Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Noah Evans]

The same kind that's in the plan 9 version of emacs.

You can read about it here:

http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/emacs

Noah

----- Original Message -----
From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

> > > will thgere be a new release of plan9 any time soon? and if so
> what new
> > > features will it have over the old release?>
> >
> > I understand there will be a lisp interpreter in acme, to allow
> for C and
> > Java modes.
>
> You must be joking. What dialect? ArrowLISP or what?
>

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> The same kind that's in the plan 9 version of emacs.
>
> You can read about it here:
>
> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/emacs

Oh, so it was a joke. So let me repeat my question:

apart from porting ArrowLISP to Plan9,

http://t3x.dyndns.org/LISP/ALISP/download.html

what are other current development efforts?
What is going on on Plan9?

David Tolpin

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[andrey mirtchovski]

the way i see it:

"not really alive, not completely dead yet" describes it reasonably
well.  the version numbers won't change because updating via the
replica at sources.cs.bell-labs takes care of daily patches and
trivial updates.  it has the ability to take care of major updates
too, so perhaps there will never be a next plan9 release (think flow
vs discrete events).

the only time i heard 'R5' mentioned was to commemorate the switch to
fossil + the OSI-approved license, and to reorganize the tree so that
things brought in under a different license (ghostscript) are clearly
visible outside of the main Plan 9 tree (at least that's what i
understood from the directory tree on sources.cs).

sweeping changes in Plan 9 happen very rarely in my opinion (R3,
venti+fossil and 9P2000 were the ones that have happen in my lifetime
as a 9fan).  to add to what ron said, people have mentioned on the
list running binaries from 1995 without problems on the latest p9
installations...

andrey

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[dbailey27]

> sweeping changes in Plan 9 happen very rarely in my opinion (R3,
> venti+fossil and 9P2000 were the ones that have happen in my lifetime
> as a 9fan).

And, yet to come, the day I actually finish *and* release a project
I'm working on for plan9.

On that day:
	<f2f> Oh my god. Don, you finally finished something?
	<north_> AUGH, MY DISKS JUST CRASHED

Don (north_)

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[boyd, rounin]

> "not really alive, not completely dead yet" ...

bring out your dead ...

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Noah Evans]

http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/9grid/

----- Original Message -----
From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

> > personally, i like the simplicity and elegance of
> > plan9, so i use it and develop for it when i have time.
> >
>
> OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere? Many, if not most,
> projects mentioned on Wiki I sleeping.
>
> David
>

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[ron minnich]

OK, somebody else mentioned 9grid.

I ought to mention that I have run a distributed radiation transport
problem on the 9grid, some nodes here, some at bell labs. I wrote a simple
task bag file system (ripped-off ramfs) to support the app.

Plan 9 showed itself to be the best (only) grid system that let you
program the exact same way when resources are local or remote. The task
bag is a great way to run problems like this, and it all works no matter
where the process is, due to Plan 9 features like Private Name Spaces.
Globus will never get to where Plan 9 is now.

Now if we can solve the messier problems we'll be there.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Charles Forsyth]

>>Globus will never get to where Plan 9 is now.

ah, but Globus has frequent release number increments
because Globus is frequently changing (incompatibly)
so that must be better, surely.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Taj Khattra]

> ah, but Globus has frequent release number increments
> because Globus is frequently changing (incompatibly)
> so that must be better, surely.

yep, the Beatles actually predicted this a long time ago:

    I've got to admit it's getting better (better)
    A little better all the time (it can't get no worse)

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[boyd, rounin]

> Now if we can solve the messier problems we'll be there.

we're workin' on it ...

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[chris niewiarowski]

what about suport for the pegasos platform

www.pegasosppc.com

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[9fans] Re: new release?

[chris niewiarowski]

will thgere be a new release of plan9 any time soon? and if so what new
features will it have over the old release?>

_________________________________________________________________
Stay informed on Election 2004 and the race to Super Tuesday.
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Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[matt]

ah, the fascination of the new

m

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[boyd, rounin]

meet the new release (sic)
same as the old release (sic)

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, chris niewiarowski wrote:

> will thgere be a new release of plan9 any time soon? and if so what new
> features will it have over the old release?>

I understand there will be a lisp interpreter in acme, to allow for C and
Java modes.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> > will thgere be a new release of plan9 any time soon? and if so what new
> > features will it have over the old release?>
>
> I understand there will be a lisp interpreter in acme, to allow for C and
> Java modes.

You must be joking. What dialect? ArrowLISP or what?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, David Tolpin wrote:

> You must be joking. What dialect? ArrowLISP or what?


actually, I'm joking. Sorry, could not resist.

I see these version request things from time to time, and I think it's
kind of remarkable that we talk about 'r4' of plan 9. Think about how
often the various unix-like systems rotate versions and system calls. It's
quite impressive that plan 9 is so stable year to year.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> kind of remarkable that we talk about 'r4' of plan 9. Think about how
> often the various unix-like systems rotate versions and system calls. It's
> quite impressive that plan 9 is so stable year to year.

While I agree that flickering version numbers of some other systems
are just indications of shaky designs, 'stable' differs from 'stalled'
by just two letters. I've read a lot about Plan9, I've played with
it and used it to port a couple of programs (not of general interest);
but I am now trying to understand is it live, or just elegant?

David Tolpin

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 12:59:05AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote:
>
> While I agree that flickering version numbers of some other systems
> are just indications of shaky designs, 'stable' differs from 'stalled'
> by just two letters. I've read a lot about Plan9, I've played with
> it and used it to port a couple of programs (not of general interest);
> but I am now trying to understand is it live, or just elegant?

it's as alive as you want it to be. there are a number
of people that use it daily, and a few that use it for
development and develop for it. i don't see the
relevance of the question, really. people are frequently
quick to announce the demise of this or that piece of
software. who cares. if you like the system, and you
want to contribute, then use it and contribute.
otherwise, go use another system.

personally, i like the simplicity and elegance of
plan9, so i use it and develop for it when i have time.

just my $0.02.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> personally, i like the simplicity and elegance of
> plan9, so i use it and develop for it when i have time.
>

OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere? Many, if not most,
projects mentioned on Wiki I sleeping.

David

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 01:13:27AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote:
>
> OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere? Many, if not most,
> projects mentioned on Wiki I sleeping.

if there are lists besides 9fans and 9grid, i don't
know about them (doesn't mean they don't exist). any
development i was doing is currently halted as my
living situation doesn't permit it, and (as is probably
the case for a lot of people here) my schedule doesn't
really allow it.

what exactly are you looking for? a project to which
you can contribute? some sign of activity other than
this list? just curious...

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> >
> > OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> > related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere? Many, if not most,
> > projects mentioned on Wiki I sleeping.
>
> if there are lists besides 9fans and 9grid,

thank you for the pointer to the other list, I've just subscribed
to see what is happening there.

>
> what exactly are you looking for? a project to which
> you can contribute? some sign of activity other than
> this list? just curious...

I'm trying to learn.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, David Tolpin wrote:

> thank you for the pointer to the other list, I've just subscribed
> to see what is happening there.

to be honest, very little. There are some hard problems to figure out, and
while Plan 9 is the difference between hard and impossible, they're still
hard. So it is taking time. But Andrey will work it all out for us.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Christopher Nielsen]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 01:55:22AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote:
>
> thank you for the pointer to the other list, I've just subscribed
> to see what is happening there.

you're welcome

> I'm trying to learn.

the best way to learn, imo, is to start using the system
and reading/writing code.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[9nut]

> OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere?
Yes and No, respectively.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> > OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> > related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere?
> Yes and No, respectively.

Why are they kept secret?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 420 bytes --]

Little things appear every very frequently and get stuck in the
distribution.  Big things like CIFS support arrive a lot less
frequently and are rarely preceded by lots of fanfare, they
just appear, a man page gets stuck in, and life continues
like nothing happened.

There are no collaborative projects going on other than the
9grid stuff that I know of.

Noone's keeping anything secret, they're just low key.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2245 bytes --]

From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: new release?
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 02:47:06 +0400 (AMT)
Message-ID: <200402252247.i1PMl6ld089354@adat.davidashen.net>

> > OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> > related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere?
> Yes and No, respectively.

Why are they kept secret?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Geoff Collyer]

I've been contributing anti-spam machinery for smtpd, and have some
other code and ideas stalled by lack of time and not-quite-complete
IPv6 support in Plan 9.  So far none of the strongly-hyped anti-spam
ideas keep the spam from reaching one's machine in the first place,
and I know how to do that, it's just going to take some time to do it.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Derek Fawcus]

On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 03:50:18PM -0800, Geoff Collyer wrote:
> not-quite-complete IPv6 support in Plan 9.

I've not checked,  but what's missing?

DF

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Presotto]

we've got an ipv6config that we should stick out there.  there's also
some dhcpv6 support.  mostly me dragging my heels because we aren't using
it yet.  i'll have ynl (he did everything) to stick things onto sources for
people to play with.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Geoff Collyer]

I think all the v6 machinery is there except for a way to configure it
correctly (I've managed to configure it almost-correctly by hand),
dhcp support for V6 addresses, dns & dhcp cooperation when assigning
addresses (dynamic DNS updates), and of course IPSEC.  I have some
sympathy for omitting IPSEC, nice though it would be to have.  An
in-kernel implementation would be pretty ugly and there's still the
need for automatic key negotiation (the stuff that racoon does on
systems using the KAME V6 stack).

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Dave Lukes]

What's that black helicopter doing hovering overhead?

Why are the Maoist-Stalinist Communist sympathisers hidden in the walls
eating my socks?

On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 22:47, David Tolpin wrote:
> > > OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
> > > related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere?
> > Yes and No, respectively.
>
> Why are they kept secret?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[9nut]

>> > OK, are there development efforts of general interest closely
>> > related to plan9? Is there a list anywhere?
>> Yes and No, respectively.
>
> Why are they kept secret?

They are not; Some 9fans have mentioned projects they are working on
but they are not far enough along to be shared (yet).  In that sense it
is like D.H.  Rumsfeld said: "There are known knowns, and there are
known unknowns".  It is the second part, I think.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 555 bytes --]

Haven't been any huge changes in the recent past.  Factotum
and a lot of the security stuff happened 2 years ago. The earliest
deadline first scheduler has recently stabilized enough to depend
on.  Tools keep changing as people add features to them.  We base
the install on a new file system, fossil, last year.

We don't number releases at all since stuff changes everyday and
we cut a new installation image daily.  The latter is done
automaticly if anything has changed on the sources machine.
That machine is mountable by anyone using plan 9.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3124 bytes --]

From: Christopher Nielsen <cnielsen@pobox.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: new release?
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:10:39 -0800
Message-ID: <20040225211039.GC83490@cassie.foobarbaz.net>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 12:59:05AM +0400, David Tolpin wrote:
>
> While I agree that flickering version numbers of some other systems
> are just indications of shaky designs, 'stable' differs from 'stalled'
> by just two letters. I've read a lot about Plan9, I've played with
> it and used it to port a couple of programs (not of general interest);
> but I am now trying to understand is it live, or just elegant?

it's as alive as you want it to be. there are a number
of people that use it daily, and a few that use it for
development and develop for it. i don't see the
relevance of the question, really. people are frequently
quick to announce the demise of this or that piece of
software. who cares. if you like the system, and you
want to contribute, then use it and contribute.
otherwise, go use another system.

personally, i like the simplicity and elegance of
plan9, so i use it and develop for it when i have time.

just my $0.02.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Brantley Coile]

Does the concept of release still mean anything when you
can pull new stuff daily?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[matt]

when I am asked "is plan9 being developed?" in irc I usually answer "nah, it's finished"

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[9nut]

> I am now trying to understand is it live, or just elegant?
Both.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Scott Schwartz]

| I understand there will be a lisp interpreter in acme, to allow for C and
| Java modes.

Ron is pulling your tail, but seriously, the cool thing about acme is
that the extension language can be external.  More likely python than
lisp, though.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[David Tolpin]

> | I understand there will be a lisp interpreter in acme, to allow for C and
> | Java modes.
>
> but seriously, the cool thing about acme is that
> the extension language can be external.

Yes, I understand it. And I like it in general; however,
I have difficulty implementing things I want with the
way acme lets it do. This may be something to do with
my desires; but still.

> More likely python than lisp, though.

Why?

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[Scott Schwartz]

| Why?

Someone ported python already, I thought.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[boyd, rounin]

> Someone ported python already, I thought.

russ did & iirc i hacked in 9p support.

Re: [9fans] Re: new release?

[rog]

> the cool thing about acme is
> that the extension language can be external.

depends what you want to extend.

there are lots of acme things you can't do through the acme(4)
interface (execute an arbitrary acme middle-button command, for
example)

i'm fairly sure that's deliberate, to ensure that everyone
doesn't have an acme interface that's different from
everyone else's...