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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="k@pixelheresy.com"; helo=mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de; client-ip=5.45.100.188 Received: from mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de [5.45.100.188]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 07:34:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from k@pixelheresy.com) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (212-17-162-67.amt.ax [212.17.162.67]) by mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34A6C82564 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 13:34:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Keith Gibbs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7C44F4FD-7AA6-4BFD-AE52-D6B69241205A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:34:08 +0300 References: <27f9d66f-4fe9-4c5f-b622-f11c7a231cfd@www.fastmail.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <27f9d66f-4fe9-4c5f-b622-f11c7a231cfd@www.fastmail.com> Message-Id: <12DD420A-50B4-4270-A042-DFFF58F73BA6@pixelheresy.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 386e68f4-0018-11ec-94f1-a56722550049 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NMzgxYTJjNWQ1NGVjNjgxNzVlYjQ1?= =?UTF-8?B?M2Q0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M381a2c5d54ec68175eb453d4:1:9iqDUoeKncz52S1Pwn4om0n-XT4FYtlRz28IJDksgJw --Apple-Mail=_7C44F4FD-7AA6-4BFD-AE52-D6B69241205A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Come, come, Vester. Please don=E2=80=99t introduce false premises under the= guise of calling them out. I never said that. 9front as the official Plan = 9 would be pretty absurd. I never said it was *the* development branch. It is *a* development branch.= I could even imagine that it may in fact be the most popular and active fo= r those wishing to develop new software on (with 9miller being very popular= as well).=20 If fact, I noted other projects... other Plan 9s as well in my initial and = my response to Lucio. I was merely pointing out that Lucio in the past and = in the OAuth thread keeps introducing the idea that the P9F should impose o= rder and wall off everything but 9legacy [which he implies is the official = one], even to the point of arguing in the past that 9front developers shoul= d port changes that are =E2=80=9Cgood for the community=E2=80=9D or some su= ch to the =E2=80=9Cactual=E2=80=9D Plan 9.=20 Instea the charter for P9F's language was written to be inclusive. Why? Bec= ause historically this mailing list/community has been host to discussion f= or 9legacy, 9atom, 9front, p9p, etc. Even Inferno or Harvey come up semi-re= gularly. As such, it is not outside the general understanding of =E2=80=9CP= lan 9=E2=80=9D as encompassing a wider berth. Although many of the P9F folk= are contributors to 9legacy, I think they know that the community is broad= er and want all of it to be =E2=80=9CPlan 9=E2=80=9D. So in the end, I apologise if it was unclear or confusing that I suggested = to Lucio that 9front was to be "Plan 9 from Bell Labs Version 5=E2=80=9D. I= t was a joke and everything I wrote following that should have made that ve= ry clear that I was arguing *specifically* for a plurality of Plan 9s rathe= r than a single one [which Lucio was advocating for]. Lucio seems to hate 9= front specifically for some reason, so the initial statement was intended a= s tongue in cheek. Both 9legacy and 9front serve important niche functions within Plan 9 space= , but neither *are* Plan 9. There is only one =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D Pl= an 9 and that was last updated January 2015. 9legacy positions itself as pa= tch set on top of V4, but wants to maintain it in such a way that V4 will a= lways function as V4. 9legacy maintains that it is not a fork. 9front says = explicitly that it is a fork of V4 and a continuation based on it=E2=80=99s= core principles. Both have fed into each other=E2=80=99s ecosystems. Hell,= 9legacy=E2=80=99s site even says to run Plan 9 from Bell Labs rather than = 9legacy if possible, which is kind of funny. And NIX is still active, last = I heard, but currently has a closed community, not to mention Harvey and Je= anne. So my main point was that we have a plurality and we *should* continue to h= ave a plurality. Much like Lucio would find 9front as being blessed as =E2= =80=9Cthe official one true Plan 9=E2=80=9D repugnant, so too would others = re: 9legacy. A fair swathe of the Plan 9 enthusiast community want to build= and evolve and a fair swathe want to preserve and maintain, with some incr= emental quality of life tweaks added in, and *both are totally valid*. -pixelheresy > On 18. Aug 2021, at 13.13, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: >=20 > Starting from a false premise does not help. 9front is not a development = branch of Plan 9. Plan 9 is Plan 9. 9front is 9front. 9front is an open-sou= rce fork or derivation of Plan 9.=20=20 >=20 > Trying to make 9front the new and official Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm n= ot sure why there is a strong need for validation. 9front does not need off= icial recognition. Let 9front be what it is. It can exist independent of th= e Plan 9 name.=20 >=20 > Sincerely, > Vester=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M381a2= c5d54ec68175eb453d4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_7C44F4FD-7AA6-4BFD-AE52-D6B69241205A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Come, come, Vester. Please don’t introduce false premises under= the guise of calling them out. I never said that. 9front as the official P= lan 9 would be pretty absurd.

I= never said it was *the* development branch. It is *a* development branch. = I could even imagine that it may in fact be the most popular and active for= those wishing to develop new software on (with 9miller being very popular = as well). 

If fa= ct, I noted other projects... other Plan 9s as well in my initial and my re= sponse to Lucio. I was merely pointing out that Lucio in the past and in th= e OAuth thread keeps introducing the idea that the P9F should impose order = and wall off everything but 9legacy [which he implies is the official one],= even to the point of arguing in the past that 9front developers should por= t changes that are “good for the community” or some such to the= “actual” Plan 9. 

<= /div>
Instea the charter for P9F's language was written = to be inclusive. Why? Because historically this mailing list/community has = been host to discussion for 9legacy, 9atom, 9front, p9p, etc. Even Inferno = or Harvey come up semi-regularly. As such, it is not outside the general un= derstanding of “Plan 9” as encompassing a wider berth. Although= many of the P9F folk are contributors to 9legacy, I think they know that t= he community is broader and want all of it to be “Plan 9”.

So in the end, I ap= ologise if it was unclear or confusing that I suggested to Lucio that 9fron= t was to be "Plan 9 from Bell Labs Version 5”. It was a joke and= everything I wrote following that should have made that very clear that I = was arguing *specifically* for a plurality of Plan 9s rather than a single = one [which Lucio was advocating for]. Lucio seems to hate 9front specifical= ly for some reason, so the initial statement was intended as tongue in chee= k.

Both 9legacy= and 9front serve important niche functions within Plan 9 space, but neithe= r *are* Plan 9. There is only one “official” Plan 9 and that wa= s last updated January 2015. 9legacy positions itself as patch set on top o= f V4, but wants to maintain it in such a way that V4 will always function a= s V4. 9legacy maintains that it is not a fork. 9front says explicitly that = it is a fork of V4 and a continuation based on it’s core principles. = Both have fed into each other’s ecosystems. Hell, 9legacy’s sit= e even says to run Plan 9 from Bell Labs rather than 9legacy if possible, w= hich is kind of funny. And NIX is still active, last I heard, but currently= has a closed community, not to mention Harvey and Jeanne.

So my main point was that we h= ave a plurality and we *should* continue to have a plurality. Much like Luc= io would find 9front as being blessed as “the official one true Plan = 9” repugnant, so too would others re: 9legacy. A fair swathe of the P= lan 9 enthusiast community want to build and evolve and a fair swathe want = to preserve and maintain, with some incremental quality of life tweaks adde= d in, and *both are totally valid*.

<= /div>
-pixelheresy

On 18. Aug 2021, at = 13.13, vic.thacker@fa= stmail.fm wrote:

Starting from a false = premise does not help. 9front is not a development branch of Plan 9. Plan 9= is Plan 9. 9front is 9front. 9front is an open-source fork or derivation o= f Plan 9.  

Trying to make 9front the new and of= ficial Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm not sure why there is a strong need= for validation. 9front does not need official recognition. Let 9front be w= hat it is. It can exist independent of the Plan 9 name. 
Sincerely,
Vester 

= --Apple-Mail=_7C44F4FD-7AA6-4BFD-AE52-D6B69241205A--