[9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Marco Feichtinger]

venti/mirrorarenas is undocumented, and I couldn't find any topic here,
which goes into more detail.

So I am curious how does it work, 
how does one to set it up, so the arenas get mirrored automatically,
and why do you use it instead of fs(3) mirror?

-marco


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[9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3707 bytes --]

ᎦᎦᏐᎩ ᏚᎵᏍᏗ, 
ᏓᏟᎶᏍᏛ ᎢᎦᏍᏗᎢ, 
ᏴᏫ ᎤᏍᏗᏁᎸ.*

Setting Up and Managing Venti with Automatic Mirroring in Plan 9*

Plan 9 from Bell Labs offers innovative tools, including Venti, a network storage system for archiving. This essay outlines the setup and management of Venti with automatic mirroring and compares it to the `fs(3)` mirror.

*Introduction to Venti*

Venti is a content-addressable storage system that uses cryptographic hashes (typically SHA-1) to identify data blocks. This ensures that identical blocks are stored only once, known as deduplication. Venti's write-once nature makes it ideal for archival storage, guaranteeing data integrity.

*Configuring Venti for Automatic Mirroring*

To achieve redundancy and data integrity, configure Venti with multiple storage arenas, including mirror arenas.

*1. **Installation and Initial Configuration*

Ensure Venti is installed as part of Plan 9. Use a configuration file (`venti.conf`) to specify storage arenas and other settings. A basic configuration might look like this:

   arena /srv/venti/arena1
   arena /srv/venti/arena2
   arena /srv/venti/mirror1
   arena /srv/venti/mirror2
   root /srv/venti/root
   log /srv/venti/log

*2. **Initialization of Arenas*

   Initialize each arena using the `venti/fmt` command:

   venti/fmt -c /path/to/venti.conf

*3.** Starting the Venti Server*

   Start the Venti server to handle storage operations:

   venti -c /path/to/venti.conf

*4. **Automating Mirroring with Custom Scripts*

   Ensure data is mirrored automatically across arenas by using custom scripts. An example mirroring script might look like this:

   #!/bin/rc

   fn mirror {
       source=$1
       target=$2

       for block in `{ls $source/*} {
           cp $block $target/$block
       }
   }

   mirror /srv/venti/arena1 /srv/venti/mirror1
   mirror /srv/venti/arena2 /srv/venti/mirror2

*5. Scheduling the Mirroring Script*

   Schedule the script to run at regular intervals, ensuring consistent data mirroring.

*Advantages of Using Venti Over `fs(3)` Mirror*

Venti has several advantages over the `fs(3)` mirror:

*1. Content-Addressable Storage:* Venti's use of cryptographic hashes ensures efficient storage through deduplication. This is beneficial for backup and archival purposes.

*2. Immutability*: Venti’s write-once nature ensures stored data remains unchanged and authentic over time.

*3. Data Integrity*: Venti's reliance on cryptographic hashes provides strong data integrity guarantees.

*4. Scalability*: Venti can scale efficiently by adding more storage arenas, handling large volumes of data by distributing the load.

*5. Efficient Backup Solutions*: Venti's deduplication and immutability make it ideal for creating reliable and efficient backup solutions.

*Conclusion*

Setting up and managing Venti with automatic mirroring involves configuring multiple storage arenas, initializing them, and using scripts to ensure data replication. This setup provides redundancy and data integrity while leveraging Venti’s unique features. Though `fs(3)` mirror offers redundancy, Venti's deduplication, data integrity, and scalability make it a superior choice for archival and backup storage in Plan 9. Follow these steps to deploy a reliable and efficient storage system using Venti.
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Cherokee [Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage)]

[quiekaizam via 9fans]

Okay, you successfully sniped me. What does your Cherokee translate to in
English?

> ᎦᎦᏐᎩ ᏚᎵᏍᏗ, 
> ᏓᏟᎶᏍᏛ ᎢᎦᏍᏗᎢ, 
> ᏴᏫ ᎤᏍᏗᏁᎸ.*

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Re: Cherokee [Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage)]

[kalona.ayeliski]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2024, at 15:57, quiekaizam@wilsonb.com wrote:
> Okay, you successfully sniped me. What does your Cherokee translate to in
> English?
>
>> ᎦᎦᏐᎩ ᏚᎵᏍᏗ, 
>> ᏓᏟᎶᏍᏛ ᎢᎦᏍᏗᎢ, 
>> ᏴᏫ ᎤᏍᏗᏁᎸ.*

Gentle raindrops fall,  
Whispers in the quiet night,  
Nature's lullaby.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[hiro]

can you please put disclaimers when you distribute AI generated content?
even better: if possible distribute your used prompt, too.

On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 8:19 AM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:
>
> ᎦᎦᏐᎩ ᏚᎵᏍᏗ,
> ᏓᏟᎶᏍᏛ ᎢᎦᏍᏗᎢ,
> ᏴᏫ ᎤᏍᏗᏁᎸ.
>
> Setting Up and Managing Venti with Automatic Mirroring in Plan 9
>
> Plan 9 from Bell Labs offers innovative tools, including Venti, a network storage system for archiving. This essay outlines the setup and management of Venti with automatic mirroring and compares it to the `fs(3)` mirror.
>
> Introduction to Venti
>
> Venti is a content-addressable storage system that uses cryptographic hashes (typically SHA-1) to identify data blocks. This ensures that identical blocks are stored only once, known as deduplication. Venti's write-once nature makes it ideal for archival storage, guaranteeing data integrity.
>
> Configuring Venti for Automatic Mirroring
>
> To achieve redundancy and data integrity, configure Venti with multiple storage arenas, including mirror arenas.
>
> 1. Installation and Initial Configuration
>
> Ensure Venti is installed as part of Plan 9. Use a configuration file (`venti.conf`) to specify storage arenas and other settings. A basic configuration might look like this:
>
>    arena /srv/venti/arena1
>    arena /srv/venti/arena2
>    arena /srv/venti/mirror1
>    arena /srv/venti/mirror2
>    root /srv/venti/root
>    log /srv/venti/log
>
> 2. Initialization of Arenas
>
>    Initialize each arena using the `venti/fmt` command:
>
>    venti/fmt -c /path/to/venti.conf
>
> 3. Starting the Venti Server
>
>    Start the Venti server to handle storage operations:
>
>    venti -c /path/to/venti.conf
>
> 4. Automating Mirroring with Custom Scripts
>
>    Ensure data is mirrored automatically across arenas by using custom scripts. An example mirroring script might look like this:
>
>    #!/bin/rc
>
>    fn mirror {
>        source=$1
>        target=$2
>
>        for block in `{ls $source/*} {
>            cp $block $target/$block
>        }
>    }
>
>    mirror /srv/venti/arena1 /srv/venti/mirror1
>    mirror /srv/venti/arena2 /srv/venti/mirror2
>
> 5. Scheduling the Mirroring Script
>
>    Schedule the script to run at regular intervals, ensuring consistent data mirroring.
>
> Advantages of Using Venti Over `fs(3)` Mirror
>
> Venti has several advantages over the `fs(3)` mirror:
>
> 1. Content-Addressable Storage: Venti's use of cryptographic hashes ensures efficient storage through deduplication. This is beneficial for backup and archival purposes.
>
> 2. Immutability: Venti’s write-once nature ensures stored data remains unchanged and authentic over time.
>
> 3. Data Integrity: Venti's reliance on cryptographic hashes provides strong data integrity guarantees.
>
> 4. Scalability: Venti can scale efficiently by adding more storage arenas, handling large volumes of data by distributing the load.
>
> 5. Efficient Backup Solutions: Venti's deduplication and immutability make it ideal for creating reliable and efficient backup solutions.
>
> Conclusion
>
> Setting up and managing Venti with automatic mirroring involves configuring multiple storage arenas, initializing them, and using scripts to ensure data replication. This setup provides redundancy and data integrity while leveraging Venti’s unique features. Though `fs(3)` mirror offers redundancy, Venti's deduplication, data integrity, and scalability make it a superior choice for archival and backup storage in Plan 9. Follow these steps to deploy a reliable and efficient storage system using Venti.
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I will place this on my work and posts to show ownership. Attribute the work to me as you should:
Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[ori]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> 
> I will place this on my work and posts to show ownership. Attribute the work to me as you should:
> Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.
> 

given that the steps in 'automatic mirroring with custom scripts' will never work
as written, and smell like an llm hallucination: what steps did you take in testing
what you posted?

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Please elaborate on any issues you find in my work and explain where I am wrong.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 08:09:44PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> Please elaborate on any issues you find in my work and explain where I am wrong.

Why?  So you can type that into an LLM prompt as well?

kalona ayeliski are supposed to torture dying people, not computer
mailing lists

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Peer review involves presenting a claim, research, or work to others who are experts in the same field. These peers critically evaluate the work, test its assertions, and provide feedback. The goal is to ensure the validity, reliability, and originality of the work before it is published or widely accepted. This process is commonly used in academic and scientific research to maintain high standards of quality and credibility.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Dave Eckhardt]

> Peer review involves presenting a claim, research, or work to others
> who are experts in the same field.  These peers critically evaluate
> the work, test its assertions, and provide feedback.

The expected input domain of peer review is honest scholarly work
by a peer, i.e., an expert in the field.  Submitting the output of
a stochastic parrot to peer review would be an abuse of the process,
because a random-number generator is not a peer.

Dave Eckhardt

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I did all the work myself. If you choose to be dismissive, that is your prerogative. The original question remains unanswered; you have only complained and criticized, doing little to address it.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[moody]

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If you look at the top of the file you'll see:

/*
 * Mirror one arena partition onto another.  
 * Be careful to copy only new data.
 */

Now if you combine this with some of the information from venti(8):

          The data log is logically split into sections called arenas,
          typically sized for easy offline backup (e.g., 500MB).  A
          data log may comprise many disks, each storing one or more
          arenas.  Such disks are called arena partitions. Arena par-
          titions are filled in the order given in the configuration.

My best guess is that this is an incremental backup tool, where you give it a source and destination arena partition and the code looks at both, figures out the deltas, then copies over only what is needed. The venti code is a bit inscrutable and I'm no venti guy so take this with a grain of salt.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[ori]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> I did all the work myself. If you choose to be dismissive, that is your prerogative. The original question remains unanswered; you have only complained and criticized, doing little to address it.
>

uh huh. So, when you ran this code:

>    #!/bin/rc
>
>    fn mirror {
>        source=$1
>        target=$2
>
>        for block in `{ls $source/*} {
>            cp $block $target/$block
>        }
>    }
>
>    mirror /srv/venti/arena1 /srv/venti/mirror1
>    mirror /srv/venti/arena2 /srv/venti/mirror2

what was the output? what are the contents of /srv/venti?
what is the syntax for a for loop in rc?

*nothing* in that snippet will work.

you are lying to people, and wasting their time.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 09:33:31PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> I did all the work myself. If you choose to be dismissive, that is your prerogative. The original question remains unanswered; you have only complained and criticized, doing little to address it.

Vic?  Is that you?

There was no 'work.'  You didn't ask a question.  You made unhelpful
demands that other people bolster your shitty LLM output on their own
time.  That is not how peer review works.  Specifically, you are
nobody here's peer.


khm

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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No. The issue lies in the lack of responses to Marco's question and the minimal constructive feedback when someone does respond. I value the efforts of those who attempt to provide answers. If I am mistaken, I would rather make an attempt and be corrected than remain silent.

Marco Feichtinger wrote: "venti/mirrorarenas is undocumented, and I couldn't find any detailed discussion on this topic. I am curious about how it works, how to set it up for automatic mirroring of arenas, and why it is preferred over fs(3) mirror?"

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[ori]

Quoth Marco Feichtinger <marco@germteig.com>:
> venti/mirrorarenas is undocumented, and I couldn't find any topic here,
> which goes into more detail.
> 
> So I am curious how does it work, 
> how does one to set it up, so the arenas get mirrored automatically,
> and why do you use it instead of fs(3) mirror?
> 
> -marco
> 

reading the source: it's a way to do an incremental
copy of venti data; it's not an alternative to fs(3);
it's an alternative to dd(1).

https://www.cespedes.org/blog/90/how-to-mirror-one-venti-to-another
https://marc.info/?l=9fans&m=147750604517288&w=2

seems to be the sum total of extant documentation.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[moody]

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I realize now I didn't answer with respect to the comparison to mirroring from fs(3). These fundamentally solve different problem, fs(3) mirror is for online disk mirroring. As in you have two drives in your machine and you want your machine to use both of them for redundant storage(think RAID). Where as venti/mirrorareans is designed for offline backups that are not always online. You boot up some slow big drive (or other media) and write your arenas to weekly/monthly/whatever. There really isn't much to compare between the two because the function they fit is entirely different from each other. It would be more interesting I think to compare the usefulness of this program as compared to venti/copy, since from a 50 ft view they seem to solve the same problem. I presume the reasoning here is mirrorarenas avoids the overhead of (potentially) running two instances of venti on the same machine to facilitate the duplication of data at a higher level.

I don't see the lack of response here as an issue,  this original question hasn't even been up for 24 hours yet. I think its a bit silly to say that this is an unreasonable amount of time to wait for a proper answer. If someone wants to participate and wants to challenge their understanding by suggesting to others how they think things work, I see no problem. However I also do not think its unreasonable for people to be upset at objectively false (and easily verifiable) information.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[sirjofri]

31.07.2024 06:29:05 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> No. The issue lies in the lack of responses to Marco's question and the minimal constructive feedback when someone does respond. I value the efforts of those who attempt to provide answers. If I am mistaken, I would rather make an attempt and be corrected than remain silent.

Even if:

"Hi everyone, I gave this a try and asked a LLM about that question. Here's my prompt and the response. Any feedback?"

"Hi. I tried to understand as much as possible by reading source code and other articles online. The following text is written with the help of a LLM, but I tried to make sure it is as correct as it can be based on my learnings."

Not:

Ctrl+C mail, Ctrl+V chatgpt, Ctrl+C chatgpt, Ctrl+V mail.

See the difference?

If we wanted pure chatgpt messages, someone would have built a bridge by now. But we value peers, not parrots.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Fifteen replies without a verifiable answer are excessive.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[hiro]

nobody here has this goal and this is not a peer review process, go
away you waste of time.

On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 3:02 AM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:
>
> Peer review involves presenting a claim, research, or work to others who are experts in the same field. These peers critically evaluate the work, test its assertions, and provide feedback. The goal is to ensure the validity, reliability, and originality of the work before it is published or widely accepted. This process is commonly used in academic and scientific research to maintain high standards of quality and credibility.
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[sirjofri]

31.07.2024 11:09:40 hiro <23hiro@gmail.com>:

> nobody here has this goal and this is not a peer review process, go
> away you waste of time.

Without comment:

Kalona Ayeliski (ᎪᎳᏅ ᎠᏰᎵᏍᎩ "Raven Mockers") are spirits who prey on the souls of the dying and torment their victims until they die, after which they eat the hearts of their victims. Kalona Ayeliski are invisible, except to a medicine man, and the only way to protect a potential victim is to have a medicine man who knows how to drive Kalona Ayeliski off, since they are scared of him.

(Wikipedia: cherokee spiritual beliefs)

Not that this says anything about that person, but it seems to be an interesting rabbit hole.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Steve Simon]

gosh, a lot of vitriol on this subject.

i suggest contacting Geoff Collier off-list, who i suspect wrote the code.

I am pretty sure he is the author the set of efficient blueray backup and restore scripts for venti to support the Dutch team under Sape.

The venti mirroring scripts probably date from the same time.

-Steve


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Thank you, Steve. Based on the feedback, this is the best advice we can give Marco.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Charles Forsyth]

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yes. i use it to mirror my venti arenas on other ssds, partitioned the same
as the original , with a short script run by the cron on the venti server.
mirror:
#!/bin/rc
venti/mirrorarenas -v /dev/sdE0/arenas0 /dev/sdE1/arenas0
venti/mirrorarenas -v /dev/sdE0/arenas0 /dev/sdE2/arenas0
date

On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 03:08, <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:

> If you look at the top of the file you'll see:
>
> /*
>  * Mirror one arena partition onto another.
>  * Be careful to copy only new data.
>  */
>
>
> Now if you combine this with some of the information from venti(8):
>
>           The data log is logically split into sections called arenas,
>           typically sized for easy offline backup (e.g., 500MB).  A
>           data log may comprise many disks, each storing one or more
>           arenas.  Such disks are called arena partitions. Arena par-
>           titions are filled in the order given in the configuration.
>
>
> My best guess is that this is an incremental backup tool, where you give
> it a source and destination arena partition and the code looks at both,
> figures out the deltas, then copies over only what is needed. The venti
> code is a bit inscrutable and I'm no venti guy so take this with a grain of
> salt.
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tca0eb0fbb2404e31-M193f031acea0a531d106af6c>
>

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Stanley Lieber]

On July 31, 2024 5:39:48 AM EDT, sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:
>31.07.2024 11:09:40 hiro <23hiro@gmail.com>:
>
>> nobody here has this goal and this is not a peer review process, go
>> away you waste of time.
> 
> Without comment:
> 
> Kalona Ayeliski (ᎪᎳᏅ ᎠᏰᎵᏍᎩ "Raven Mockers") are spirits who prey on the souls of the dying and torment their victims until they die, after which they eat the hearts of their victims. Kalona Ayeliski are invisible, except to a medicine man, and the only way to protect a potential victim is to have a medicine man who knows how to drive Kalona Ayeliski off, since they are scared of him.
> 
> (Wikipedia: cherokee spiritual beliefs)
> 
> Not that this says anything about that person, but it seems to be an interesting rabbit hole.
> 
> sirjofri

in the satanic bible, a similar construct in human guise is referred to as a psychic vampire.

related: 

https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/aquino-michael-1946

sl

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

Legally, you don't own that.

It's already been ruled that, in the US at least, AI spam is not
copyrightable.


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

Every single part of this is wrong.

- You generally don't want the configuration in a venti.conf file. You
want it inside of one of the venti partitions, which have space reserved
for it. The venti/conf tool is good for this.
- venti configuration files have no `root` command.
- they also have no `log` command.
- They also _REQUIRE_ an index!
- and, generally, an address on which to listen :P
- arenas are not files in /srv, they're partitions, typically e.g.
/dev/sdE0/arena, or /dev/sdN0/arena, or some such, on a SATA or NVMe
device, or flash drive, or SD card, or... you know, some kind of real
storage.
- venti has no internal capacity for mirroring between arenas.
- venti/fmt is not a command. In fact, the need to manually format each
partition of a venti system manually is documented as a bug in the venti
manual page! While venti/fmtindex does point to the config file, it
cannot be run until after the index sections have been manually
formatted!
- `venti` is not the command to run venti; `venti/venti` is.
- `for block in` is not legal rc syntax; that script is not legitimate.
- You can't just... what? No. Just, no. You cannot manually copy a block
from one arena to another by treating arenas as folders, that's
incoherent. Partitions are FILES. The OS / disk drivers have no
conception of what data venti is storing within!

This is very blatantly generated by a spambot. That behavior is not
acceptable within this community. Please refrain from doing this again.

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

This is... strictly better, I suppose. New list of mistakes:

- The usage of venti/conf is incorrect. Frankly, I don't know why you'd
even be showing instructions for configuring a venti when the question
was about mirroring capabilities for an existing venti, as I understand
it? It's both irrelevant and incorrect.
- That configuration remains invalid, even if you happen to have both a
SATA and NVMe drive. I gave those two drive paths as examples, if you
just copy them you're _going_ to lose data lol.
        - The `index` command actually NAMES the index. This is, quite
honestly, incredible stupid on venti's part, but you actually need a set
of `isect /path/to/indexsection` directives, then an `index [name]`
directive which creates an index across those sections.
- Also, the directive listing an arenas partition is `arenas`, _not_
`arena`, because venti does not use the partition as _an_ arena, but as
a large file in which to store _many_ arena_s_.
- Also also, the _design_ of the venti system is just bad. It makes no
sense to put the index on a SATA drive when you have NVMe available in
basically any scenario.
- Assuming an NVMe drive, as in the MNT Reform, which has _already been
partitioned manually_, a reasonable minimal config can look like this,
off the top of my head:

index main
isect /dev/sdN0/index
arenas /dev/sdN0/arenas

but this is not helpful, because giving you that config without telling
you how to partition or format the partitions is as good as sabotage,
since you're _going_ to make a mistake and lose literally all of your
data. 

- The formatting commands would create an illegal venti, that would fail
to start up.

> venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdN0/arena
> venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdE0/arena

You cannot give both arenas partitions the "arena" name, that makes no
sense.

- The mirroring script is incorrect. It's mirroring the data from the
first SATA drive on to two other SATA drives, _but is not_ mirroring the
data from the NVMe drive at all!

- Morever, the comparison to fs(3) remains entirely incoherent, and
demonstrates a total lack of understanding of both venti and fs(3).

- There is no sufficient distinction made between "redundancy" and
"backup/restoration purposes," such that you're recommending two
distinct modes of backup with no proper argument made for when each one
should be used.

- Worse, wrarena and rdarena are used incorrectly. They don't do what
the spambot thinks they do.

- You're attempting to assert copyright over spambot-generated
"content," which is legally not copyrightable. You do not have any legal
rights over that content, and thus cannot reserve any.

- You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of venti. You have
demonstrated a lack of understanding of Plan 9. Worst, by continuing to
post AI spam after being informed of community standards, you've
demonstrated a lack of respect for this community.

You're wasting other people's time, because other people aren't just
using spam generators to reply to yours. Please stop immediately.

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

Are you honestly claiming that you ran the scripts in your post on that
hardware?


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Thank you for your suggestions. Reviewed the man pages again. Let's see if this is an improvement. Kept the writing concise. Mistakes are my own. Sharing here for transparency.


Setting Up and Managing Venti with Automatic Mirroring in Plan 9

Plan 9 from Bell Labs offers Venti, a sophisticated archival storage system. This essay outlines the setup and management of Venti with automatic mirroring and compares it to the `fs(3)` mirror.

Introduction to Venti

Venti is a content-addressable storage system that uses cryptographic hashes (typically SHA-1) to uniquely identify data blocks. This deduplication ensures that identical blocks are stored only once. Venti’s write-once design makes it ideal for archival storage, preserving data integrity.

Configuring Venti

Configuring Venti involves setting up storage arenas, index partitions, and the server’s listening address. The `venti/conf` tool embeds the configuration within a partition.

1. Initial Configuration

Use the `venti/conf` tool to define arenas, the index, and the network address:

   venti/conf
   arena /dev/sdE0/arena
   arena /dev/sdN0/arena
   index /dev/sdE0/index
   addr tcp!*!17034

2. Formatting Indexes and Arenas

Format the index and arenas to establish the necessary data structures:

   venti/fmtisect -b 8k index /dev/sdE0/index
   venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdN0/arena
   venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdE0/arena

Initialize the index with `venti/fmtindex`:

   venti/fmtindex /path/to/venti.conf

3. Starting the Venti Server

Launch the Venti server:

   venti/venti -c /path/to/venti.conf

Setting Up Automatic Mirroring

Ensure data redundancy by setting up automatic mirroring of Venti arenas on additional SSDs. Use a script executed periodically by `cron`.

1. Mirroring Script

Create a script to mirror the arenas. The `venti/mirrorarenas` command facilitates this:

   #!/bin/rc

   venti/mirrorarenas -v /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE1/arena
   venti/mirrorarenas -v /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE2/arena
  
Save the script as `mirror`.

2. Scheduling the Mirroring Script

Schedule the script with `cron` to ensure regular mirroring:

   cron '*/5 * * * * /path/to/mirror'

Backup and Restoration

For backup and restoration of Venti arenas, use `venti/rdarena` and `venti/wrarena`.

1. Backing Up Arenas

Use `venti/rdarena` to extract an arena to external media:

   venti/rdarena /dev/sdC0/arena arena.0 > /path/to/external/media
  
2. Restoring Arenas

Use `venti/wrarena` to restore blocks from an arena file to a Venti server:

   venti/wrarena -h venti2 /path/to/external/media


Advantages of Using Venti Over `fs(3)` Mirror

Venti offers distinct advantages over the `fs(3)` mirror:

1. Content-Addressable Storage: Cryptographic hashes ensure efficient storage through deduplication.

2. Immutability: Venti’s write-once nature maintains data integrity over time.

3. Data Integrity: Reliance on cryptographic hashes guarantees strong data integrity.

4. Scalability: Venti can scale by adding more storage arenas.

5. Efficient Backup Solutions: Deduplication and immutability make Venti ideal for reliable backups.

Conclusion

Configuring and managing Venti involves setting up multiple storage arenas and indexes, formatting them, and running the server. For redundancy, use a script to automate arena mirroring, scheduled with `cron`. For backup and restoration, `venti/rdarena` and `venti/wrarena` are essential. Venti surpasses `fs(3)` mirror in deduplication, data integrity, and scalability, making it the superior choice for archival and backup storage in Plan 9. Follow these steps to deploy a reliable and efficient Venti storage system.

Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Dave Eckhardt]

> Thank you for your suggestions.  Reviewed the man pages again.
> Let's see if this is an improvement.  Kept the writing concise.
> Mistakes are my own.  Sharing here for transparency.

I believe that part of the "social contract" of this mailing list
is that people who are submitting code have run the code first.

Have you run your most-recent submission?  If so, on which version
of which flavor of Plan 9?  On which hardware?

Dave Eckhardt

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Hardware: IBM ThinkCentre S50 (2003)
OS: Plan 9 from Bell Labs (4th Ed)
Currently experiencing intermittent hardware issues; sometimes it does not post. 

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Dave Eckhardt]

> Are you honestly claiming that you ran the scripts in your
> post on that hardware?

https://xkcd.com/1838/

Dave Eckhardt

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[B. Atticus Grobe]

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On Wed Jul 31, 2024 at 7:20 PM CDT, Noam Preil wrote:
...
> - You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of venti. You have
> demonstrated a lack of understanding of Plan 9. Worst, by continuing to
> post AI spam after being informed of community standards, you've
> demonstrated a lack of respect for this community.
>
> You're wasting other people's time, because other people aren't just
> using spam generators to reply to yours. Please stop immediately.
>
> - Noam Preil

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

We all who despise the unmitigated use of these spambots are wasting our breath
Noam. You can't stop the uneducated, the imbeciles, and incompetents from being
lured into the magical domain of infinite "knowledge" OpenAI and their ilk
peddle to the consumtariat. Many have never learned _how_ to learn in the first
place and turn to "AI" because it's all they're capable of; separating the chaff
from the wheat obviously requires actual knowledge which defeats the purpose of
the all-knowing magic box.

Don't stop fighting the good fight, but perhaps choose the battles where you can
hit them upside the head with a properly sized Clue-by-4.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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I'm working to find an answer for Marco despite hardware issues. I hope to replace my mainboard when funds allow. Trying is better than not trying. If Marco gets a fair answer, we're done. Until then, let's get him closer. Attacking someone for trying to help is surprising. I thought 9fans was a place to both receive and give help. If others attended to Marco as much as they do me, perhaps he'd have an answer. The point is to help Marco if possible. If you can't help, that's fine. If you're willing to help, please do.

If Marco has already written to Geoff or Sape and received an answer, it would be good to post it here and share the knowledge.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 10:34:29PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> I'm working to find an answer for Marco despite hardware issues. I hope to replace my mainboard when funds allow. Trying is better than not trying. If Marco gets a fair answer, we're done. Until then, let's get him closer. Attacking someone for trying to help is surprising. I thought 9fans was a place to both receive and give help. If others attended to Marco as much as they do me, perhaps he'd have an answer. The point is to help Marco if possible. If you can't help, that's fine. If you're willing to help, please do.
> 
> If Marco has already written to Geoff or Sape and received an answer, it would be good to post it here and share the knowledge.

You forgot to attach a copyright notice to your entitled whining.

Hope this receives and gives help,
khm

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Kurt, whining implies a sound. If you hear sounds, you're hallucinating like an LLM. ;-)

Thank you. It’s good practice to post the copyright.

Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Would anyone like to comment on Marco's question?

If few people use Venti, that's okay; I understand the reluctance to help.

Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[sirjofri]

Kalona,

maybe this whole thread wouldn't have exploded if you weren't trying to force AI stuff into it?

Maybe people who don't know anything about a problem shouldn't answer at all, or at least not with unfitting answers? (Instead, stay here and learn, or contribute more details to the issue if you're affected, to help others understand it.)

Maybe people don't want to answer in this thread because it exploded like that? (The original topic is basically lost)

Maybe people are old enough to ask for help a second time if the first time didn't help? (Which btw can still happen. Waiting for a response for a day or two is normal.)

I, at least, learned my lesson. Even in this mailing list, we're not safe from AI crap and AI overuse/misuse. I understand your attitude and want to believe that you're trying to help, but understanding the issue and understanding _when_ you can even help is very important.

Thank you, Noam, for digging deep into the venti black hole and trying to understand as much as possible.

sirjofri

P.S.: I don't know enough about venti, so I won't even try to solve the issue.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[hiro]

wrong

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 6:53 AM <kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us> wrote:
>
> Kurt, whining implies a sound. If you hear sounds, you're hallucinating like an LLM. ;-)
>
> Thank you. It’s good practice to post the copyright.
>
> Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[hiro]

save yourself, run.

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 3:59 AM Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>
> This is... strictly better, I suppose. New list of mistakes:
>
> - The usage of venti/conf is incorrect. Frankly, I don't know why you'd
> even be showing instructions for configuring a venti when the question
> was about mirroring capabilities for an existing venti, as I understand
> it? It's both irrelevant and incorrect.
> - That configuration remains invalid, even if you happen to have both a
> SATA and NVMe drive. I gave those two drive paths as examples, if you
> just copy them you're _going_ to lose data lol.
>         - The `index` command actually NAMES the index. This is, quite
> honestly, incredible stupid on venti's part, but you actually need a set
> of `isect /path/to/indexsection` directives, then an `index [name]`
> directive which creates an index across those sections.
> - Also, the directive listing an arenas partition is `arenas`, _not_
> `arena`, because venti does not use the partition as _an_ arena, but as
> a large file in which to store _many_ arena_s_.
> - Also also, the _design_ of the venti system is just bad. It makes no
> sense to put the index on a SATA drive when you have NVMe available in
> basically any scenario.
> - Assuming an NVMe drive, as in the MNT Reform, which has _already been
> partitioned manually_, a reasonable minimal config can look like this,
> off the top of my head:
>
> index main
> isect /dev/sdN0/index
> arenas /dev/sdN0/arenas
>
> but this is not helpful, because giving you that config without telling
> you how to partition or format the partitions is as good as sabotage,
> since you're _going_ to make a mistake and lose literally all of your
> data.
>
> - The formatting commands would create an illegal venti, that would fail
> to start up.
>
> > venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdN0/arena
> > venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdE0/arena
> 
> You cannot give both arenas partitions the "arena" name, that makes no
> sense.
> 
> - The mirroring script is incorrect. It's mirroring the data from the
> first SATA drive on to two other SATA drives, _but is not_ mirroring the
> data from the NVMe drive at all!
> 
> - Morever, the comparison to fs(3) remains entirely incoherent, and
> demonstrates a total lack of understanding of both venti and fs(3).
> 
> - There is no sufficient distinction made between "redundancy" and
> "backup/restoration purposes," such that you're recommending two
> distinct modes of backup with no proper argument made for when each one
> should be used.
> 
> - Worse, wrarena and rdarena are used incorrectly. They don't do what
> the spambot thinks they do.
> 
> - You're attempting to assert copyright over spambot-generated
> "content," which is legally not copyrightable. You do not have any legal
> rights over that content, and thus cannot reserve any.
> 
> - You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of venti. You have
> demonstrated a lack of understanding of Plan 9. Worst, by continuing to
> post AI spam after being informed of community standards, you've
> demonstrated a lack of respect for this community.
> 
> You're wasting other people's time, because other people aren't just
> using spam generators to reply to yours. Please stop immediately.
> 
> - Noam Preil
> 

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[plan6]

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I don't know venti. I went to 9front for the pretty icons in faces.
kalona uses fastmail.
Vic uses fastmail.
So I updated kalona's icon to match Vic's.
https://tinyurl.com/kalona001
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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No, but I'll keep pushing on. Using notes from an old presentation, I value completeness. Retirement gives me the time to try again. 

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Thank you for your constructive comments and motivation. I reviewed venti(8), venti/fmtarenas(8), and venti/mirrorarenas(8) again. 

I reviewed Marco's post once again, 
  "venti/mirrorarenas is undocumented, and I couldn't find any topic here,
  which goes into more detail.

  So I am curious how does it work, 
  how does one to set it up, so the arenas get mirrored automatically,
  and why do you use it instead of fs(3) mirror?"

This might be closer to a correct answer for Marco. All mistakes are mine.


Ensuring Data Redundancy in Plan 9: Using `venti/mirrorarenas`

Introduction

Plan 9 from Bell Labs is renowned for its innovative approach to resource management, featuring Venti as a crucial component for content-addressable storage. Ensuring data redundancy within Venti is critical for preventing data loss. This essay provides a concise guide to configuring `venti/mirrorarenas` for automatic mirroring of Venti arenas and compares it to `fs(3)` mirroring.

Setting Up `venti/mirrorarenas`

`venti/mirrorarenas` is designed to mirror Venti arenas, providing redundancy by copying data to multiple storage locations.

1. Prepare Configuration:
Create a configuration file (`/sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf`):
  
   index main
   isect /dev/sdN0/index
   arenas /dev/sdN0/arenas /dev/sdM0/arenas-mirror

2. Format the Arenas:
Use `venti/fmtarenas` to format the primary and mirrored arenas:
  
   venti/fmtarenas -a 512M /dev/sdN0/arenas
   venti/fmtarenas -a 512M /dev/sdM0/arenas-mirror

3. Initialize and Start Venti:
Start the Venti server with the configuration:
  
   venti -c /sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf

4. Run `mirrorarenas`:
Use `venti/mirrorarenas` to initiate the mirroring process:
  
   venti/mirrorarenas -c /sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf

Advantages of `venti/mirrorarenas`

- Fault Tolerance: By mirroring data across multiple arenas, it ensures data availability in case of hardware failures.
- Automation: Once set up, it continuously mirrors data with minimal administrative intervention.

Comparison with `fs(3)` Mirroring

- Scope:
  - `venti/mirrorarenas` is tailored for Venti archives, ensuring efficient handling of content-addressable storage.
  - `fs(3)` mirror is a general-purpose mirroring tool for entire filesystems.

- Configuration Complexity:
  - `venti/mirrorarenas` requires specific configuration for Venti arenas.
  - `fs(3)` mirror is easier to configure but less specialized.

- Performance:
  - `venti/mirrorarenas` is optimized for Venti’s unique storage needs.
  - `fs(3)` mirror might introduce more overhead due to its broader functionality.

Conclusion

Choosing between `venti/mirrorarenas` and `fs(3)` mirror depends on the specific needs for data redundancy. `venti/mirrorarenas` offers a specialized and optimized solution for Venti archives, ensuring real-time mirroring and fault tolerance. In contrast, `fs(3)` mirror provides a broader mirroring capability for entire filesystems. Employing the appropriate tool ensures data resilience in Plan 9 systems, safeguarding against hardware failures.


Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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No one is obligated to help. I'm asking those who care enough to assist. 9fans is a place to ask and receive help. If it takes a while to get a reasonable answer, we must adapt to the lack of available, helpful experts.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

If someone is hungry and you try to help them by knocking them
unconscious, no, I will not respect your attempt to help.

Good intentions, backed up by incompetence and a lack of respect for
those you seek to help, do not justify harmful actions.


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

Other than the fact where that isn't copyrightable?

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

I... this is still completely wrong. I'm not going to bother correcting
you a third time; if you want that, I'm going to have to start charging.
My PayPal should be the same as the email I'm sending this from; feel
free to drop $20 in there if you want me to review your, um, "work".

For what it's worth, I saw this thread and initially intended to provide
a meaningful answer; I had no energy left to spend on email after
dealing with the spam.

I'll try to write up an actually helpful answer today.

Anyone who has not decided that using up water in areas where fresh
water is rationed, as well as burning through multiple kilowatt-hours of
electricity, is a suitable replacement to just executing festoon(1), is
welcome to remind me later if I forget to <3

Lesson learned: next time, I'm only responding to humans, not bots.
At this rate, I'm going to toss fastmail in my upas inbox rejection
script.

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Ori Bernstein]

I don't think the best adaptation is drowning out anything helpful with an array of unhelpful inexperts.

If someone wants chatgpt responses, they don't need you as a middleman.

On August 1, 2024 7:36:17 AM EDT, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> No one is obligated to help. I'm asking those who care enough to assist. 9fans is a place to ask and receive help. If it takes a while to get a reasonable answer, we must adapt to the lack of available, helpful experts.

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[wb.kloke]

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On Tuesday, 30 July 2024, at 7:29 AM, Marco Feichtinger wrote:
> So I am curious how does it work, 
how does one to set it up, so the arenas get mirrored automatically,
and why do you use it instead of fs(3) mirror?

Adding to this ill-fated thread. Mirroring venti arenas was just a stillborn idea. 

The basic idea of venti arenas was to  copy them to ROM devices as soon as the arena would not change anymore., ie. it is sealed. After this event there is no need to mirror anything. For sealed arenas , making copies available for recovering  from disastrous disk failures is a trivial exercise.

Of course, if you want to recover instantaniously from a failure in a non-sealed   not-backuped arena, there might be a desire for such a mirror. Nobody cares about such events, alas.

The main problem for the instantaneous availability of the backup is not the arena mirror, but the index file. I doubt that mirrorarenas was ever designed to be used for this purpose.
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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Steve Simon]

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Re: [9fans] Re: venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Here is another attempt at an answer based on found information. Added alternatives for additional context.


Ensuring Data Redundancy in Plan 9: Using `venti/mirrorarenas`

Introduction

Plan 9 from Bell Labs uses innovative methods for distributed computing. Venti, a key component, offers content-addressable storage. Ensuring redundancy for Venti archives is vital. This guide explains how to set up `venti/mirrorarenas` to mirror arenas automatically and why it is preferred over `fs(3)` mirror.

Setting Up `venti/mirrorarenas` for Automatic Mirroring

1. Configure the Second Venti Server:
Set up a second Venti server as described in the `venti(8)` manual page. If both servers run on the same machine, ensure they use different port numbers.

2. Create a Configuration File:
Create a configuration file (`/sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf`) specifying the source and destination arenas:
  
   index main
   isect /dev/sdN0/index
   arenas /dev/sdN0/arenas /dev/sdM0/arenas-mirror

3. Format the Index and Arenas:
Format the primary and mirrored arenas:
  
   venti/fmtisect isect0 /dev/sdN0/index
   venti/fmtarenas -a 512M /dev/sdN0/arenas
   venti/fmtarenas -a 512M /dev/sdM0/arenas-mirror

4. Start the Venti Server:
   Initialize and start the Venti server with the configuration file:
 
   venti -c /sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf
 
5. Run `venti/mirrorarenas`:
   Use `venti/mirrorarenas` to start the mirroring process:
  
   venti/mirrorarenas -c /sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf

Advantages of `venti/mirrorarenas`

- Speed: `venti/mirrorarenas` is fast and includes checks to ensure the arena geometries match.
- Fault Tolerance: Ensures data availability by mirroring data in real-time across multiple storage devices.
- Automation: Once set up, it continuously mirrors data with minimal administrative intervention.

Alternative Methods for Mirroring Venti Servers

1. Using `venti-copy`:
   - Purpose: Copies blocks from one Venti server to another.
   - Usage:
    
     cat scores.txt | while read score ; do venti-copy $venti1 $venti2 $score ; done
    
2. Using `venti-rdarena` and `venti-wrarena`:**
   - Purpose: Reads and writes arenas one by one.
   - Usage:
    
     venti-rdarena /dev/sdN0/arenas | venti-wrarena /dev/sdM0/arenas-mirror
    
3. Manual Copy Using `dd`:
   - Purpose: Manually copies arenas using `dd`.
   - Usage:
    
     for i in $(seq $start $end); do
       echo "Copying arena $i..."
       skip=$(( 97 + $i * 65536 ))
       dd if="$orig" bs=8192 skip=$skip count=65536 seek=$skip of="$dest"
     done
    

Building Arenas Post-Mirroring

After copying or mirroring arenas, the destination server must recognize the new data structure:

  venti-buildarenas -c /sys/lib/venti/mirrorconf


Comparison with `fs(3)` Mirroring

- Scope:
  - `venti/mirrorarenas` is specialized for Venti archives, handling content-addressable storage efficiently.
  - `fs(3)` mirror is a general-purpose tool for mirroring entire filesystems.
- Configuration Complexity:
  - `venti/mirrorarenas` requires specific Venti configuration, ensuring precise data handling.
  - `fs(3)` mirror is simpler but not optimized for Venti’s unique storage model.
- Performance:
  - `venti/mirrorarenas` is optimized for Venti’s needs, providing faster and more reliable redundancy.
  - `fs(3)` mirror might introduce more overhead due to its broader functionality.

Conclusion

Using `venti/mirrorarenas` for Venti-specific redundancy offers a tailored, efficient solution. It automates the mirroring process, ensuring continuous data protection. Compared to `fs(3)` mirror, it provides a more specialized approach, optimized for Venti’s content-addressable storage. This choice ensures data resilience in Plan 9 systems, safeguarding against hardware failures. For broader filesystem redundancy, `fs(3)` mirror remains a versatile option, but for Venti archives, `venti/mirrorarenas` is the preferred tool.

Reference

For more details, see [How to mirror one Venti to another](https://www.cespedes.org/blog/tag=69).

Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.
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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Marco Feichtinger]

Thank you very much guys, there are some helpful answers,
even though this thread got a little messy. (didn't see that coming)

Charles Forsyth, since you are using venti/mirrorarenas,
if you don't mind, I would like to know what your venti.conf looks like.

-marco


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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Would creating standard operating procedures for newcomers be beneficial? Having procedures detailing how to administer Venti mirroring on a Plan 9 system in a wiki seems reasonable. Here is a formatted example of an SOP. I am sure something better could be created.

 
Standard Operating Procedure for Setting Up and Managing Venti with Automatic Mirroring in Plan 9

Purpose
This document provides a step-by-step procedure for setting up and managing Venti, an archival storage system in Plan 9, with automatic mirroring.

Scope
This SOP covers the initial configuration, formatting of indexes and arenas, starting the Venti server, setting up automatic mirroring using `fs(3)` and `venti/mirrorarenas`, and performing backup and restoration.

Responsibilities
- System Administrator: Responsible for setting up, configuring, and maintaining the Venti system.
- Backup Administrator: Ensures regular backups and mirroring of Venti data.

Procedure

1. Initial Configuration of Venti

1.1 Prepare Configuration
- Use the `venti/conf` tool to define the configuration.

    venti/conf
    arena /dev/sdE0/arena
    arena /dev/sdN0/arena
    index /dev/sdE0/index
    addr tcp!*!17034
   

2. Formatting Indexes and Arenas

2.1 Format Index and Arenas
- Format the index and arenas to establish the necessary data structures.

    venti/fmtisect -b 8k index /dev/sdE0/index
    venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdN0/arena
    venti/fmtarenas -a 512M arena /dev/sdE0/arena

2.2 Initialize the Index
- Initialize the index using `venti/fmtindex`.

    venti/fmtindex /path/to/venti.conf

3. Starting the Venti Server

3.1 Start the Server
- Launch the Venti server with the following command:

    venti/venti -c /path/to/venti.conf

4. Setting Up Automatic Mirroring

4.1 Mirroring with `fs(3)`
- Use `fs(3)` to mirror a block device, configuring it to sync the partitions containing the arenas and index.

    fs(3) -m /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE1/arena
    fs(3) -m /dev/sdE0/index /dev/sdE1/index

4.2 Automate Mirroring with `cron`
- Automate the mirroring process using a cron job.

    cron '*/5 * * * * fs(3) -m /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE1/arena'

4.3 Using `venti/mirrorarenas`
- Create a script to mirror the arenas using `venti/mirrorarenas`.

    #!/bin/rc
    venti/mirrorarenas -v /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE1/arena
    venti/mirrorarenas -v /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE2/arena

- Save the script as `mirror` and schedule it with `cron` for regular execution.

    cron '*/5 * * * * /path/to/mirror'

5. Backup and Restoration

5.1 Backing Up Arenas
- Use `venti/rdarena` to extract an arena to external media.

    venti/rdarena /dev/sdC0/arena arena.0 > /path/to/external/media

5.2 Restoring Arenas
- Use `venti/wrarena` to restore blocks from an arena file to a Venti server.

    venti/wrarena -h venti2 /path/to/external/media

Notes

- Data Integrity: Venti’s write-once nature ensures data integrity.
- Deduplication: Venti’s use of cryptographic hashes ensures efficient storage through deduplication.
- Scalability: Venti can scale by adding more storage arenas.

Documentation

- Configuration File: Keep a record of the Venti configuration file.
- Cron Jobs: Document and review cron job schedules regularly.

Review and Update

- Annual Review: This SOP should be reviewed annually to ensure it remains current and effective.
- Incident Review: Any incidents should trigger an immediate review and possible update of this SOP.


Copyright 2024 by Kalona Ayeliski. All rights reserved.


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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 02:10:43PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> 
>     cron '*/5 * * * * fs(3) -m /dev/sdE0/arena /dev/sdE1/arena'
> 

When you generate bullshit with an LLM and then post it without reading
it, nobody thinks the LLM is stupid.  We think *you* are stupid.

khm

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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khm, you can think whatever you like. If true, then all you can do is let it be.

My point is accurate information should be easy to find and read, like in a wiki. Mailing lists are for discussions, not for searching answers. It’s ideal when discussions lead to action items that improve the overall state.

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 02:27:14PM -0400, kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us wrote:
> khm, you can think whatever you like. If true, then all you can do is let it be.

I don't need your permission to think whatever I like, and there are
tons of other things I can do, like informing you that you're a useless
source of misinformation.

> 
> My point is accurate information should be easy to find and read, like in a wiki. Mailing lists are for discussions, not for searching answers. It’s ideal when discussions lead to action items that improve the overall state.
> 

Here's an action item:  go start a wiki and put your LLM content there.
That way, people who don't want their computers to work can easily find
it, you can feel like you've contributed to anything, and the mailing
list will have less spam from doddering fools.

khm

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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khm, if you need validation as an expert, that's on you.

Naom, 9fans isn't a single source of truth, but rather is a place for holding discussions. 

I see this as a documentation problem. If people can't find information easily, they ask. Without credible documentation, the cycle never ends. We have endless discussions on 9fans on how to do things. Improving documentation is a step forward. Is asking to improve documentation unreasonable? Clearly you don't want me to write it. 

I am attempting to be helpful.  Even for someone as stupid as I am, I see Plan 9 lacks clear documentation. 
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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[wb.kloke]

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Noam is right in most of his text.

But I have to add that the following sentence should be taken with some grain of salt.
 
> If the index is on a separate drive, though - e.g. index on SSD, data on HDDs - mirrorarenas can be used to keep the arenas in sync between multiple (sets of) HDDs, so that if one fails, venti can use the working drive while continuing to use the index on the SSD.

You are better off putting the arenas on SSD, not the index, if you don't want to stress your SSD. Of course, index on SSD looks good at 1st sight for performance, but the  buckets have to be rewritten and reordered at each addition .

If you want the performance gain, and have enough main memory , you should better try my mventi (which uses standard arenas and no index file). -> see other thread
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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[sirjofri]

03.08.2024 21:06:54 kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> Naom, 9fans isn't a single source of truth, but rather is a place for holding discussions. 

Code doesn't lie. So code is the source of truth. Anything you say about how things work which doesn't match reality, is therefore just wrong or a lie.

> I see this as a documentation problem. If people can't find information easily, they ask. Without credible documentation, the cycle never ends. We have endless discussions on 9fans on how to do things. Improving documentation is a step forward. Is asking to improve documentation unreasonable? Clearly you don't want me to write it.

Asking for documentation is alright, but consider reading what "you wrote" (even when using a LLM) before posting it is strongly advised.

There's a saying in Germany (and probably other languages, too) which roughly translates to: We could have thought of you as wise if you didn't open your mouth.

> I am attempting to be helpful.  Even for someone as stupid as I am, I see Plan 9 lacks clear documentation. 

There are other ways to help. Including accepting that you don't know something about a topic and investing actual work to change that, plus investing the time to actually collaborate and discuss actual information with people instead of posting nonsense. I see nothing of that in your AI posts. I just see hands with 23 fingers and faces with 5 eyes and two noses, and an artist who asks what could be improved with that.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[noam]

Quoth Marco Feichtinger <marco@germteig.com>:
> venti/mirrorarenas is undocumented, and I couldn't find any topic here,
> which goes into more detail.
> 
> So I am curious how does it work, 
> how does one to set it up, so the arenas get mirrored automatically,
> and why do you use it instead of fs(3) mirror?

fs(3) can be used to mirror a _block device_. In principle, you can use this to mirror a full venti - or the arenas! - but you can also use it to mirror anything else, it doesn't care about the format of the data.

venti/mirrorarenas should work to _update_ a mirror of an arenas partition: it mirrors _just_ the data log of the venti, and provides incremental backup. if you want it to be automatic, that's just a cron job; there's nothing fancy for it in venti itself.

An important note is that, since it _only_ mirrors the arenas themselves, the destination is not a usable venti - for that, you'd need to build the index. In principle, if you keep the arena _separate_ from the indexes - i.e. on a different drive - this should allow for simply swapping which copy of the arenas is used _without updating the index_.

There's also wrarena+rdarena. That needs to be used between _two instances of venti_ - i.e. the destination needs a full venti server, not just a disk - but has the advantage of allowing the data sets to not be _competely_ identical, and since it goes through the server, it ensures the index is up to date on the receiving end.

There's a lot of different options on how to keep a venti system replicated / backed up, depending on the goal. For just backups, on one machine, where the entire venti is on one drive, fs(3) is probably the easiest approach - it can be configured to mirror venti across multiple drives, and the bootup scripts can automatically fall back to the mirror if the first drive fails.

If the index is on a separate drive, though - e.g. index on SSD, data on HDDs - mirrorarenas can be used to keep the arenas in sync between multiple (sets of) HDDs, so that if one fails, venti can use the working drive while continuing to use the index on the SSD.

Alternatively, for backing up _across the network_, scripts based on wrarena+rdarena are probably the way to go. This allows for mirroring between multiple separate ventis, even if the configuraiton of the arenas and indices are completely different.

What to use and how to set it up depends, as always, on what you're trying to do :)

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[kalona.ayeliski]

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Code serves as a better single source of truth than 9fans. If you rely on 9fans for accuracy, it's understandable to be upset when the quality of posts is lacking. Accurate documentation is crucial when 9fans' quality declines.

If everyone shirks responsibility for documentation, the problem will persist. If I post something incorrect, I hope someone will point out my mistake. While I've received some help, it wasn't clear. I haven't asked for further clarification because I know I would receive more banter for asking simple follow-up questions. Requesting documentation might be a better way to find the truth than guessing and posting my assumptions.

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> Would creating standard operating procedures for newcomers be beneficial? Having procedures detailing how to administer Venti mirroring on a Plan 9 system in a wiki seems reasonable. Here is a formatted example of an SOP. I am sure something better could be created.

I understand you're trying to be helpful, but giving people incorrect
information _actively hurts_ people.

Please, please stop.

- Noam Preil



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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> khm, you can think whatever you like. If true, then all you can do is let it be.
> 
> My point is accurate information should be easy to find and read

if you care about accurate information, the most helpful thing you can do
is stop using LLMs.

Sincerely, please, please stop. Every single part of what you have posted
has been wrong, and when corrected, you respond by posting even more
misinformation.

Lying to people is not helpful.

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Marco Feichtinger]

Thanks Noam for that summery; it's of great help.

-marco


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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[wb.kloke]

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On Sunday, 4 August 2024, at 2:57 PM, noam wrote:
> i'm unsure which thread you're talking about; can you link me to
more info on mventi? I've been working on a better venti implementation
as well [1], and it'd be nice to have another reference :)
The other thread is "yet another try to fixup venti".

I am aware of your work, and even tried to send you mail on May7th.

You can find my take on mventi in http://pkeus.de/~wb/mventi

In short: I replaced the index file with a memory based implementation, which (for my ca. 80GB arenas) loads in less than 2 minutes from the arena directories, and may work in less than 1GB main memory. In my case the server is a WD MyCloud Ex2 Ultra. Most of  venti code (plan9port flavor) is not touched.
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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Noam Preil]

That's familiar enough that TBH I probably saw your message and forgot
to respond. I was going through Some Shit at the time.

I'm cleaning up my inbox today; I'll respond if I see it and reach out
if I don't :)

- Noam Preil

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:

> I see this as a documentation problem. If people can't find information easily, they ask. Without credible documentation, the cycle never ends. We have endless discussions on 9fans on how to do things. Improving documentation is a step forward. Is asking to improve documentation unreasonable? Clearly you don't want me to write it. 

It's a reasonable desire, and one I agree with!

But LLM output is _not_ documentation, and is _not_ improvement.

The people who need the documentation the most will not know enough
to realize just how horribly inaccurate all of the misinformation you
have provided is.

> I am attempting to be helpful.  Even for someone as stupid as I am, I see Plan 9 lacks clear documentation. 

This is a legitimate problem.

Generating incorrect fake documentation will only make this worse.



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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[noam]

Quoth kalona.ayeliski@fastmail.us:
> While I've received some help, it wasn't clear. I haven't asked for further clarification because I know I would receive more banter for asking simple follow-up questions. 

If you ask questions, I'll happily answer them.

Banter you've received was specifically because you WERE NOT asking questions.



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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[noam]

Quoth wb.kloke@gmail.com:
> Noam is right in most of his text.

Well of course, I'm me, what do you expect? :D

> But I have to add that the following sentence should be taken with some grain of salt.

Everything should be taken with at least one grain of salt, preferably
more; salt is essential to taste!

> > If the index is on a separate drive, though - e.g. index on SSD, data on HDDs - mirrorarenas can be used to keep the arenas in sync between multiple (sets of) HDDs, so that if one fails, venti can use the working drive while continuing to use the index on the SSD.
> 
> You are better off putting the arenas on SSD, not the index, if you don't want to stress your SSD. Of course, index on SSD looks good at 1st sight for performance, but the  buckets have to be rewritten and reordered at each addition .

... venti's entire index sync logic is horrifying, to be quite honest. 

> 
> If you want the performance gain, and have enough main memory , you should better try my mventi (which uses standard arenas and no index file). -> see other thread

i'm unsure which thread you're talking about; can you link me to
more info on mventi? I've been working on a better venti implementation
as well [1], and it'd be nice to have another reference :)

[1] https://git.sr.ht/~pixelherodev/neoventi


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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen]

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I just stumbled across this thread, so I will repost something I wrote in
2017 about mirroring of venti. I had the need to create the union of two
venti servers, so I wrote a client that copies individual venti blocks,
given the scores. This you can do without worrying about what is on the
target venti, since the deduplication takes care of any conflicts. So, in
case it might be useful for someone, here it comes:

Based on copy.c and readlist.c, I have cobbled together a venti client to
copy a list of venti blocks from one venti server to another. I am thinking
of using it to incrementally replicate the contents on one site site to
another. It could even be used for two-way replication, since the CAS and
deduplicating properties of venti ensures that you will never have write
conflicts at a block level.

I have tried it out by feeding it with the output from printarenas, and it
seems to work reasonably well. Does anyone have any good ideas about how to
incrementally extract the set of scores that has been added to a venti
server? You could extract the whole set of scores and do a diff with an old
set of course, but that's rather inefficient.

Ole-Hj.


#include <u.h>
#include <libc.h>
#include <thread.h>
#include <venti.h>
#include <bio.h>

enum
{
    // XXX What to do here?
    VtMaxLumpSize = 65535,
};

char *srchost;
char *dsthost;
Biobuf b;
VtConn *zsrc;
VtConn *zdst;
uchar *buf;
void run(Biobuf*);
int nn;

void
usage(void)
{
    fprint(2, "usage: copylist srchost dsthost list\n");
    threadexitsall("usage");
}

int
parsescore(uchar *score, char *buf, int n)
{
    int i, c;

    memset(score, 0, VtScoreSize);

    if(n != VtScoreSize*2){
        werrstr("score wrong length %d", n);
        return -1;
    }
    for(i=0; i<VtScoreSize*2; i++) {
        if(buf[i] >= '0' && buf[i] <= '9')
            c = buf[i] - '0';
        else if(buf[i] >= 'a' && buf[i] <= 'f')
            c = buf[i] - 'a' + 10;
        else if(buf[i] >= 'A' && buf[i] <= 'F')
            c = buf[i] - 'A' + 10;
        else {
            c = buf[i];
            werrstr("bad score char %d '%c'", c, c);
            return -1;
        }

        if((i & 1) == 0)
            c <<= 4;

        score[i>>1] |= c;
    }
    return 0;
}

void
threadmain(int argc, char *argv[])
{
    int fd, i;

    ARGBEGIN{
    default:
        usage();
        break;
    }ARGEND

    if(argc < 2)
        usage();

    fmtinstall('V', vtscorefmt);
    buf = vtmallocz(VtMaxLumpSize);

    srchost = argv[0];
    zsrc = vtdial(srchost);
    if(zsrc == nil)
        sysfatal("could not dial src server: %r");
    if(vtconnect(zsrc) < 0)
        sysfatal("vtconnect src: %r");

    dsthost = argv[1];
    zdst = vtdial(dsthost);
    if(zdst == nil)
        sysfatal("could not dial dst server: %r");
    if(vtconnect(zdst) < 0)
        sysfatal("vtconnect dst: %r");

    if(argc == 2){
        Binit(&b, 0, OREAD);
        run(&b);
    }else{
        for(i=2; i<argc; i++){
            if((fd = open(argv[i], OREAD)) < 0)
                sysfatal("open %s: %r", argv[i]);
            Binit(&b, fd, OREAD);
            run(&b);
        }
    }
    threadexitsall(nil);
}

void
run(Biobuf *b)
{
    char *p, *f[10];
    int nf;
    uchar score[20];
    int type, n;

    while((p = Brdline(b, '\n')) != nil){
        p[Blinelen(b)-1] = 0;
        nf = tokenize(p, f, nelem(f));
        if(nf != 2)
            sysfatal("syntax error in work list");
        if(parsescore(score, f[0], strlen(f[0])) < 0)
            sysfatal("bad score %s in work list", f[0]);
        type = atoi(f[1]);
        n = vtread(zsrc, score, type, buf, VtMaxLumpSize);
        if(n < 0)
            sysfatal("could not read %s %s: %r", f[0], f[1]);
        n = vtwrite(zdst, score, type, buf, n);
        if(n < 0)
            sysfatal("could not write %s %s: %r", f[0], f[1]);
        if(++nn%1000 == 0)
            print("%d...", nn);
    }
}



On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 7:08 PM Marco Feichtinger <marco@germteig.com> wrote:

> Thank you very much guys, there are some helpful answers,
> even though this thread got a little messy. (didn't see that coming)
> 
> Charles Forsyth, since you are using venti/mirrorarenas,
> if you don't mind, I would like to know what your venti.conf looks like.
> 
> -marco
> 

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Re: [9fans] venti/mirrorarenas usage

[wb.kloke]

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On Sunday, 27 October 2024, at 10:57 AM, Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen wrote:
> I
 have tried it out by feeding it with the output from printarenas, and 
it seems to work reasonably well. Does anyone have any good ideas about 
how to incrementally extract the set of scores that has been added to a 
venti server?

The easiest way to support this, seems to me to add a log of  all root scores to the venti server. Correct use of venti should ensure that each lump referenced in a block of scores  is present on the server. Each lump should be rooted in a root score, when all writers to the server are either fossil or vac or vbackup.
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