* [9fans] what a surprise @ 2007-05-04 19:17 ron minnich 2007-05-04 19:32 ` erik quanstrom ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2007-05-04 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs "It looks like more issues with Vista drains notebook batteries. Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life. " amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry. Ah, what a shock. I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:17 [9fans] what a surprise ron minnich @ 2007-05-04 19:32 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-04 19:32 ` Paul Lalonde 2007-05-06 20:10 ` Roman Shaposhnik 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-04 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans some things look good because the work good. - erik > "It looks like more issues with Vista drains notebook batteries. > Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life. > " > > amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry. > Ah, what a shock. > > I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my > laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:17 [9fans] what a surprise ron minnich 2007-05-04 19:32 ` erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-04 19:32 ` Paul Lalonde 2007-05-04 19:43 ` lucio 2007-05-04 22:47 ` Steve Simon 2007-05-06 20:10 ` Roman Shaposhnik 2 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Paul Lalonde @ 2007-05-04 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've been trying to think of ways to evangelize rio and acme. It's a tough sell - there is no "new user" subset. In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme) you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to compose those primitives. This means that no beginner will be able to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving them the 3-button low-down. There just aren't any training wheels, and these days even expert users use the training wheels when in parts of the system they aren't familiar with. I think it's a losing battle. Paul On May 4, 2007, at 12:17 PM, ron minnich wrote: > "It looks like more issues with Vista drains notebook batteries. > Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life. > " > > amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry. > Ah, what a shock. > > I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my > laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures. > > ron -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFGO4o/pJeHo/Fbu1wRArHBAKCtwBFuBFrAOqCFVY33v7e0Rr1j8wCdGOvV DS3ytBOocEQqu1zKrNpUo2E= =mPzp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:32 ` Paul Lalonde @ 2007-05-04 19:43 ` lucio 2007-05-04 19:58 ` Russ Cox 2007-05-04 22:47 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-04 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > This means that no beginner will be able > to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving > them the 3-button low-down. I've been thinking that Abaco looks just like the acme of the future. Add tags across the top (I really find tags in FireFox helpful) and I think rio, sam and acme can be rolled into a single GUI that others would learn to appreciate. But the target market is hardly going to be the multimedia or game-playing home user. Or the clerk in some faceless organisation. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:43 ` lucio @ 2007-05-04 19:58 ` Russ Cox 2007-05-04 20:07 ` lucio 2007-05-05 2:37 ` Kris Maglione 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2007-05-04 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I've been thinking that Abaco looks just like the acme of the future. > Add tags across the top (I really find tags in FireFox helpful) and I > think rio, sam and acme can be rolled into a single GUI that others > would learn to appreciate. i've been playing with wmii and thinking the same thing (probably minus the keyboard shortcuts). it frustrates me that the acme mouse gestures mean different things to wmii, but the general idea seems right. russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:58 ` Russ Cox @ 2007-05-04 20:07 ` lucio 2007-05-05 2:37 ` Kris Maglione 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-04 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > i've been playing with wmii and thinking the same thing > (probably minus the keyboard shortcuts). it frustrates me > that the acme mouse gestures mean different things to > wmii, but the general idea seems right. I found wmii counter-intuitive, but that was way back, I have no idea what it looks like today. Abaco seemed nearer to my existing habits. Again, I have not made extensive use of it, but the impression was quite strong. What I think swings my choice to Abaco is that it is Plan 9 native. Others may well feel the exact opposite. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:58 ` Russ Cox 2007-05-04 20:07 ` lucio @ 2007-05-05 2:37 ` Kris Maglione 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Kris Maglione @ 2007-05-05 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 556 bytes --] On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 03:58:49PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote: >i've been playing with wmii and thinking the same thing >(probably minus the keyboard shortcuts). it frustrates me >that the acme mouse gestures mean different things to >wmii, but the general idea seems right. Yes, it frustrates many people, including myself. I'm working on it, and it's gotten closer in the -test branch. The grab boxes should work as expectes shortly. -- Kris Maglione A budget is a plan that falls apart when the plumber has to make an emergency visit. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 194 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:32 ` Paul Lalonde 2007-05-04 19:43 ` lucio @ 2007-05-04 22:47 ` Steve Simon 2007-05-05 3:06 ` W B Hacker 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2007-05-04 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme) > you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to > compose those primitives. I think this is true, however I do think there is a class of user who writes applescript macros and Windows BAT or even VB who can relate to rc scripts and acme/sam/rio. Mainstream computer users who can appreciate the plan9 GUI environment are not common but they do exist. -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 22:47 ` Steve Simon @ 2007-05-05 3:06 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-05 5:08 ` Bruce Ellis 2007-05-05 19:08 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: W B Hacker @ 2007-05-05 3:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Steve Simon wrote: >> In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme) >> you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to >> compose those primitives. > > I think this is true, however I do think there is a class of user who writes > applescript macros and Windows BAT or even VB who can relate to rc scripts > and acme/sam/rio. > > Mainstream computer users who can appreciate the plan9 GUI environment are > not common but they do exist. > > -Steve > Counterpoint: I'll take the first as stipulated - IF qualifed with: '... and have learned in, or adapted to, the acme/rio environment.' IOW 'the appropriate sort of' capable CLI user.. But IMNSHO, the exact opposite applies to paragraph two! - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio. Or to accept the need to do, or value of, so doing. It just isn't immjediately obvious as to WHY SO. A person with no significant CLI 'habits' to alter/unlearn would generally have an easier time learning acme/rio from a cold start than your exemplary 'exeprienced' CLI'er. As was once the stregth of a Mac vs a 'pee sea'. Too much to 'shed' before learning a new paradigm. I don't think acme/rio vs, for example the comparably text-based, cut 'n paste to-execute 'commands-from anywhere usage' in native Oberon / Aos are anywhere near as different as Chinese and English (which are processed by entirely different parts of the brain - written OR spoken).. BUT .. the *apparent* 'wrong handedness' of acme/rio vs 'all others' is a barrier, even to natively ambidextrous folk (ich). Learning 9'ish mouse-chording and the rest of acme/rio just to explore 'plumber' and such may constitute as important and necessary step to a better productivity 'fit' for Plan9 [1] as adapting to RPN was for forth ... but barrier these are to the newbie. As with Chinese, English, Arabic, or Finnish - small children seem to have no problem learning at about the same age. So it isn't about what we can or cannot learn, or even about works or doesn't work. It is about what best fits the local environment. ;-) JM2CW Bill Hacker [1] I have come to view acme/rio & chording as an IDE suite specific to productive 9'ish devel - on which score I am not able to fault it - nor care to try. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-05 3:06 ` W B Hacker @ 2007-05-05 5:08 ` Bruce Ellis 2007-05-05 19:08 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2007-05-05 5:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs i have never corded. i just need a mouse that has 3 buttons to do my work. i grabbed a couple in paris at FNAC 'cause they were obviosly stuff they couldn't sell. they were a few euros each. chord away. it's a personal choice. brucee On 5/5/07, W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> wrote: > Steve Simon wrote: > >> In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme) > >> you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to > >> compose those primitives. > > > > I think this is true, however I do think there is a class of user who writes > > applescript macros and Windows BAT or even VB who can relate to rc scripts > > and acme/sam/rio. > > > > Mainstream computer users who can appreciate the plan9 GUI environment are > > not common but they do exist. > > > > -Steve > > > > Counterpoint: > > I'll take the first as stipulated - IF qualifed with: > > '... and have learned in, or adapted to, the acme/rio environment.' > > IOW 'the appropriate sort of' capable CLI user.. > > > But IMNSHO, the exact opposite applies to paragraph two! > > - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of > Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio. > > Or to accept the need to do, or value of, so doing. It just isn't immjediately > obvious as to WHY SO. > > A person with no significant CLI 'habits' to alter/unlearn would generally have > an easier time learning acme/rio from a cold start than your exemplary > 'exeprienced' CLI'er. As was once the stregth of a Mac vs a 'pee sea'. > > Too much to 'shed' before learning a new paradigm. > > I don't think acme/rio vs, for example the comparably text-based, cut 'n paste > to-execute 'commands-from anywhere usage' in native Oberon / Aos are anywhere > near as different as Chinese and English (which are processed by entirely > different parts of the brain - written OR spoken).. > > BUT .. the *apparent* 'wrong handedness' of acme/rio vs 'all others' is a > barrier, even to natively ambidextrous folk (ich). > > Learning 9'ish mouse-chording and the rest of acme/rio just to explore 'plumber' > and such may constitute as important and necessary step to a better productivity > 'fit' for Plan9 [1] as adapting to RPN was for forth ... but barrier these are > to the newbie. > > As with Chinese, English, Arabic, or Finnish - small children seem to have no > problem learning at about the same age. So it isn't about what we can or cannot > learn, or even about works or doesn't work. > > It is about what best fits the local environment. > > ;-) > > JM2CW > > Bill Hacker > > [1] I have come to view acme/rio & chording as an IDE suite specific to > productive 9'ish devel - on which score I am not able to fault it - nor care to try. > > > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-05 3:06 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-05 5:08 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2007-05-05 19:08 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-05 19:19 ` lucio 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-05 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of > Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio. i doubt this is the case. it wasn't for me. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-05 19:08 ` erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-05 19:19 ` lucio 2007-05-05 21:13 ` W B Hacker 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-05 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of >> Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio. > > i doubt this is the case. it wasn't for me. Not even as bad as getting used to VI. There lies a benchmark, if there was one. And the fact that VI can become second nature is enough to persuade me that icon-lovers will simply never know what they are missing on the other side of the fence. But the real crux lies in measurement and no one has yet suggested what it is that ought to be measured here, nevermind how to measure it. If we could set down some criteria against which one rates a user interface (I seriously doubt that popularity should be such a criterion), at least we'd have the option of a meaningful discussion. But I suspect that we are all voicing subjective opinions on some very personal idea of "comfort". ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-05 19:19 ` lucio @ 2007-05-05 21:13 ` W B Hacker 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: W B Hacker @ 2007-05-05 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote: >>> - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of >>> Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio. >> i doubt this is the case. it wasn't for me. > > Not even as bad as getting used to VI. There lies a benchmark, if > there was one. ACK, Best fixed with replacement of /bin/vi with the binary of an editor. Any editor. Even those that lisp... ;-) > And the fact that VI can become second nature is I think the legal profession calls those 'repeat offenders', psychologists 'masochists'. :-) > enough to persuade me that icon-lovers will simply never know what > they are missing on the other side of the fence. > ..'alternative lifestyle' for that one... I don't really care one way or the other about 'icons', and I do see the merits of some of the initially off-putting anomalies - IF one cares to stay around long enough, read and listen - to find out the 'why' of them. But by no means all of them make equal sense, even after research... It would be 'nice', for example, to have a screen that defaulted to scrolling UP as it filled instead of printing off the bottom of the view window.... Or a slider-bar on the same side of the window as the mouse and cursor manip keys *commonly* sit. Or an (optional?) CLi history buffer. And even a hardware TTY is smarter than to run its paper bass ackwards, hiding what I haven't yet read while preserving what I have already read.... ..have yet to grok the 'why' of that one... Mind - not because these things are right, wrong, sideways, or mandated by the Gods somehow. But because, like flush toilets, most folks *expect* them to act a certain way. Hard to get onboard with a different - possibly better - way of working if the first thing the new environment does is confuse a person with contrarian responses. Shouldn't be rocket science to provide a less hostile tolset, if only for transition. Yet it seems to not have been done, lo thjese many years. And the 'why' of THAT is even harder to grok... > But the real crux lies in measurement and no one has yet suggested > what it is that ought to be measured here, Presence of waste motion. or NOT. Excessive mental/physical 'context switching' in wetware. or NOT. > nevermind how to measure > it. 'Therbligs' applied to swapping mouse-kbd-mouse, hands for starters. The 'mental side is harder... possibly a suite of diverse tasks to key-up - timed tasks exercising a wide range of input techniques. But these would need to be such as can be done with *potentially* the same total key / click / drag count in either the Plan9 way AND various 'other' ways, not a test of 'plumbing' vs ifconfig _ /etc/<??> edits, NFS / SMBFS mounts & such. Those measure the OS architecture and toolset, not the 'hmi'. And, sorry - they are not really 'married' to each other. If they were, shell scripts would not exist. > If we could set down some criteria against which one rates a user > interface (I seriously doubt that popularity should be such a > criterion), Not sure. 'Popular' designs got that way by being generally learnable/acceptable to a great many 'casual' users, not 'coz the 'pro' particulalrly cared for them. And at least part of that relates to manual dexterity or lack thereof. Really 'focused' users very often prefer methods that the general public consider weird, 'coz there is a payoff - center-mounted accelerator pedals on race cars for either-foot heeel-and-to control, for example. And acme/rio have some of that sort of flavor - for coders anyway. > at least we'd have the option of a meaningful discussion. > But I suspect that we are all voicing subjective opinions on some very > personal idea of "comfort". > > ++L > Doubt that part would *ever* change - regardless of testing. Habits die hard. After all - people are still buying cigarettes. And worse. While it could *be* tested, (Google 'therblig' and 'Industrial Engineering'), there is probably no gain in going there. It isn't that hard to 'go thou and do *otherwise*'. Love acme/rio and use it as-is or simple replace or re-code it to something you like better. Personalization is one of the neater things about software... Bill ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-04 19:17 [9fans] what a surprise ron minnich 2007-05-04 19:32 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-04 19:32 ` Paul Lalonde @ 2007-05-06 20:10 ` Roman Shaposhnik 2007-05-06 20:28 ` Federico Benavento 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Roman Shaposhnik @ 2007-05-06 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 12:17 -0700, ron minnich wrote: > "It looks like more issues with Vista drains notebook batteries. > Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life. > " > > amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry. > Ah, what a shock. > > I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my > laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures. Speaking of pretty pictures I have the following question for you all: it seems quite evident that as human beings we need a bare minimum of possessions in our apartments/houses to have a normal life. Yet, we tend to be quite fond of all sorts of objects of art. They are completely useless as far as any task at hand is concerned but they are omnipresent. Why? Thanks, Roman. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] what a surprise 2007-05-06 20:10 ` Roman Shaposhnik @ 2007-05-06 20:28 ` Federico Benavento 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Federico Benavento @ 2007-05-06 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs because people with no pragmatic criteria give them to us in our birthdays. On 5/6/07, Roman Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote: > On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 12:17 -0700, ron minnich wrote: > > "It looks like more issues with Vista drains notebook batteries. > > Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life. > > " > > > > amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry. > > Ah, what a shock. > > > > I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my > > laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures. > > Speaking of pretty pictures I have the following question for you > all: it seems quite evident that as human beings we need a bare minimum > of possessions in our apartments/houses to have a normal life. Yet, > we tend to be quite fond of all sorts of objects of art. They are > completely useless as far as any task at hand is concerned but > they are omnipresent. Why? > > Thanks, > Roman. > > -- Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-05-06 20:28 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-05-04 19:17 [9fans] what a surprise ron minnich 2007-05-04 19:32 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-04 19:32 ` Paul Lalonde 2007-05-04 19:43 ` lucio 2007-05-04 19:58 ` Russ Cox 2007-05-04 20:07 ` lucio 2007-05-05 2:37 ` Kris Maglione 2007-05-04 22:47 ` Steve Simon 2007-05-05 3:06 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-05 5:08 ` Bruce Ellis 2007-05-05 19:08 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-05 19:19 ` lucio 2007-05-05 21:13 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-06 20:10 ` Roman Shaposhnik 2007-05-06 20:28 ` Federico Benavento
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