From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861172163C for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 11:22:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356EA22B61 for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 05:22:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mM7e742d8d84209fb41f920f30.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 339299DC91E; Mon, 13 May 2024 05:22:58 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:from:list-unsubscribe; s= dkim-1; t=1715592178; x=1715678578; bh=rd+Ee4N3pRY3//0u5Ii1SbE4X qePD3J7SQBOd78yXBY=; b=TsYcfueVZa5oDf/1+clBJwYGDnuI+y7aPiFTua6oO vFS44iRANVpqI/0nmlBGz1yBw7FRUfR6bAmWqSw6nSqtns/pX50hQQkHJC730Ag0 E3VEuDUNIZmCUouV4HMgm6K+it5XB9Q2YuACt6FfX8/y2iNh3W24ih3j2shnf2xO Fs= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Message-Id: <17155921690.3bf6.679459@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: <7eb7bd48-c6c1-4649-8c7b-000df046fed1@posixcafe.org> <17155723490.63cF0a1BB.31755@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17155862790.b8aBca6c.427179@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 05:22:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=17155921691.C6FbC.679459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5e00a400-110a-11ef-b7cb-20772b2d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NN2U3NDJkOGQ4NDIwOWZiNDFmOTIw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjMwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7e742d8d84209fb41f920f30:1:oY_tPsmG1FnnasrmkRIPyafdTjvQbEIwKNfGzF5JfUg --17155921691.C6FbC.679459 Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 05:22:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the license= s are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they should!). >=20 > So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX=E2=84=A2 or unix or pos= ix? Who knows... >=20 > I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's enoug= h and you can puzzle everything else yourself. plan9 is simply the final release made by bell labs and now owned by p9f. T= hats not my interpretation this is a fact. Everything beyond that point is = a fork based on plan9.=C2=A0 Everyone is allowed to derive his/her work from this provided version of pl= an9. 9front is a fork, 9legacy is a fork and there were other forks. I have my o= wn fork. If tomorrow another one decides to fork plan9 than thats okay.=20 9front isn't plan9. 9front is a fork based on plan9. Why is it that you can= 't accept this fact. You aren't the owners of plan9 and you don't=C2=A0 eve= n own the trademark plan9.=20 Your fork is called 9front and its absolutely okay to fork from code with a= license that allows this.=20 Your fork based on plan9 is extremely close to the original. But that doesn= 't mean you are the continuation of plan9.=20 The only thing we can agree on as fork developers is what is officially cal= led plan9 as a basement for exchange of code ideas aso. Code that can be co= mpiled and executed on the official release is one that can be exchanged.=20 There is only one group on this messaging board which has a problem with th= is definition of plan9 thats 9front. You insist on being seen as the contin= uation of plan9 but you aren't. You could have become this by buying plan9 = from nokia and the trademark or nokia could have chosen you to hand it over= to you but they didn't. p9f owns plan9 and if they ever decide to hand it = over to you than you become officially the owner and continuation of plan9 = but this won't change the fact that meanwhile others have forked from plan9= and call themselves fork xyz based on plan9 and you to respect this.=20 Why is it so difficult for folks of 9front to accept that they are providin= g a fork based on plan9. > [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front peo= ple have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for a few = people.) >=20 And so what ? Compared to the replies of some folks from 9front regarding s= imple questions there is nothing bold about my statements. This is 9fans an= d if you start the same discussions over and over again than you have to li= ve with answers like mine. Neither you nor I own plan9 while people outside= 9front have no problem with facts you have this problem. You can't just ac= cept the fact that 9front is a fork like many others. You may do a good job= for your users and many enjoy using 9front as stated many times here on th= is board but but you do your job others do their job and you are in no posi= tion to give directions to others. I respect your work continue with it but= don't act as if you are the ones who are in possession of plan9 or can dic= tate directions you can't and I also can't. I'm fed up with the regularly d= isputes you search with people who don't want to use your fork. I'm not usi= ng it and nothing will change my mind. > About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial p= roducts, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never hear= d about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other companies w= ho actually use plan 9. >=20 > Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and n= obody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a single co= mpany that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw that could e= volve into commercial products. I am and have acted as an advisor for many of these projects. The license c= hange made it attractive for such projects cause you can keep your code clo= sed source. The only duty to fulfill is providing the terms of the MIT lice= nse. You don't have to make your technology open source like you would have= to if you used Linux.=20 Don't underestimate the potential. Another example for a tiny os which is w= ide spread is Xinu which no one would expect. Plan9 has advantages over oth= er systems that makes it attractive. I can only talk about those projects I= know but be assured there are millions of devices around which run plan9 w= ithout anyone noticing.=20 Again for the x-th time : I don't have a problem with 9front. I don't use i= t but I respect your work. The only think I dislike is the never ending dis= cussions about plan9 being dead and 9front being the only choice and the at= titude in some replies to questions of people on this board in an harsh and= aggressive way. The moment one asks about 9legacy or plan9 and one from 9f= ront advices to use 9front without success many of 9front getting aggressiv= e and thats not right. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M7e742= d8d84209fb41f920f30 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --17155921691.C6FbC.679459 Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 05:22:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would make a big d= ifference between what plan 9 is and what the licenses are. Software doesn&= #39;t care about licenses. People do (and they should!).
So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or = unix or posix? Who knows...

I guess I coul= d say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's enough and you ca= n puzzle everything else yourself.

plan9 is simply the final release made by bell labs and now owned by = p9f. Thats not my interpretation this is a fact. Everything beyond that poi= nt is a fork based on plan9. 

Everyon= e is allowed to derive his/her work from this provided version of plan9.

9front is a fork, 9legacy is a fork and ther= e were other forks. I have my own fork. If tomorrow another one decides to = fork plan9 than thats okay.

9front isn= 9;t plan9. 9front is a fork based on plan9. Why is it that you can't ac= cept this fact. You aren't the owners of plan9 and you don't  = even own the trademark plan9.

Your fork i= s called 9front and its absolutely okay to fork from code with a license th= at allows this.

Your fork based on plan9 = is extremely close to the original. But that doesn't mean you are the c= ontinuation of plan9.

The only thing we c= an agree on as fork developers is what is officially called plan9 as a base= ment for exchange of code ideas aso. Code that can be compiled and executed= on the official release is one that can be exchanged.
There is only one group on this messaging board which has a p= roblem with this definition of plan9 thats 9front. You insist on being seen= as the continuation of plan9 but you aren't. You could have become thi= s by buying plan9 from nokia and the trademark or nokia could have chosen y= ou to hand it over to you but they didn't. p9f owns plan9 and if they e= ver decide to hand it over to you than you become officially the owner and = continuation of plan9 but this won't change the fact that meanwhile oth= ers have forked from plan9 and call themselves fork xyz based on plan9 and = you to respect this.

Why is it so difficu= lt for folks of 9front to accept that they are providing a fork based on pl= an9.

[1] (I woul= d be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front people have hear= d this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for a few people.)<= br />


And so what = ? Compared to the replies of some folks from 9front regarding simple questi= ons there is nothing bold about my statements. This is 9fans and if you sta= rt the same discussions over and over again than you have to live with answ= ers like mine. Neither you nor I own plan9 while people outside 9front have= no problem with facts you have this problem. You can't just accept the= fact that 9front is a fork like many others. You may do a good job for you= r users and many enjoy using 9front as stated many times here on this board= but but you do your job others do their job and you are in no position to = give directions to others. I respect your work continue with it but don'= ;t act as if you are the ones who are in possession of plan9 or can dictate= directions you can't and I also can't. I'm fed up with the reg= ularly disputes you search with people who don't want to use your fork.= I'm not using it and nothing will change my mind.

About another topic: you mentioned t= hat plan 9 is in use for commercial products, and you explicitly mention ge= rman medical sensors. I've never heard about that and I'd like to l= earn more, as well as about other companies who actually use plan 9.
<= /div>

Everything I always hear in the industry is that= plan 9 is outdated and nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I= only know of a single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little pro= jects by taw that could evolve into commercial products.

I am and have acted as an advisor for many of t= hese projects. The license change made it attractive for such projects caus= e you can keep your code closed source. The only duty to fulfill is providi= ng the terms of the MIT license. You don't have to make your technology= open source like you would have to if you used Linux.
Don't underestimate the potential. Another example for a = tiny os which is wide spread is Xinu which no one would expect. Plan9 has a= dvantages over other systems that makes it attractive. I can only talk abou= t those projects I know but be assured there are millions of devices around= which run plan9 without anyone noticing.


Again for the x-th time : I don't have a problem with= 9front. I don't use it but I respect your work. The only think I disli= ke is the never ending discussions about plan9 being dead and 9front being = the only choice and the attitude in some replies to questions of people on = this board in an harsh and aggressive way. The moment one asks about 9legac= y or plan9 and one from 9front advices to use 9front without success many o= f 9front getting aggressive and thats not right.


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