From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1AC240F2 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 05:52:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AAFF1BC45 for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:52:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mM0ab3105590e43b53a386c847.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 88DA7187F18C; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:52:34 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:from:list-unsubscribe; s= dkim-1; t=1715572354; x=1715658754; bh=l02MM+ERRncZDxGzwr3dZozSJ lsjt5wUk83CN/85tlk=; b=YCEzDN0Gy1Y+WKHPgI/PzVJETduHcb6bCgpsIDaDX we1XGmV0sC68CN7KPp1Q5W5bj3gtk1cqL1hpga9wNpODezVfNUbxjTpDm441pYyx tcB4rgcfMevJjcVSd0fbWI8H2k9JlVPtfPqXWWHDmNoK4zPYCAyFn2B8jHsJbH6Z c8= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Message-Id: <17155723490.63cF0a1BB.31755@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <7eb7bd48-c6c1-4649-8c7b-000df046fed1@posixcafe.org> In-Reply-To: <7eb7bd48-c6c1-4649-8c7b-000df046fed1@posixcafe.org> Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 23:52:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=17155723491.Da608c9A.31755 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 38649a40-10dc-11ef-80f4-876641decc0b Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NMGFiMzEwNTU5MGU0M2I1M2EzODZj?= =?UTF-8?B?ODQ3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0ab3105590e43b53a386c847:1:NHqXX8osGNZWyMR11AgVlCE_OGu6D7LC0kWIDUJKwes --17155723491.Da608c9A.31755 Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 23:52:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 5:09 AM, Jacob Moody wrote: > When people suggest tossing that all out for a minimally patched 4e, I th= ink some people rightfully feel a bit annoyed. That's a lot of baby that goes out with that= bathwater. It's Davids decission what he includes as patches for the 4th edition but I= would toss everything out of 9legacy which isn't part of the 4th edition o= r contributed by the team members at Bell Labs from their archives as enhan= cements.=20 The reasoning is simple : p9f owns the rights for the final release and Nok= ia has made this release available under a MIT license. Every one who uses = plan9 not only to toy around or his/her personal use but also as a system w= hich he/she distributes like I do can't afford risks with code integrated f= rom sources like 9front. There are some libraries taken from 9front derived= from other open source projects like freetype (truetype) where copyright n= otices are absent and this isn't the only library where in code comments th= e sources are named but the original copyright notices are absent.=20 plan9 as represented by p9f has a clear license all parts which are not MIT= licensed are marked as such but code back ported from other forks like 9fr= ont contain code where I have doubts if those are really under an MIT licen= se as you state in your documentation cause deriving from a different licen= se or taking large amounts of code doesn't remove viral licenses like LGPL = or GPL. It would be in the interest of plan9 and all who professionally use it in e= mbedded systems or as a distributed operating system to keep suspicious cod= e out of the 9legacy CD. If really necessary to provide such contributions = or back ports I wouldn't place them in the system folders but as it was in = the past in contrib folders for additional download. The risks to infect a = clearly licensed system gifted by Nokia to all of us to make best use of it= for free commercial private embedded ... solutions are to high and I would= really prefer it when nothing from forks like 9front would take its way in= to the 9legacy CD ROM which is defined as : =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Plan 9 archives, reference= releases of Plan 9. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 9legacy, Plan 9 with many = useful patches applied. Download page has an =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 installation CD image incl= uding 386, amd64, and arm kernels and binaries; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a bootable USB image for 3= 86; a bootable SD card image for Raspberry Pi; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and virtual disk images fo= r QEMU and GCE. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The 4th Edition distributi= on from Bell Labs: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 live CD/install CD/USB ima= ge, installation notes, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 browse the source, additio= nal software I respect your fork 9front but I won't and can't use it. 9front isn't plan9= from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with patches for the file= s from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken from open source proje= cts by copy and paste. The moment I and others who use plan9 for distributi= on or embed it on systems we have to be absolutely sure about the sources o= f the code. I can trust Bell Labs, Nokia, p9f but I won't trust some guys w= ho toy around with their fork of plan9. The moment FSF or another organisat= ion starts to suit me because they recognized that some guy at any forked s= ystem has copy pasted code from a viral licensed project I am the one who h= as to take the consequences.=20 The first thing I am doing after downloading an iso from 9 legacy is to rem= ove all files which were not part of the final plan9 release. The second th= ing I have always to do is removing all patches from the iso which came fro= m sources I can't be sure if they really followed licensing rules. The thir= d thing I have to do before distributing my fork of plan9 is to remove font= s ghostscript diff page and other parts of the system which would infect th= e distribution media to make sure the created system is not depending on vi= ral licensed code.=20 My fork isn't the only one which gets distributed. I'm sure there exist mil= lions of devices with plan9 integrated without anyone noticing except for t= hose who look into the documentation where the MIT licensed copyright is pl= aced.=20 If people from forks like 9front are talking about numbers of their users I= always have to laugh. My fork is right now used by about 500 people per se= mester more users. And be assured this is an unimportant number. Not a single developer who uses plan9 for distributed systems, commercial p= roducts will dare to use a system like 9front as the sources. The reason is= quite simple : You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MIT lic= ense long before Nokia as the owner of it decided to do so. You did that at= a time when plan9 was placed under GPL.=20 9front is a fork your fork I respect your work. But all your commits and en= hancements are absolutly useless for people who intend or use plan9 not onl= y=C2=A0 to play around with this system but make professional use of it. Th= e first thing such people have to check is the way you handle licenses.=20 Therefore 9front is a fork but p9f's provided final release is the real thi= ng with a clear ownership and license. 9legacy would be the right choice as= the current plan9 but it contains code from sources which bare the risk of= infecting a MIT licensed plan9 if no measures are taken regarding these pr= oblems. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M0ab31= 05590e43b53a386c847 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --17155723491.Da608c9A.31755 Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 23:52:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 5:09 AM, Jacob Mood= y wrote:
When people suggest tossing t= hat all out for a minimally patched 4e, I think some people rightfully feel a bit annoyed. That's a lot of baby that goes out with = that bathwater.

It's Davids dec= ission what he includes as patches for the 4th edition but I would toss eve= rything out of 9legacy which isn't part of the 4th edition or contribut= ed by the team members at Bell Labs from their archives as enhancements.

The reasoning is simple : p9f owns the righ= ts for the final release and Nokia has made this release available under a = MIT license. Every one who uses plan9 not only to toy around or his/her per= sonal use but also as a system which he/she distributes like I do can't= afford risks with code integrated from sources like 9front. There are some= libraries taken from 9front derived from other open source projects like f= reetype (truetype) where copyright notices are absent and this isn't th= e only library where in code comments the sources are named but the origina= l copyright notices are absent.

plan9 as = represented by p9f has a clear license all parts which are not MIT licensed= are marked as such but code back ported from other forks like 9front conta= in code where I have doubts if those are really under an MIT license as you= state in your documentation cause deriving from a different license or tak= ing large amounts of code doesn't remove viral licenses like LGPL or GP= L.

It would be in the interest of plan9 an= d all who professionally use it in embedded systems or as a distributed ope= rating system to keep suspicious code out of the 9legacy CD. If really nece= ssary to provide such contributions or back ports I wouldn't place them= in the system folders but as it was in the past in contrib folders for add= itional download. The risks to infect a clearly licensed system gifted by N= okia to all of us to make best use of it for free commercial private embedd= ed ... solutions are to high and I would really prefer it when nothing from= forks like 9front would take its way into the 9legacy CD ROM which is defi= ned as :

     &nb= sp;   Plan 9 archives, reference releases of Plan 9.
<= div>       
  =        9legacy, Plan 9 with many useful patch= es applied. Download page has an
    &n= bsp;    installation CD image including 386, amd64, and arm = kernels and binaries;
      &= nbsp;  a bootable USB image for 386; a bootable SD card image for Rasp= berry Pi;
         = and virtual disk images for QEMU and GCE.
   = ;    
     &nb= sp;   The 4th Edition distribution from Bell Labs:
         live CD/install CD/USB i= mage, installation notes,
     &nb= sp;   browse the source, additional software

I respect your fork 9front but I won't and can't use i= t. 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release = with patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't= taken from open source projects by copy and paste. The moment I and others= who use plan9 for distribution or embed it on systems we have to be absolu= tely sure about the sources of the code. I can trust Bell Labs, Nokia, p9f = but I won't trust some guys who toy around with their fork of plan9. Th= e moment FSF or another organisation starts to suit me because they recogni= zed that some guy at any forked system has copy pasted code from a viral li= censed project I am the one who has to take the consequences.
<= div>
The first thing I am doing after downloading an iso fr= om 9 legacy is to remove all files which were not part of the final plan9 r= elease. The second thing I have always to do is removing all patches from t= he iso which came from sources I can't be sure if they really followed = licensing rules. The third thing I have to do before distributing my fork o= f plan9 is to remove fonts ghostscript diff page and other parts of the sys= tem which would infect the distribution media to make sure the created syst= em is not depending on viral licensed code.

My fork isn't the only one which gets distributed. I'm sure ther= e exist millions of devices with plan9 integrated without anyone noticing e= xcept for those who look into the documentation where the MIT licensed copy= right is placed.

If people from forks lik= e 9front are talking about numbers of their users I always have to laugh. M= y fork is right now used by about 500 people per semester more users. And b= e assured this is an unimportant number.

N= ot a single developer who uses plan9 for distributed systems, commercial pr= oducts will dare to use a system like 9front as the sources. The reason is = quite simple :

You ignore copyrights as yo= u please and distributed 9front under an MIT license long before Nokia as t= he owner of it decided to do so. You did that at a time when plan9 was plac= ed under GPL.

9front is a fork your fork = I respect your work. But all your commits and enhancements are absolutly us= eless for people who intend or use plan9 not only  to play around with= this system but make professional use of it. The first thing such people h= ave to check is the way you handle licenses.

<= div>Therefore 9front is a fork but p9f's provided final release is the = real thing with a clear ownership and license. 9legacy would be the right c= hoice as the current plan9 but it contains code from sources which bare the= risk of infecting a MIT licensed plan9 if no measures are taken regarding = these problems.


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