[9fans] First attempts

[9fans] First attempts

[Jared Norman]

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Hello all,

I just got started with plan9.  I discovered purely by accident and was
quite intrigued.  I'm a programmer (C, C++, Python) and I'm thinking of
deving a small game for plan9.  I'm a highschool and University student at
the moment (a product of my local university's accelerated entry and program
and my programming knowledge).  In both highschool and university m course
load, starting this September, will be relatively low.  On top of this I
will still be taking the grade 12 programmer course.  This gives me a bunch
of time to dev whatever I want and I was thinking of doing another game.  I
have a couple of questions.

Are the current libraries sufficient for making an action game on plan9?
I've been using SDL/Pygame for ages and haven't gone as low level as I may
have to here.  Also, where should I be looking for documentation?

How do I shutdown?  I tried my usual too linux commands (halt, shutdown) but
to no avail.  I also noticed reboot did reboot the computer but rebooting
and then cutting the power mid memory check doesn't seem like the best
solution.


Thanks all!
Mr. Norm S

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Re: [9fans] First attempts

[erik quanstrom]

check out /sys/src/games.  the drawing functions you need are mostly in graphics(2).
you can use either threads(2) or event(2) for concurency.  the event library is for simple
programs; threads are pretty powerful but you'll need to do more programming before
you get something working.

fshalt will shutdown your filesystems.  then reboot via vulcan nerve pinch or power switch.

- erik

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[andrey mirtchovski]

Subject: How do I reboot my system?

The system can be rebooted by typing ^T^Tr (two control-T's followed by
'r'). Cpu servers can be rebooted by typing ^P on the console. See the
cons(3) manual for more details.

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/22/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> Subject: How do I reboot my system?
>
> The system can be rebooted by typing ^T^Tr (two control-T's followed by
> 'r'). Cpu servers can be rebooted by typing ^P on the console. See the
> cons(3) manual for more details.
>

I've got a question--does "reboot" or ^T^Tr shut down file systems, or
does it just simply reboot? Is it the equivalent of hitting the reset
switch (generally considered a Bad Thing for a running machine)? I'd
like to know so I can minimize the risk of lost data on my file
server.

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[andrey mirtchovski]

it simply reboots. you wouldn't want to ^T^Tr your file server often,
but for terminals and cpu servers it's ok: they should be diskless
anyway.

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[jmk]

if you use plan9 in the way it was intended then you can
just turn off your terminal, hit the reset switch or type ^t^tr
because your terminal has no rotating parts.

however, if you have corrupted it into being a diskfull operating
system then you should make sure your data is saved and the appropriate
shutdowns of local filesystems has happened first.


On Tue Aug 22 12:55:09 EDT 2006, slawmaster@gmail.com wrote:
> On 8/22/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Subject: How do I reboot my system?
> >
> > The system can be rebooted by typing ^T^Tr (two control-T's followed by
> > 'r'). Cpu servers can be rebooted by typing ^P on the console. See the
> > cons(3) manual for more details.
> >
> 
> I've got a question--does "reboot" or ^T^Tr shut down file systems, or
> does it just simply reboot? Is it the equivalent of hitting the reset
> switch (generally considered a Bad Thing for a running machine)? I'd
> like to know so I can minimize the risk of lost data on my file
> server.
> 
> John
> -- 
> "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/22/06, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> if you use plan9 in the way it was intended then you can
> just turn off your terminal, hit the reset switch or type ^t^tr
> because your terminal has no rotating parts.
>
> however, if you have corrupted it into being a diskfull operating
> system then you should make sure your data is saved and the appropriate
> shutdowns of local filesystems has happened first.
>

Well, you have to have disks /somewhere/, and that machine is the one
I was worried about.

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[jmk]

On Tue Aug 22 13:04:09 EDT 2006, slawmaster@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> Well, you have to have disks /somewhere/, and that machine is the one
> I was worried about.
> ...

/somewhere/ is not somewhere you can type ^t^tr.

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/22/06, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> On Tue Aug 22 13:04:09 EDT 2006, slawmaster@gmail.com wrote:
> > ...
> > Well, you have to have disks /somewhere/, and that machine is the one
> > I was worried about.
> > ...
>
> /somewhere/ is not somewhere you can type ^t^tr.
>

Oh? Does the combo not work on file servers? Or are you saying that I
shouldn't have access to the console?

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[erik quanstrom]

it will work on a fileserver (with a 9pccpu* kernel) but is not advised
unless you first do fshalt.  you don't want to give fossil or venti heartburn.

- erik

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[jmk]

whether ^t^tr works on a fileserver depends on the fileserver.
i'd forgotten ^t^tr worked on cpuservers too so if you have created
a fileserver using a cpuserver then it will reboot it. my bad.

probably ^t^tr should be disallowed on cpuservers in the same way
that ^p can be.

a fileserver is best located in an air-conditioned room with good
power and the console should rarely be accessed.

On Tue Aug 22 13:10:28 EDT 2006, slawmaster@gmail.com wrote:
> On 8/22/06, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> > On Tue Aug 22 13:04:09 EDT 2006, slawmaster@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Well, you have to have disks /somewhere/, and that machine is the one
> > > I was worried about.
> > > ...
> >
> > /somewhere/ is not somewhere you can type ^t^tr.
> >
> 
> Oh? Does the combo not work on file servers? Or are you saying that I
> shouldn't have access to the console?
> 
> John
> -- 
> "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[elbing]

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>Are the current libraries sufficient for making an action game on plan9?
>I've been using SDL/Pygame for ages and haven't gone as low level as I >may
have to here.  Also, where should I be looking for documentation?

There's a test port of SDL in /sources/contrib/uriel.

elbing

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Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/22/06, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> whether ^t^tr works on a fileserver depends on the fileserver.
> i'd forgotten ^t^tr worked on cpuservers too so if you have created
> a fileserver using a cpuserver then it will reboot it. my bad.
>
> probably ^t^tr should be disallowed on cpuservers in the same way
> that ^p can be.
>
> a fileserver is best located in an air-conditioned room with good
> power and the console should rarely be accessed.
>

I wish I had an air-conditioned room with good power and a lock on the
door. Instead, my server currently lives on a table in an uncooled
garage. Most of the week, it is powered down. Hopefully I can set up
something better when I get back to school. :-)

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[erik quanstrom]

could i suggest this be a plan9.ini (or wherever) option?  not everyone
has a server room, and not every server is equally critical.

/dev/reboot will also do it.

- erik

On Tue Aug 22 12:23:07 CDT 2006, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> whether ^t^tr works on a fileserver depends on the fileserver.
> i'd forgotten ^t^tr worked on cpuservers too so if you have created
> a fileserver using a cpuserver then it will reboot it. my bad.
> 
> probably ^t^tr should be disallowed on cpuservers in the same way
> that ^p can be.
> 
> a fileserver is best located in an air-conditioned room with good
> power and the console should rarely be accessed.
> 

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[Sape Mullender]

> On Tue Aug 22 13:04:09 EDT 2006, slawmaster@gmail.com wrote:
>> ...
>> Well, you have to have disks /somewhere/, and that machine is the one
>> I was worried about.
>> ...
> 
> /somewhere/ is not somewhere you can type ^t^tr.

A few of us, unfortunately, have only one machine to run Plan 9 on.

Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> A few of us, unfortunately, have only one machine to run Plan 9 on.

Let alone a permanently attached network connection :-(

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] First attempts

[andrey mirtchovski]

nevermind the fact that fossil has been pretty good about not losing
data when you reboot it. also nevermind that you can always go back to
the latest venti dump if things go bad.

^t^t r isn't that bad on a file server. it happened a few weeks ago
here, it will happen again.

[9fans] Re: First attempts

[Dave Eckhardt]

Personally I'd like to see a "Maze War" clone (that was perhaps
the original first-person-shooter game).  I bet there's code
kicking around you could start from.  You could do an IP version,
or maybe use a set of named pipes on a handy Plan 9 file server
to do your networking instead.

Dave Eckhardt

Re: [9fans] Re: First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/22/06, Dave Eckhardt <davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Personally I'd like to see a "Maze War" clone (that was perhaps
> the original first-person-shooter game).  I bet there's code
> kicking around you could start from.  You could do an IP version,
> or maybe use a set of named pipes on a handy Plan 9 file server
> to do your networking instead.
>
> Dave Eckhardt
>

I saw something a few months ago about Maze War; it was perfect with
the mouse and chording keyboard thing.

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: [9fans] Re: First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/22/06, Dave Eckhardt <davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> > Personally I'd like to see a "Maze War" clone (that was perhaps
> > the original first-person-shooter game).  I bet there's code
> > kicking around you could start from.  You could do an IP version,
> > or maybe use a set of named pipes on a handy Plan 9 file server
> > to do your networking instead.
> >
> > Dave Eckhardt
> >
>
> I saw something a few months ago about Maze War; it was perfect with
> the mouse and chording keyboard thing.
>
That's what I get for not paying attention. I meant to add that this
was Maze War on the Alto, which of course was the machine that *had*
the chording keyboard.

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: Re: [9fans] Re: First attempts

[David Leimbach]

On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/22/06, Dave Eckhardt <davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> > > Personally I'd like to see a "Maze War" clone (that was perhaps
> > > the original first-person-shooter game).  I bet there's code
> > > kicking around you could start from.  You could do an IP version,
> > > or maybe use a set of named pipes on a handy Plan 9 file server
> > > to do your networking instead.
> > >
> > > Dave Eckhardt
> > >
> >
> > I saw something a few months ago about Maze War; it was perfect with
> > the mouse and chording keyboard thing.
> >
> That's what I get for not paying attention. I meant to add that this
> was Maze War on the Alto, which of course was the machine that *had*
> the chording keyboard.
>
> John

I think I want a chording keyboard too...  I wonder who could be
convinced to make one since my EE-fu is possibly the worst ever.

Re: Re: [9fans] Re: First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/23/06, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 8/22/06, Dave Eckhardt <davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> > > > Personally I'd like to see a "Maze War" clone (that was perhaps
> > > > the original first-person-shooter game).  I bet there's code
> > > > kicking around you could start from.  You could do an IP version,
> > > > or maybe use a set of named pipes on a handy Plan 9 file server
> > > > to do your networking instead.
> > > >
> > > > Dave Eckhardt
> > > >
> > >
> > > I saw something a few months ago about Maze War; it was perfect with
> > > the mouse and chording keyboard thing.
> > >
> > That's what I get for not paying attention. I meant to add that this
> > was Maze War on the Alto, which of course was the machine that *had*
> > the chording keyboard.
> >
> > John
>
> I think I want a chording keyboard too...  I wonder who could be
> convinced to make one since my EE-fu is possibly the worst ever.
>

Well, first ask Xerox for the schematics and specs on theirs... I
wonder if they would give them to you, since they no longer produce
it. Perhaps if you assured them you only want to make one unit for
yourself, they would. Of course, then you have to convert from
whatever their unit outputs to PS/2, but it would be a nice thing to
have.

If you get anywhere, find any schematics, etc., post them here or send
them to me. My EE-fu might be sufficient.

(New subject) Weren't the chording keyboard and the mouse designed to
go together? If I could type with one hand while having the other on
the mouse, I could see how Plan 9 would be *perfect*. As it is, I
still get annoyed when I have to take my hands from the keyboard (yes,
I've read all the stuff about how it isn't /really/ faster, but I
can't really believe that it's faster to grab the mouse and click than
it is to alt-tab--at least in some cases).


John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: [9fans] Re: First attempts

[Brantley Coile]

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/AltoSchems/

John Floren wrote:
> On 8/23/06, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 8/23/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > On 8/22/06, Dave Eckhardt <davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
>> > > > Personally I'd like to see a "Maze War" clone (that was perhaps
>> > > > the original first-person-shooter game).  I bet there's code
>> > > > kicking around you could start from.  You could do an IP version,
>> > > > or maybe use a set of named pipes on a handy Plan 9 file server
>> > > > to do your networking instead.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dave Eckhardt
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > I saw something a few months ago about Maze War; it was perfect with
>> > > the mouse and chording keyboard thing.
>> > >
>> > That's what I get for not paying attention. I meant to add that this
>> > was Maze War on the Alto, which of course was the machine that *had*
>> > the chording keyboard.
>> >
>> > John
>>
>> I think I want a chording keyboard too...  I wonder who could be
>> convinced to make one since my EE-fu is possibly the worst ever.
>>
> 
> Well, first ask Xerox for the schematics and specs on theirs... I
> wonder if they would give them to you, since they no longer produce
> it. Perhaps if you assured them you only want to make one unit for
> yourself, they would. Of course, then you have to convert from
> whatever their unit outputs to PS/2, but it would be a nice thing to
> have.
> 
> If you get anywhere, find any schematics, etc., post them here or send
> them to me. My EE-fu might be sufficient.
> 
> (New subject) Weren't the chording keyboard and the mouse designed to
> go together? If I could type with one hand while having the other on
> the mouse, I could see how Plan 9 would be *perfect*. As it is, I
> still get annoyed when I have to take my hands from the keyboard (yes,
> I've read all the stuff about how it isn't /really/ faster, but I
> can't really believe that it's faster to grab the mouse and click than
> it is to alt-tab--at least in some cases).
> 
> 
> John

Re: [9fans] Re: First attempts

[John Floren]

On 8/23/06, Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com> wrote:
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/alto/AltoSchems/
>
<snip>
Do those pdfs contain info on the chording keyboard? I found one about
the regular QWERTY keyboard, but not the chording one. Am I just
looking in the wrong place?


John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI