len;
> 	char buf[MaxLen];
> };
> typedef struct Line Line;
>
> void
> main(void)
> {
> 	// Console control file descriptor
> 	int cfd;
> 	// End flag
> 	int end = 0;
> 	// Actual read character
> 	char c;
> 	// Array of BackSpaces
> 	char bs[MaxLen];
> 	// Array of Lines
> 	Line line[MaxDepth];
> 	// Index of actual line
> 	int act = 0;
> 	// Index of stored line
> 	int stored = 0;
>
> 	memset(bs, '\b', sizeof(bs));
> 	memset(line, 0, sizeof(line));
>
> 	cfd = open("/dev/consctl", OWRITE);
> 	if (cfd < 0)
> 		sysfatal("%r");
> 	write(cfd, "rawon", 5);
>
> 	while (!end) {
> 		if (read(0, &c, sizeof(c)) < 0)
> 			sysfatal("%r");
>
> 		switch (c) {
> 		case KCtrlD:
> 		case KDelete:
> 			end++;
> 			break;
>
> 		case '\b':
> 			if (line[act].len > 0) {
> 				line[act].len--;
> 				write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			}
> 			break;
>
> 		case '\n':
> 			if (line[act].len > 0)
> 				write(1, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
> 			write(1, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			act = stored = (act + 1) % MaxDepth;
> 			line[act].len = 0;
> 			break;
>
> 		case KCtrlK:
> 			write(2, bs, line[act].len);
> 			stored = (stored + MaxDepth - 1) % MaxDepth;
> 			line[act] = line[stored];
> 			write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
> 			break;
>
> 		case KCtrlL:
> 			write(2, bs, line[act].len);
> 			stored = (stored + 1) % MaxDepth;
> 			line[act] = line[stored];
> 			write(2, line[act].buf, line[act].len);
> 			break;
>
> 		case -0x11:
> 			read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			break;
>
> 		default:
> 			if (line[act].len < MaxLen) {
> 				line[act].buf[line[act].len++] = c;
> 				write(2, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			}
> 			break;
> 		}
> 	}
>
> 	close(cfd);
>
> 	exits(nil);
> }
>


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Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[roger peppe]

one problem with this approach is that you won't be able
to use mouse editing as usual on the command line,
as the program grabs each keystroke as it's typed.

that negates one of the major advantages of rio/9term.

if you were to do this, a better place would be in rio itself
(the down side being that rio can't distinguish between input
to different programs, so stuff pasted to "cat>somefile" goes
in the same buffer as your rc commands.)

i seem to remember that russ's " and "" commands (which
i've failed to find) just scan the console text for lines that start with the
current prompt - which has its own disadvantages.

i don't think there's a really good answer (yet?)

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> i seem to remember that russ's " and "" commands (which
> i've failed to find) just scan the console text for lines that start with the
> current prompt - which has its own disadvantages.

" is in my copy of p9p.

the history i added to rc is after the history added
to byron's rc which i'm told is after 8th ed unix.
but it's not the same.  (and it's definately not
a readline-style thing.)

but i don't think i use history like most people do.
i use it to remember stuff i can remember i did, but
can't remember how i did it. sometimes i'm guilty of
using history to avoid cut-and-paste.

the history programs are - which runs the last command
to match its arguments. as in "- 8.out". and -p which
prints, rather than executes the match.

the rc part is a line added to the .y call whistory on
full productions, the whistory function and a small
change to deparsing (n1=';').  so it's interesting to note
1.  multi-line productions are turned into 1 liners.
2.  all rc's append to the same file.

#2 seems like a drawback, but it's really a bonus.
the general use case is something like this.  i know
i generated a certificate for a year ago, i need another
one, but all i remember was that there were a lot of
steps.  generally, information in $history remembers
enough.

the source for the history program is
and a well-aged copy of rc with history:
/n/sources/contrib/quanstro/src/history.c
/n/sources/contrib/quanstro/src/futharc.tbz

futharc has a few other changes that you might
find jarring.  for example,
	x=(1
	2
	3)

and there's a break, as in instead of this:

	done = ()
	while(~ $#done 0 && ! ~ $#* 0){
		if(! test -f $dst.$1){
			if(! cp $src/rawunix $dst.$1)
				exit copy
			done = 1
		}
		shift
	}

this

	for(i)
		if(! test -f $dst.$i){
			if(! cp $src/rawunix $dst.$i)
				exit copy
			break
		}

subscript ranges like $x(2-) have been added to
rc already, so that's no longer wierd.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[pavel.klinkovsky]

> that negates one of the major advantages of rio/9term.
On the other hand, my "PlanKey" provides command history also to the
other programs, different from rc, e.g.:
8.out | bc

;-)

Pavel

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[pavel.klinkovsky]

(I have already issued my answer, but not present... What do I do
wrong?)

> that negates one of the major advantages of rio/9term.
On the other hand, "PlanKey" offers the command history also to the
other programs (different from rc), e.g.:
8.out | bc

;-)

Pavel

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[cej]

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> i seem to remember that russ's " and "" commands (which
> i've failed to find) just scan the console text for lines that start with the
> current prompt - which has its own disadvantages.

I have copies of those commands, if anybody is interested...
++pac


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Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Jan 23, 2009, at 2:03 AM, pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> In Plan9 I missed the simple way to repeat previous (or previous of
> previous etc.) command in the terminal.
> I prepared a very small (an stupid) program to allow that.
>
> Compile the following source code and run it in that way:
> 8.out | rc -i
>
> You can insert the commands, and if you want to walk through the
> "history", just press CTRL+K (backward) or CTRL+L (foreward).

Nice!

> 		case -0x11:
> 			read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			read(0, &c, sizeof(c));
> 			break;

What's -0x11 ?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Jan 23, 2009, at 4:56 AM, roger peppe wrote:
> one problem with this approach is that you won't be able
> to use mouse editing as usual on the command line,
> as the program grabs each keystroke as it's typed.

Do you enjoy mouse editing? May be I'm just an old
TTY junkie, but for me mouse is a device that lets me
switch between Xterms with screens(1) in them ;-)

On a serious note: do you guys ever edit text that
is way after the output point?

> i don't think there's a really good answer (yet?)

In the TTY world, you can add readline even to the
things that don't use it:
    % socat READLINE EXEC:'ftp ftp.sun.com',pty,setsid,ctty
More on this here:
     http://www.dest-unreach.org/socat/doc/socat.html#EXAMPLES

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> On a serious note: do you guys ever edit text that
> is way after the output point?

i do.  in hold mode.  that's generally how i compose
email when not using acme.

> > i don't think there's a really good answer (yet?)
>
> In the in the /disgusting unix/ world, you can add readline even to the
> things that don't use it:
>     % socat READLINE EXEC:'ftp ftp.sun.com',pty,setsid,ctty
> More on this here:
>      http://www.dest-unreach.org/socat/doc/socat.html#EXAMPLES

there, fixed that for ya! ☺

let's list some of the crunchy stuff this requires
1.  dynamic linking
2.  and ron's favorite, link editing
2.5 magic goo.  how does readline know what functions to steal?
3.  ttys
4.  $PATH.

by the way, how does quoting work in that command line?
say i want the literal argument "$1<tab>" to the socatt'ed
executable.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Jan 26, 2009, at 7:42 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>> On a serious note: do you guys ever edit text that
>> is way after the output point?
>
> i do.  in hold mode.  that's generally how i compose
> email when not using acme.

Yeah, that's about the only thing that is useful to me
as well. The rest requires too much mousing around
and in general it is quicker for me to compose the
command line anew rather than trying to edit the
bygones.

>>> i don't think there's a really good answer (yet?)
>>
>> In the in the /disgusting unix/ world, you can add readline even to  
>> the
>> things that don't use it:
>>    % socat READLINE EXEC:'ftp ftp.sun.com',pty,setsid,ctty
>> More on this here:
>>     http://www.dest-unreach.org/socat/doc/socat.html#EXAMPLES
>
> there, fixed that for ya! ☺

Nice, but I feel your sarcasm is misplaced.

> let's list some of the crunchy stuff this requires
> 1.  dynamic linking
> 2.  and ron's favorite, link editing

Wrong! Mine is statically compiled ;-)

> 2.5 magic goo.  how does readline know what functions to steal?

Wrong! Its just all a single buffer.

> 3.  ttys
> 4.  $PATH.

What's that supposed to mean? Yeah, there's PATH on UNIX.
How horrible!

But anyway, looks like you've goofed up on 3.5 out of 4.5 ;-)

> by the way, how does quoting work in that command line?
> say i want the literal argument "$1<tab>" to the socatt'ed
> executable.

Quoting, obviously, depends on the shell you're using. You
are welcome to use rc where the quoting patterns are much
more regular.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Akshat Kumar]

2009/1/26 Roman Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com>:
...
> Yeah, that's about the only thing that is useful to me
> as well. The rest requires too much mousing around
> and in general it is quicker for me to compose the
> command line anew rather than trying to edit the
> bygones.
>

There are normally two cases in a rio rc window
with excessive output and commands floating
about:
(1) you want to retrieve a prior command and know
quite exactly what it is, or unique keywords to
identify it, but simply don't have the patience,
will-power, eyes, hands, whatever, to type it again
or go looking for it;
(2) you know the general output a command produced
but no clue as to what got you there, and due to
arthiritis or bleeding eyes syndrome, you cannot
be bothered to scroll up and find it, wa-wa... --
you want to retrieve a prior command.

In either case, a possible way of conveniently
retrieving ~ would be to make a script that looks
for a given keyword, of either (1) or (2), in the window's
file (/mnt/.../... -- I'm not on Plan 9 right now) containing
that scroll back information, and outputting possible
command choices in the style of /bin/kill and friends.
Then, in the case of (1), you can pipe it (or just the first
line of output, if the same command was entered
multiple times) to rc directly, or in the case of (2),
go through your choices, edit the commands, or
whatever, and `send'. This may have other benefits,
and it flows naturally from the Plan 9 style/functionality.

If I'm recycling ideas here, feel free to bitch.

normally something good comes of it anyways,
ak

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Akshat Kumar]

yeah, yeah, Russ had " and "" -- maybe
this was justification for his ideas,
or perhaps some additional functionality
some might find useful

whatever it was, this self-reply was certainly
self-justification -- my appologies
ak

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Russ Cox]

> Do you enjoy mouse editing? May be I'm just an old
> TTY junkie, but for me mouse is a device that lets me
> switch between Xterms with screens(1) in them ;-)

This particular topic has been discussed to death in the past.
Forsyth had a particularly lucid summary of a study by Tognazzi
showing that mouse editing was faster but that keyboard editing
felt faster:

it was something like this: the use of keys+commands
required a higher level of mental planning to organise the interaction,
which apparently obscures the perception of the passage of time--think
of being deeply engaged in something and being surprised when you look
at a clock--
whereas the use of the mouse was done at a lower, mechanical level that
left the mind free for higher things, such as complaining about the mouse.

http://9fans.net/archive/2002/04/313

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Pavel Klinkovsky]

> What's -0x11 ?
The ugly way how to filter-out the key "Insert".

Pavel

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 22:35 -0800, Akshat Kumar wrote:
> 2009/1/26 Roman Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com>:
> ...
> > Yeah, that's about the only thing that is useful to me
> > as well. The rest requires too much mousing around
> > and in general it is quicker for me to compose the
> > command line anew rather than trying to edit the
> > bygones.
> >
>
> There are normally two cases in a rio rc window
> with excessive output and commands floating
> about:
> (1) you want to retrieve a prior command and know
> quite exactly what it is, or unique keywords to
> identify it, but simply don't have the patience,
> will-power, eyes, hands, whatever, to type it again
> or go looking for it;

I often wished rio windows had "Find Prev" "Find Next"
functionality so that at least I can navigate all that
text that it holds simply with my mouse.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> I often wished rio windows had "Find Prev" "Find Next"
> functionality so that at least I can navigate all that
> text that it holds simply with my mouse.

http://9fans.net/archive/2006/08/366

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 15:10 -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > I often wished rio windows had "Find Prev" "Find Next"
> > functionality so that at least I can navigate all that
> > text that it holds simply with my mouse.
>
> http://9fans.net/archive/2006/08/366

Interesting! Two questions though:
   1. Do you still have it? 'cause:
    term% ls /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9term*
    ls: /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9term*: '/n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9term*' does not exist

   2. Has something like that ever made it into rio propper?
   Or was the feature deemed to obscure to bother?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 23:09 -0800, Russ Cox wrote:
> > Do you enjoy mouse editing? May be I'm just an old
> > TTY junkie, but for me mouse is a device that lets me
> > switch between Xterms with screens(1) in them ;-)
>
> This particular topic has been discussed to death in the past.

It sure was ;-) But...

> Forsyth had a particularly lucid summary of a study by Tognazzi
> showing that mouse editing was faster but that keyboard editing
> felt faster:

... I've seen this study and I tend to believe it. But there's a gotcha:
the kind of work that I and other software engineers do with computers
is almost orthogonal to what the study was focusing on. I don't believe
anybody else, but engineers, spend the majority of time dealing with
text.

I only wish Apple could commission such a study with a focus group
consisting of a diverse set of coders.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 14:12, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-01-26 at 23:09 -0800, Russ Cox wrote:
>> > Do you enjoy mouse editing? May be I'm just an old
>> > TTY junkie, but for me mouse is a device that lets me
>> > switch between Xterms with screens(1) in them ;-)
>>
>> This particular topic has been discussed to death in the past.
>
> It sure was ;-) But...
>
>> Forsyth had a particularly lucid summary of a study by Tognazzi
>> showing that mouse editing was faster but that keyboard editing
>> felt faster:
>
> ... I've seen this study and I tend to believe it. But there's a gotcha:
> the kind of work that I and other software engineers do with computers
> is almost orthogonal to what the study was focusing on. I don't believe
> anybody else, but engineers, spend the majority of time dealing with
> text.

Who do you think Plan 9 was designed for and by?

Maybe you should try using the system without all your preconceived
notions of what should and should not be.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> Interesting! Two questions though:
>    1. Do you still have it? 'cause:
>     term% ls /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9term*
>     ls: /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9term*: '/n/sources/contrib/quanstro/9term*' does not exist

they have moved to the p9p directory
/n/sources/contrib/quanstro/p9p/9term*

>    2. Has something like that ever made it into rio propper?
>    Or was the feature deemed to obscure to bother?

it was something i thought i needed a few years ago.
i don't use p9p very much anymore and i haven't felt
the need for it in plan 9.  i think it would be pretty
easy to port.

i also added some code that eats ansi/xterm escapes.
when i upgraded my p9p install recently, i dropped
a number of my p9p hacks.  9term.look was on the
chopping block, but the escape-eating saved it.

supposedly, using nobs for a pager and setting the
term to dumb is enough.  evidently, i'm doing it
wrong.  python tools just love spitting out goofy
escapes.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 14:25 -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> > ... I've seen this study and I tend to believe it. But there's a gotcha:
> > the kind of work that I and other software engineers do with computers
> > is almost orthogonal to what the study was focusing on. I don't believe
> > anybody else, but engineers, spend the majority of time dealing with
> > text.
>
> Who do you think Plan 9 was designed for and by?

For researches by researches. You have a different explanation?

> Maybe you should try using the system without all your preconceived
> notions of what should and should not be.

I'm using 9vx on a daily basis (and there used to be a certain level
of 9term, but it had declined now). I've been using Plan9 in one
form or the other since 2000. Do my notions still seem preconceived
to you, or can we, please, move on?

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 14:31, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 14:25 -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
>> > ... I've seen this study and I tend to believe it. But there's a gotcha:
>> > the kind of work that I and other software engineers do with computers
>> > is almost orthogonal to what the study was focusing on. I don't believe
>> > anybody else, but engineers, spend the majority of time dealing with
>> > text.
>>
>> Who do you think Plan 9 was designed for and by?
>
> For researches by researches. You have a different explanation?

By programmers for programmers.

>> Maybe you should try using the system without all your preconceived
>> notions of what should and should not be.
>
> I'm using 9vx on a daily basis (and there used to be a certain level
> of 9term, but it had declined now). I've been using Plan9 in one
> form or the other since 2000. Do my notions still seem preconceived
> to you, or can we, please, move on?

I could care less about your usage patterns, honestly. Your notions
seem preconceived purely based on your commentary over the last month.

No need to reply. This is my last post on the subject.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 14:43 -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 14:31, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 14:25 -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> >> > ... I've seen this study and I tend to believe it. But there's a gotcha:
> >> > the kind of work that I and other software engineers do with computers
> >> > is almost orthogonal to what the study was focusing on. I don't believe
> >> > anybody else, but engineers, spend the majority of time dealing with
> >> > text.
> >>
> >> Who do you think Plan 9 was designed for and by?
> >
> > For researches by researches. You have a different explanation?
>
> By programmers for programmers.

Are you a programmer? Care to give pointers to the projects you've
been on?

> No need to reply. This is my last post on the subject.

I get it! You are not a programmer -- you are a phone prankster.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[sqweek]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:26 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> supposedly, using nobs for a pager and setting the
> term to dumb is enough.  evidently, i'm doing it
> wrong.  python tools just love spitting out goofy
> escapes.

 rm /usr/lib/python*/lib-dynload/readline.so
-sqweek

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[sqweek]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> I don't believe anybody else, but engineers, spend
> the majority of time dealing with text.

 code is text. data is text.
-sqweek

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 14:50, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
>
> Are you a programmer? Care to give pointers to the projects you've
> been on?

I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you. Check the archives.

> I get it! You are not a programmer -- you are a phone prankster.

Uh . . . yeah. No.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 15:11 -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 14:50, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> >
> > Are you a programmer? Care to give pointers to the projects you've
> > been on?
>
> I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you. Check the archives.

But you did! You told me to check the archives ;-) And you lied too.
How adorable.

Now, if you have something constructive to say, please say it.
If the only reason you came here is to get the kids off your
lawn -- just beat it old man. Eris has more sense in what she
posts here.

Thanks,
Roman.

P.S. I apologize for the rest of list, but I just can't
stand the ivory tower attitude. Even if I am unworthy
of Plan9 wisdom, I would like that to be articulated,
not spitted out.

P.P.S. As for me -- this is my last email in this thread.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

On Tue Jan 27 17:59:41 EST 2009, sqweek@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:26 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > supposedly, using nobs for a pager and setting the
> > term to dumb is enough.  evidently, i'm doing it
> > wrong.  python tools just love spitting out goofy
> > escapes.
>
>  rm /usr/lib/python*/lib-dynload/readline.so

sorry.  that wasn't very clear.  by python tools,
i mean like the init scripts on my linux machine.
it's their colorized and redrawing output that
causes trouble.  i fixed that a few times, but
there were other tools that caused trouble
and i had to refix things with each update.
it degenerated into wack-a-mole programming.

totally ot.  what's with python and the spinning
cursor?  woz called.  he wants his APPLE ][
hack back.  ☺

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Anthony Sorace]

Roman  wrote:
//   2. Has something like that ever made it into rio propper?
//   Or was the feature deemed to obscure to bother?

years ago, someone put "Look" in the rio button two menu. the
objection (at least the one i was told) was that it made the menu too
long, which i think was true. some time later (perhaps punctuated by
the change in rio's resize behavior? or the 8½ → rio transition?) i
found the patch and updated it. that was also years (7-ish) ago, and
my code is gone.

anyway, the point is it's been done, wasn't too hard, and could be
done again. every once in a while i think about doing it again, but
it's too low on the priority list.

personally, i agree it makes the button 2 menu too long. i'd remove
cut, paste, and probably snarf, since i almost always do them by
chording anyway.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 15:40, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> You told me to check the archives ;-)

So I did. Maybe our definitions of 'pissing contest' differ.

> And you lied too.

I did?

> How adorable.

I aim to please and entertain.

> Now, if you have something constructive to say, please say it.
> If the only reason you came here is to get the kids off your
> lawn -- just beat it old man. Eris has more sense in what she
> posts here.

Old man? I don't think I resemble that remark.

It seems we've gotten off on the wrong foot. Communication can be
tricky through email. There's no sense in hurling insults at me. I
don't think I did anything to deserve that.

By no means do I feel that anyone is 'unworthy' of using Plan 9 or
gaining 'wisdom' from it. I try to encourage any and all interested in
using, developing, and taking away lessons from it, to do so. I am of
the mind that code speaks louder than endless pontification, and that
reading the source and list archives can answer a lot of questions. In
the case of Plan 9, reading the source is also a joy because it's easy
to follow.

Is that constructive enough for you?

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[lucio]

> personally, i agree it makes the button 2 menu too long. i'd remove
> cut, paste, and probably snarf, since i almost always do them by
> chording anyway.

That is a good suggestion.  Look, Prev and Next would all be useful
and long menus are only a problem on small screens.  I keep using
Snarf, I think there are some conditions when it is actually needed or
at least much simpler than 1-sweep, +2, +3.

++L

PS: Added to my long list of things to do on a rainy day.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Eris Discordia]

> Eris has more sense in what she posts here.

Having become _the_ criterion for making no sense gives me a certain sense
of uniqueness I had never felt before. The therapy's working after all,
Skip Tavakkolian.

Don't mind this, by the way. It's off the topic of this thread. Or, in
9fans tradition, "sorry for the noise."

--On Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:40 PM -0800 "Roman V. Shaposhnik"
<rvs@sun.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 15:11 -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 14:50, Roman V. Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Are you a programmer? Care to give pointers to the projects you've
>> > been on?
>>
>> I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you. Check the
>> archives.
>
> But you did! You told me to check the archives ;-) And you lied too.
> How adorable.
>
> Now, if you have something constructive to say, please say it.
> If the only reason you came here is to get the kids off your
> lawn -- just beat it old man. Eris has more sense in what she
> posts here.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> P.S. I apologize for the rest of list, but I just can't
> stand the ivory tower attitude. Even if I am unworthy
> of Plan9 wisdom, I would like that to be articulated,
> not spitted out.
>
> P.P.S. As for me -- this is my last email in this thread.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> That is a good suggestion.  Look, Prev and Next would all be useful
> and long menus are only a problem on small screens.  I keep using

i find the long menus troublesome on all screens.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Joel C. Salomon]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:59 AM,  <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
>> personally, i agree it makes the button 2 menu too long. i'd remove
>> cut, paste, and probably snarf, since i almost always do them by
>> chording anyway.
>
> That is a good suggestion.  Look, Prev and Next would all be useful
> and long menus are only a problem on small screens.  I keep using
> Snarf, I think there are some conditions when it is actually needed or
> at least much simpler than 1-sweep, +2, +3.

Here's a crazy thought: how about 2D menus?

	cut
	paste
	snarf
prev	plumb	next
	send
	scroll

(Assuming plumb was the most recently used option.)
This leaves the basic menu as-is, and adds the new options as if they
were "mouse gestures": for "next", middle-click, move mouse a drop
right, release; &c. I wouldn't add more than one option on either side
of the menu, but as I've laid it out there is no more need to look at
the menu to accomplish what you want, or think about what's there,
than there is now.

—Joel
<ducks for cover>

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

2d menus won't work if there are more than, say, 4 or 6 options.
I learned that after experimenting with omero and olive.
They can be more convenient than regular menus, but you must still
limit the number of options.


On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Joel C. Salomon
<joelcsalomon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:59 AM,  <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
>>> personally, i agree it makes the button 2 menu too long. i'd remove
>>> cut, paste, and probably snarf, since i almost always do them by
>>> chording anyway.
>>
>> That is a good suggestion.  Look, Prev and Next would all be useful
>> and long menus are only a problem on small screens.  I keep using
>> Snarf, I think there are some conditions when it is actually needed or
>> at least much simpler than 1-sweep, +2, +3.
>
> Here's a crazy thought: how about 2D menus?
>
>        cut
>        paste
>        snarf
> prev    plumb   next
>        send
>        scroll
>
> (Assuming plumb was the most recently used option.)
> This leaves the basic menu as-is, and adds the new options as if they
> were "mouse gestures": for "next", middle-click, move mouse a drop
> right, release; &c. I wouldn't add more than one option on either side
> of the menu, but as I've laid it out there is no more need to look at
> the menu to accomplish what you want, or think about what's there,
> than there is now.
>
> —Joel
> <ducks for cover>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Akshat Kumar]

Yes, it is more about the number of options than
anything else.

Ever seen desktop menus on FVWM, XFCE,
etc.? Disgusting -- and overly complex.
In Plan 9, we like keeping just the essentials,
but then the problem is that the essentials are
different for everyone else and their mothers.

It turns out, a great coding technique is
convincing everyone else as to what's
essential. It's a little like how mint is the
best ice cream flavour...


ever
ak

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

On Wed Jan 28 19:28:29 EST 2009, akumar@mail.nanosouffle.net wrote:
> Yes, it is more about the number of options than
> anything else.
>

i go a little further.  after using acme, menus sure feel
clunky.  right click in 9term behaving as in acme would be
a bonus in my book.  even better would be raw mode
for win.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[cej]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 251 bytes --]




>> Yes, it is more about the number of options than
>> anything else.
>> 

>i go a little further.  after using acme, menus sure feel
>clunky.  [cut]

How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?
thanks,
++pac


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Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Anthony Sorace]

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:49 AM,  <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:

> How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?

Acme very deeply believes that everything's just text. It would be
substantial effort to get it to be any more universal than that. I'm
aware of at least two independent efforts by very smart people who
stalled at about the same place.

>From a UI design perspective, it's not clear what it ought to look
like. More strongly, I'm not really convinced there *is* a good way
for a UI like that to work. You'd have all the problems the X11 tiled
window managers have, and if you don't separately provide for either
"floating" windows (as some of them do) or horribly throw tiles
around, things like viewing large postscript documents is going to be
hella disruptive.

I love acme, but I think rio's the right starting place for GUI
things. Maybe just move the menu into a pre-populated tag, similar to
Acme's.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[roger peppe]

2009/1/29 Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 3:49 AM,  <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>> How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?
[...]
> I love acme, but I think rio's the right starting place for GUI
> things. Maybe just move the menu into a pre-populated tag, similar to
> Acme's.

i might have said this before, i can't remember, but i
reckon that rather than making acme universal, you could just
make it multi-window. currently there are many Column data
structures and a single Row. it *might* not be so hard to
allow multiple Rows, each corresponding to a window.

i'd find this very useful - my acme gets too cluttered when
i start subtasks, but i don't wish to start another acme, as it's
useful having all files under the same instance, and amenable
to the same Dump.

there is of course the issue of which window to open plumbed
files in, but i imagine (as with much of acme) that a decent heuristic
could make it feel fairly natural.

then you can have a separate terminal window with searchable
text as a free bonus.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[cej]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 846 bytes --]




>> How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?


>>From a UI design perspective, it's not clear what it ought to look
>like. More strongly, I'm not really convinced there *is* a good way
>for a UI like that to work. You'd have all the problems the X11 tiled
>window managers have, and if you don't separately provide for either
>"floating" windows (as some of them do) or horribly throw tiles
>around, things like viewing large postscript documents is going to be
>hella disruptive.

What about adding a hide/unhide column functionality? And, perhaps, HideAll (tiles except the current one)?

>I love acme, but I think rio's the right starting place for GUI
>things. Maybe just move the menu into a pre-populated tag, similar to
>Acme's.

I agree. Maybe I am to much Acme-biased. 


++pac




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Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> > How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?
>
> Acme very deeply believes that everything's just text. It would be
> substantial effort to get it to be any more universal than that. I'm
> aware of at least two independent efforts by very smart people who
> stalled at about the same place.

i was hoping to avoid this discussion and keep things simple.

the problem with adding graphics to acme is kind of interesting
though.  text pretty much does it's own layout.  that is, you can
teach acme how to layout and wrap text by hard coding the rules.
tabs get the width of $tabstop characters, etc.  when you add
graphics, things get a bit more interesting.  the easy (but inflexible)
way of doing it is like 9term, either text or graphics.  that's a step.
faces and stats could run in acme.  but hard to extend.  or,
a bit bolder way to go is to give acme a boxes-n-glue layout device.
then Mailfaces could put the face in a left column and the
standard information in the right column.

that's enough hand waving for this month.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Akshat Kumar]

One approach might be to have a separate
application, in the family of winwatch and wintop,
which maintains Acme-like clickable tags and
tag-space for the current/currently active rio window.

Of course, it's one more application... but for those
who like just the basic chording in their rc windows,
yet want the advantage of some menu items,
it might be ideal to have the application and get rid
of  the menus.

But I've left out too many important details in this:
I don't know how feasible it is to grab what data
has been sweeped in one rio window, from another.


ak

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[jimmy brisson]

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 7:53 AM,  <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>
>
>
>>> How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?
>
>
> >From a UI design perspective, it's not clear what it ought to look
>>like. More strongly, I'm not really convinced there *is* a good way
>>for a UI like that to work. You'd have all the problems the X11 tiled
>>window managers have, and if you don't separately provide for either
>>"floating" windows (as some of them do) or horribly throw tiles
>>around, things like viewing large postscript documents is going to be
>>hella disruptive.

acctualy they normaly provide multiple "workspaces" (screen clones)
and provide a chord to turn a window into one (fullscreen).

>
> What about adding a hide/unhide column functionality? And, perhaps, HideAll (tiles except the current one)?
>

they also tend to have a recursive structure that is different that acmes:
they treat each frame (containing multiple windows with tabs) as an
individual screen, which can have multiple children frames; therefore,
there is not rely an acme column analog, just more tiled windows.

>>I love acme, but I think rio's the right starting place for GUI
>>things. Maybe just move the menu into a pre-populated tag, similar to
>>Acme's.
>
> I agree. Maybe I am to much Acme-biased.

Would it be reasonable to apply a "command" chord that would take full
commands and run them in rc within the current namespace(simmilar to
the scrach area in acme)? someting like a simgle line command line for
many commands like snarf, paste, look, et cetera and assuming that the
selected text is the first argument (in quotes). this would "fix" the
problem with long menus, but replace it with more reliance on the
keyboard.

>
> ++pac
>

most info on the tiling wms is take from my experince with Ion
(http://iki.fi/tuomov/ion/).

at any rate, I would like to help if a large overhaul is in the works.

-Jimmy




--
; and logic ensued, bringing joy and releif to people through out the land

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Roman V. Shaposhnik]

On Thu, 2009-01-29 at 08:53 -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > > How about turning acme to universal UI, in the style of old Oberon?
> >
> > Acme very deeply believes that everything's just text. It would be
> > substantial effort to get it to be any more universal than that. I'm
> > aware of at least two independent efforts by very smart people who
> > stalled at about the same place.
>
> i was hoping to avoid this discussion and keep things simple.
>
> the problem with adding graphics to acme is kind of interesting
> though.  text pretty much does it's own layout.

You've hit the nail on the head with this comment. It seems that almost
all layout systems spend 99% of their smarts laying out blocks of
graphic information *and* trying to figure out how to make text be
still "self-layingout". And I do mean all: from TeX, lout, all the
way to HTML/CSS.

If we were to learn from their experience I'd say it is a heck of
a job to get it all right and still maintain your sanity.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[erik quanstrom]

> You've hit the nail on the head with this comment. It seems that almost
> all layout systems spend 99% of their smarts laying out blocks of
> graphic information *and* trying to figure out how to make text be
> still "self-layingout". And I do mean all: from TeX, lout, all the
> way to HTML/CSS.

i think there's hope.  boxes-n-glue is simple enough.  within a text
box, layout could be the same as today.  gluing boxes together is fairly
straightforward.  (just steal knuth's algorithms.)  i think a good
bit of τεχ's complexity is in that last smidge of layout doctoring
and the fact that everything needs to fit on a page.  if you
get rid of kerning, hyphenation, hbadness, vbadness, etc. by
using the current text layout algorithm, it might just be reasonable.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Akshat Kumar]

This isn't a *TeX complaints forum, but...
I'm spending more time trying to figure out
how to properly layout my page and get
the headers right, wa-wa (in LaTeX) --
  instead of submitting my proof to the
  damn journal.

How feasible is a solution to this mess?


ak

Re: [9fans] Small program "PlanKey" (paraphrase of DOSKey)

[Brian L. Stuart]

> This isn't a *TeX complaints forum, but...
> I'm spending more time trying to figure out
> how to properly layout my page and get
> the headers right, wa-wa (in LaTeX) --
>   instead of submitting my proof to the
>   damn journal.
>
> How feasible is a solution to this mess?

Which journal is it?  A lot of them have LaTeX
classes or styles that already do all the right
things.  If this one doesn't and it's at all
like e.g. ACM conferences you could start with
one of those and go from there.

BLS