From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4558 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 19:00:29 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 19:00:29 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D3B2DA35 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM5bae393595a57178e96c5959.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id B16BD1457B1E; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:28 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=EMxB67kBig3ZuJgdaDADnW3YilKEy5Lu7mRZ1tans5o=; b=DYbaYXAfmY9W DeruNh5CthPfn461VsJP9w4Z9CrarzMdOMVdvDluRR1qTYQfgP4nhWpT8yO5PkbC vnzAm6MkYv6iB+hyP38S7FRnTCLwkYjqhJ7XTIRvJqIN5S+scB7sHjyYLnzbPGxf CAcdMSRRgnam+0p/4SsS12KZ5uhhpyg= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434828230.8EFfBb.977499@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434828231.F940Bd.977499 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b644830a-8135-11ec-8274-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNWJhZTM5MzU5NWE1NzE3OGU5NmM1?= =?UTF-8?B?OTU5Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5bae393595a57178e96c5959:1:HKDy9P6GAiJtCvB5H6wW8DwRDeM12RVNlt-TU5I-zBU --16434828231.F940Bd.977499 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:12 PM, Grant Defayette wrote: > Honestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These = kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and= it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve? Y= ou want to switch from an easy to maintain by any Unix expert with fully av= ailable source to an obscure system that very few people use today and migh= t have issues with redistribution of sources and fonts etc just to satisfy = a constraint that doesn't exist. This is the kind of thing that would only = fly at a university where they allow people to make strange decisions that = solve problems that don't really=C2=A0exist. I wrote earlier that the first project I'm using plan9 now is this kiosk ap= plication and this was already realized with FreeBSD. The purpose of such a= step was also to test how difficult would it be to realize a project with = plan9. I am also developing embedded software for bare metal and this test = made clear plan9 is the best choice for this kind of projects. Its small th= e underlying abstractions fulfilled their purpose and you get a full fledge= d OS useful for many tasks if you are brave enough to change some parts whi= ch won't fit your demands.=20 We are writing on 9fans so everyone present here made the choice to at leas= t test a system which you call "obscure system that very few people use tod= ay". plan9 was a research project to start with and its not obscure at all.= plan9, 9front are available running on different hardware even in raspberr= y pi (4 B) out of the box. I don't think that its a strange decision to use= an existing working platform to realize projects. The code quality is good= as could be expected from people who created unix. As a side note when the= first ten people used unix and others also decided to switch than all of t= hem made this so called "strange decision" and today unix used everywhere.= =20 I didn't have any remarkable problems substituting the fonts, and I won't h= ave any problems substituting the remaining parts which are not MIT license= d if needed.=20 You can only decide to use a project like this as a basement if you realize= a few projects using it. As the Bell people remarked on the plan9 papers p= lan9 was used as an embedded system in commercial projects. You think Bell = would have distributed this system and products based on it without verifyi= ng its reliability and quality ? The people involved in the development of = plan9 are creators of unix the most important compilers the best known tool= s and they used this in their daily work. If you look in one of the current= threads regarding a three buttoned mouse you will see that the first who a= nswered was Rob Pike who perhaps still uses acme and some form of plan9. I = don't have any doubts about the software quality of plan9 so be assured tha= t I will use this project without doubts and this decision is definitely no= t obscure. Believe it or not if plan9 had an MIT license from the beginning you can be= sure that the market share of plan9 would have be at least on the level of= BSD systems. Its simpler its smaller and the concepts are good. There woul= d have been forks cause of different tastes for the GUI but that is somethi= ng normal.=20 A kiosk app as a test case for the decision if the chosen OS can be handled= or causes unpredictable problems is the way I have chosen for myself. Afte= r a while I will learn about problems arising from this decision without ha= rming anybody. Not the users and not me as the maintainer.=C2=A0 This will = improve my experience.=20 Regarding the size of the image. This is a service I'm providing from a ded= icated Server on a commercial host. The most students today are using apple= mac books they can't and won't install any operating system on those machi= nes and I'm not willing to support x machine architectures for a students c= ourse. On my dedicated server there was placed a torrent file so I could ha= ndle the bandwidth problem in a acceptable way. At the beginning of each se= mester there are hundreds of downloads for this ISO. Estimated 60% of the s= tudents have to use virtual machines to start this ISO. Reducing the size o= f the ISO and the necessary RAM drive size where the ISO gets loaded to inc= reases the performance. If a student has a 4 GB laptop he can afford approx= imately 1 to 2 GB of system memory for use with the virtual machine. Beside= s the ISO you have to allocate process memory so the size impacts performan= ce regarding my experience. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M5bae3= 93595a57178e96c5959 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434828231.F940Bd.977499 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:12 PM, Gran= t Defayette wrote:
Ho= nestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These = kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and= it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve? Y= ou want to switch from an easy to maintain by any Unix expert with fully av= ailable source to an obscure system that very few people use today and migh= t have issues with redistribution of sources and fonts etc just to satisfy = a constraint that doesn't exist. This is the kind of thing that would o= nly fly at a university where they allow people to make strange decisions t= hat solve problems that don't really exist.

I wrote earlier that the first project I'm usin= g plan9 now is this kiosk application and this was already realized with Fr= eeBSD. The purpose of such a step was also to test how difficult would it b= e to realize a project with plan9. I am also developing embedded software f= or bare metal and this test made clear plan9 is the best choice for this ki= nd of projects. Its small the underlying abstractions fulfilled their purpo= se and you get a full fledged OS useful for many tasks if you are brave eno= ugh to change some parts which won't fit your demands.

We are writing on 9fans so everyone present here made the= choice to at least test a system which you call "obscure system that = very few people use today". plan9 was a research project to start with= and its not obscure at all. plan9, 9front are available running on differe= nt hardware even in raspberry pi (4 B) out of the box. I don't think th= at its a strange decision to use an existing working platform to realize pr= ojects. The code quality is good as could be expected from people who creat= ed unix. As a side note when the first ten people used unix and others also= decided to switch than all of them made this so called "strange decis= ion" and today unix used everywhere.

I didn't have any remarkable problems substituting the fonts, and I wo= n't have any problems substituting the remaining parts which are not MI= T licensed if needed.

You can only decide= to use a project like this as a basement if you realize a few projects usi= ng it. As the Bell people remarked on the plan9 papers plan9 was used as an= embedded system in commercial projects. You think Bell would have distribu= ted this system and products based on it without verifying its reliability = and quality ? The people involved in the development of plan9 are creators = of unix the most important compilers the best known tools and they used thi= s in their daily work. If you look in one of the current threads regarding = a three buttoned mouse you will see that the first who answered was Rob Pik= e who perhaps still uses acme and some form of plan9. I don't have any = doubts about the software quality of plan9 so be assured that I will use th= is project without doubts and this decision is definitely not obscure.

Believe it or not if plan9 had an MIT license = from the beginning you can be sure that the market share of plan9 would hav= e be at least on the level of BSD systems. Its simpler its smaller and the = concepts are good. There would have been forks cause of different tastes fo= r the GUI but that is something normal.

A= kiosk app as a test case for the decision if the chosen OS can be handled = or causes unpredictable problems is the way I have chosen for myself. After= a while I will learn about problems arising from this decision without har= ming anybody. Not the users and not me as the maintainer.  This will i= mprove my experience.

Regarding the size = of the image. This is a service I'm providing from a dedicated Server o= n a commercial host. The most students today are using apple mac books they= can't and won't install any operating system on those machines and= I'm not willing to support x machine architectures for a students cour= se. On my dedicated server there was placed a torrent file so I could handl= e the bandwidth problem in a acceptable way. At the beginning of each semes= ter there are hundreds of downloads for this ISO. Estimated 60% of the stud= ents have to use virtual machines to start this ISO. Reducing the size of t= he ISO and the necessary RAM drive size where the ISO gets loaded to increa= ses the performance. If a student has a 4 GB laptop he can afford approxima= tely 1 to 2 GB of system memory for use with the virtual machine. Besides t= he ISO you have to allocate process memory so the size impacts performance = regarding my experience.

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