From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:17:44 +0100 From: "Giacomo Tesio" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8967_3771347.1227633464684" Subject: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 51f71cc2-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_8967_3771347.1227633464684 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello list, I've found in http://netlib.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Contrib_index/ the xml2 (libxml2-2.6.30 for APE) package from Federico G. Benavento. I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for writing a Plan 9 application. Giacomo ------=_Part_8967_3771347.1227633464684 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello list,

I've found in http://netlib.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Contrib_index/ the xml2 (libxml2-2.6.30 for APE) package from Federico G. Benavento.

I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for writing a Plan 9 application.


Giacomo
------=_Part_8967_3771347.1227633464684-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:40:02 -0200 From: "Federico G. Benavento" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 526749c0-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 hola, > I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for writing > a Plan 9 application. as it says it's an APE port, that means you have to use the APE api with it, I see no point in writing a native app using libxml2, if I needed to doing some xml I'd use something like steve's libxml /n/sources/contrib/steve/libxml.tar -- Federico G. Benavento From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:19:57 +0100 From: "Giacomo Tesio" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13700_22810691.1227651597782" References: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 527532b0-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_13700_22810691.1227651597782 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ehm... Sorry... :-D As I knew libxml2, I directly searched "libxml2" in the contrib page... You're right... I'll use that. :-D Giacomo On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Federico G. Benavento wrote: > hola, > > > I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for > writing > > a Plan 9 application. > > as it says it's an APE port, that means you have to use the APE api with > it, > I see no point in writing a native app using libxml2, if I needed to doing > some > xml I'd use something like steve's libxml > > /n/sources/contrib/steve/libxml.tar > > > > > > > -- > Federico G. Benavento > > ------=_Part_13700_22810691.1227651597782 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ehm... Sorry... :-D

As I knew libxml2, I directly searched "libxml2" in the contrib page...


You're right... I'll use that. :-D


Giacomo

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:
hola,

> I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for writing
> a Plan 9 application.

as it says it's an APE port, that means you have to use the APE api with it,
I see no point in writing a native app using libxml2, if I needed to doing some
 xml I'd use something like steve's libxml

/n/sources/contrib/steve/libxml.tar






--
Federico G. Benavento


------=_Part_13700_22810691.1227651597782-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:34:11 +0100 From: Uriel To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 527b0d3e-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 xml? Just say *no*. And BTW, steve's libxml is far from usable and doesn't really implement the complete standard (but who can blame him? the libxml2 people have been working on their implementation for years, and it is still full of bugs and security issues, not to mention insanely slow). Again, just say *no* to xml, even the web 2.0 fools have given it up. uriel On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Federico G. Benavento wrote: > hola, > >> I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for writing >> a Plan 9 application. > > as it says it's an APE port, that means you have to use the APE api with it, > I see no point in writing a native app using libxml2, if I needed to doing some > xml I'd use something like steve's libxml > > /n/sources/contrib/steve/libxml.tar > > > > > > > -- > Federico G. Benavento > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:57:57 +0000 From: Eris Discordia To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <0AD1B4D8ECAB00A0E8086382@[192.168.1.2]> In-Reply-To: <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> References: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 52e8ce46-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Again, just say *no* to xml, even the web 2.0 fools have given it up. I agree. Web 2.0 is for fools. I don't agree. Say yes to XML because you have to say yes to some markup language anyway. Why not give the yes to an eXtensible one with a zillion applications already, from TEI to DocBook to DITA to RSS to what have you? And don't tell me you had SGML in mind. --On Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:34 PM +0100 Uriel wrote: > xml? Just say *no*. > > And BTW, steve's libxml is far from usable and doesn't really > implement the complete standard (but who can blame him? the libxml2 > people have been working on their implementation for years, and it is > still full of bugs and security issues, not to mention insanely slow). > > Again, just say *no* to xml, even the web 2.0 fools have given it up. > > uriel > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Federico G. Benavento > wrote: >> hola, >> >>> I was wondering if I have to use all the APE to use the library for >>> writing a Plan 9 application. >> >> as it says it's an APE port, that means you have to use the APE api with >> it, I see no point in writing a native app using libxml2, if I needed to >> doing some xml I'd use something like steve's libxml >> >> /n/sources/contrib/steve/libxml.tar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Federico G. Benavento >> >> > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:34:15 +0100 From: "Giacomo Tesio" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14343_12019979.1227656055147" References: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 52f2d954-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_14343_12019979.1227656055147 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd prefer to avoid flame war, since I know this is an hot cold topic here. But I don't agree. On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:34 PM, Uriel wrote: > xml? Just say *no*. > > And BTW, steve's libxml is far from usable and doesn't really > implement the complete standard (but who can blame him? the libxml2 > people have been working on their implementation for years, and it is > still full of bugs and security issues, not to mention insanely slow). well... slow... may be if compared with a parser for a non-extensible language, but I'm not sure I could do better (even if I didn't try). As any other tecnology XML could be misused. But there is no reason to "hate" it so much. Depending on your application design and the (human or not) environment who required the application, it could be a bless or a mess. For what I'm thinking there is simply no other way to obtain the result. I need to encapsulate human skills to minimize the interaction between them (graphic designers and developers). With the (huge?) fixed cost of such a library development, I could minimize it. Again, just say *no* to xml, even the web 2.0 fools have given it up. > I find many approaching XML in a similar way than other use for plan 9: they are so misunderstood! Those web 2.0 guys who decided to avoid XML are often moving HTML pieces. And they fill them selves smart. Or evalutating JSON. It could seem smart, actually. But when client change (say from a browser to a flash or to a web service) your problem begins. Moreover those smart guys mix data and presentation. They are smart if their only need is to sell a web 2.0 site to someone actually need a blog. For anything more, they are chosing a dangerous road. > > uriel > Giacomo PS: I've had way to appretiate your estetical opinions about software design. Only upon this subject I deeply disagree with you. ------=_Part_14343_12019979.1227656055147 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd prefer to avoid flame war, since I know this is an hot cold topic here.

But I don't agree.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:34 PM, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:
xml? Just say *no*.

And BTW, steve's libxml is far from usable and doesn't really
implement the complete standard (but who can blame him? the libxml2
people have been working on their implementation for years, and it is
still full of bugs and security issues, not to mention insanely slow).
 
well... slow... may be  if compared with a parser for a non-extensible language, but I'm not sure I could do better (even if I didn't try).

As any other tecnology XML could be misused. But there is no reason to "hate" it so much.

Depending on your application design and the (human or not) environment who required the application, it could be a bless or a mess.


For what I'm thinking there is simply no other way to obtain the result.

I need to encapsulate human skills to minimize the interaction between them (graphic designers and developers).
With the (huge?) fixed cost of such a library development, I could minimize it.

Again, just say *no* to xml, even the web 2.0 fools have given it up.

I find many approaching XML in a similar way than other use for plan 9: they are so misunderstood!

Those web 2.0 guys who decided to avoid XML are often moving HTML pieces.
And they fill them selves smart. Or evalutating JSON.

It could seem smart, actually. But when client change (say from a browser to a flash or to a web service) your problem begins.

Moreover those smart guys mix data and presentation.
They are smart if their only need is to sell a web 2.0 site to someone actually need a blog.
For anything more, they are chosing a dangerous road.
 

uriel

Giacomo
PS: I've had way to appretiate your estetical opinions about software design. Only upon this subject I deeply disagree with you.
------=_Part_14343_12019979.1227656055147-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <1fc0d9800811251801h23099f0dn2f4faebbfdcba7fb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:01:39 -0800 From: "Nick LaForge" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 52fdacc6-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 hello, interfacing external languages should not often be hard, especially by defining a relevent language subset. i don't understand, though, why your external language 'xml' need now be part of your application? thanks, nkl From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:47:38 +0100 From: "Giacomo Tesio" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <1fc0d9800811251801h23099f0dn2f4faebbfdcba7fb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18795_17819635.1227689258493" References: <32d987d50811251240t1c1f78bch5b7a78d4f8cd1ac3@mail.gmail.com> <5d375e920811251434j59a97f44h473bbc13f550a14@mail.gmail.com> <1fc0d9800811251801h23099f0dn2f4faebbfdcba7fb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] xml2 and APE Topicbox-Message-UUID: 531b5276-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_18795_17819635.1227689258493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Probably my english is worse than I thought! :-D Well. I'd like to build a framework for web development as described in http://9fans.net/archive/2008/11/748 http://9fans.net/archive/2008/11/796 Since XML (and XSLT) are so diffused, it would allow to delegate the (not so) tiny client/browser to dressup data toward javascript and to optimize bandwith by moving only needed contents. Obviously, when the client is really tiny, like the blind readers are, or doesn't support javascript, the server has to be able to translate by itself and send it yet dressed webpages. Well this is one of the feature I require. But, in 5 years of (non exclusive) web development, I could not find such a framework. IMHO, it would be also a chance for Plan 9 itself to be a bit less elitarian. More complex and huge systems (like JEE or .NET) don't allow the role separation (developer / graphic designer) I aim to. Nor the speed, the security or the scalability. Sadly, 'till now, they are just ideas. Giacomo On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Nick LaForge wrote: > hello, > > interfacing external languages should not often be hard, especially by > defining a relevent language subset. > > i don't understand, though, why your external language 'xml' need now > be part of your application? > > thanks, > nkl > > ------=_Part_18795_17819635.1227689258493 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Probably my english is worse than I thought! :-D

Well. I'd like to build a framework for web development as described in
http://9fans.net/archive/2008/11/748
http://9fans.net/archive/2008/11/796

Since XML (and XSLT) are so diffused, it would allow to delegate the (not so) tiny client/browser to dressup data toward javascript and to optimize bandwith by moving only needed contents.

Obviously, when the client is really tiny, like the blind readers are, or doesn't support javascript, the server has to be able to translate by itself and send it yet dressed webpages.

Well this is one of the feature I require.

But, in 5 years of (non exclusive) web development, I could not find such a framework.


IMHO, it would be also a chance for Plan 9 itself to be a bit less elitarian.
More complex and huge systems (like JEE or .NET) don't allow the role separation (developer / graphic designer) I aim to. Nor the speed, the security or the scalability.


Sadly, 'till now, they are just ideas.


Giacomo


On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Nick LaForge <nicklaforge@gmail.com> wrote:
hello,

interfacing external languages should not often be hard, especially by
defining a relevent language subset.

i don't understand, though, why your external language 'xml' need now
be part of your application?

thanks,
nkl


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