PC-clone hardware

PC-clone hardware

[jmk]

Following is a note about the PC-clone hardware we use.
It requires tbl|troff -ms.
It doesn't include hardware we haven't integrated yet.

--jim
---------------------------cut-here----------------------------------------
.FP lucidasans
.SH
APPENDIX - What We Use - Last Updated 9-April-95
.SP 3
.LP
We assemble our own PC-clones whenever possible for 2 reasons:
.IP \(bu
we know what's inside;
.IP \(bu
it's good therapy.
.LP
We can't do this for laptops and
these have typically been the most troublesome.
There are a few desktop systems around which were bought assembled
and they mostly seem to work OK when we try them.
.LP
Some items work on the current development system and are not
included in the Plan 9 distribution.
.LP
The opinions and misinformation in here are all mine.
.SH
Motherboards
.LP
We like baby-AT format motherboards.
There is a commitment to EISA for some
home-built boards and commercial fibre interfaces for FDDI and
ATM.
Until recently we've used the AMI Enterprise IV:
.IP \(bu
7 EISA slots, 2 of them with VLB;
.IP \(bu
SiS chipset;
.IP \(bu
on-board I/O (SMCxxxxxx);
.IP \(bu
PS/2 mouse port;
.IP \(bu
processors up to DX/2-66 (will
.I not
take a DX/4-100 overdrive,
should take a P24T);
.IP \(bu
x 72-pin SIMM sockets, no pairing necessary.
.LP
All in all,
a fine little board but showing its age.
.LP
Our commitment to EISA restricts the choices we have
for P54C motherboards to those using the Neptune chipset,
and they are typically all dual-processor motherboards.
We have two,
an ASUS PCI/E-P54NP4 and a
Gigabyte GA586-ID (although it was sold to us under another
name).
There's little to choose between the two,
both have
6 72-pin SIMM sockets (paired),
256Kb or 512Kb secondary cache and
no on-board I/O.
It comes down to what you intend to plug in:
.KS
.TS
center;
c c c
l c c.
	ASUS PCI/E-P54NP4	Gigabyte GA586-ID
_
EISA slots	4	5
PCI slots	4	3
PS/2 port	Y	N
.TE
.KE
.LP
The ASUS has a separate 3.3v power connector,
and if your power supply can't provide that,
you lose a PCI slot to a voltage regulator card.
The Gigabyte has more flexible PCI interrupts,
allowing PCI multi-function cards such as the GAxxx-xx
multi-I/O card which doesn't require an [E]ISA-slot paddle-card
(that in itself doesn't buy you much -
if you have a PCI multi-I/O card in the shared PCI slot
you can't really use the shared EISA slot for anything
other than a paddle-card anyway).
.LP
Yes, one of these has 2 P54CT processors installed and no,
the port is not complete.
.SH
VGA cards
.LP
Here's a list of what's in /lib/vgadb with VGA chip type:
.KS
.TS
center;
c l l
l l l.
	chip	comments
STB PowerGraph X-24	S3 86C801	ISA
Orchid Fahrenheit 1280	S3 86C805	VLB
#9GXE Level-1[126]	S3 86C928	VLB
#9GXE64	S3 Vision864	PCI, VLB and on motherboard
Cardinal VGA765	Tseng Labs ET4000	ISA
Hercules Dynamite Power	Tseng Labs ET4000/W32p	PCI
Diamond SpeedStar Pro	CL-GD542x	ISA and on motherboard
Orchid Kelvin 64	CL-GD543x	PCI
Globalyst 250 (laptop)	C&T65540	on motherboard
ATI ULtra Pro	MACH32	VLB
AT&T Globalyst 600	MACH64	on motherboard
.TE
.KE
.LP
Support for the ATI MACH32 and MACH64 is minimal,
only the dumb VGA mode is used restricting the maximum
resolution to 1024x768x8.
.LP
Most of the Enterprise IV motherboards are have a #9GXE Level-11 VLB,
there are also 2 with Level-16's.
.LP
Subjectively,
the Tseng Labs ET4000/W32p gives the best performance under Plan 9,
its only drawbacks being the lack of a hardware cursor in 2x8bit mode
and a maximum pixel-clock of 135MHz when used with a suitable RAMDAC.
.SH
Monitors
.LP
We use the IDEK 8617 and Viewsonic 17 17" monitors,
and the Nokia 445X 21".
.SH
IDE/ATA drives
.LP
We've used Seagate 2.5" drives on most of the Enterprise IV systems,
mainly because once the system is booted we just spin it down;
we could do that with a SCSI drive but the Enterprise IV has an on-board
IDE controller so we just use that. They are slow, however.
.LP
We have one Conner CFA850 850Mb EIDE drive hooked up to a CMD604B
controller and it has worked nicely so far.
There is also a Micropolis 2117 1.7Gb drive.
It would not coexist happily with the Conner,
it always wanted to be master;
the Conner worked fine as a slave.
.SH
SCSI Controllers
.LP
We use Buslogic controllers, PCI, EISA and ISA,
and the Adaptec 1542 series.
Those can all be handled in one driver (although that's not the
one in the distribution).
There is also an Ultrastor 14F ISA and a 34F VLB controller
around which work fine; those controllers may not be
easy to get anymore.
.SH
SCSI Discs
.LP
We have a completely mixed bag,
all the way from systems with a single 200Mb drive on an Adaptec 1542
to one with 4 9Gb Seagate Elite 9's on a Buslogic 747S EISA controller.
Most of our drives come from Seagate although there are odd drives around
from other manufacturers such as Maxstor and Conner.
.LP
The only incompatibility has been the dual-ported Seagate fast+wide+differential
Elite 9
and a Buslogic 757D fast+wide+differential EISA controller.
The single-ported version of the drive works fine; the dual-ported drive has
no on-board termination and the conclusion was there is some incompatibility
in the way the active termination is done.
.SH
SCSI CD-ROM
.LP
We have mostly used the 2x Toshiba 3401,
although there is a NEC 74 and 3Xi around which work fine too.
The Toshiba lets you read the digital audio over the bus.
However,
according to our audio-grabbing expert the best drive we have
is a 4x Plextor 4-Plex; it can read the digital audio too and positions
more accurately than the Toshiba.
.SH
Non-SCSI CD-ROM
.LP
We've tried the Mitsumi, Panasonic and Matsushita drives which can be
attached to a Sound Blaster audio card.
They're slow.
.SH
Audio
.LP
Sound Blaster 16 or compatible (
.I not
the SBPro).
.SH
Mouse
.LP
You just can't get a decent mouse these days.
Logitech make OK 3-button mice,
but their catalogue keeps changing.
PS/2 or serial,
it doesn't matter, we handle both.
.SH
Keyboard
.LP
You just can't get a decent keyboard these days.
We use the Lexmark Quiet-Touch.
It has 84 keys,
an optional numeric keypad (which we've never bought)
and either PS/2 (6-pin) or AT (5-pin) connector.
The feel is a bit dull,
but it measures 13"x6" which makes up for a lot.
.SH
Ethernet Adapters
.LP
The 3Com 3C509 is a fine card,
it's fast,
autoconfigures,
the only resources it uses are 16 I/O ports
and it's pretty cheap.
Don't bother with the EISA version (3C579),
performance is marginally better but it costs a lot more.
The PCMCIA version (3C589) also works.
.LP
Other cards we have are some of the SMC (WD) series of adapters,
up to the Elite (but not the Elite Ultra),
some NE2000 compatibles (including an NE4100 PCMCIA card)
and one Eagle NE3210 EISA card.
They all work but have nothing to recommend them over the 3C509.
.LP
We failed miserably to get the old 3Com 3C503 to work,
the NIC kept resetting as soon as we put any load on it.
.SH
Modems
.LP
Modems are not something we use much and have no real opinions.
Our Plan 9 FAX service uses a MultiTech MT1432.
The AT&T Keep-In-Touch PCMCIA modem also works.
.SH
PCMCIA
.LP
There's some support for PCMCIA controllers using the Intel 82365SL PCIC controller
or compatibles (e.g. Cirrus Logic PD6710/PD6720).
Both controllers in laptops and on ISA cards have been used.

PC-clone hardware

[Borja]

> 
> borjam@we.lc.ehu.es (Borja Marcos) wrote:
> 
> > I think we should have a sort of recommended hardware list.
> 
> Take a look at the "PC-clone hardware used at Bell Labs"
> URL http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/plan9/clone.html
> 
> > I can volunteer to maintain it. It would be written from the
> > experiences of the members of this list with different kinds of
> > hardware.
> 
> A list such as that is already being compiled.
> In early August, presotto@plan9.att.com wrote:
> 
> > I'm trying to make a list of PC models that Plan 9 works on.
> > Could you mail me the flavor PC you are using, i.e., box
> > or motherboard manufacturer and model number?  Thanks much.

	OK, then I will send my experiences to him. :-)


	Borja.


-- 
*******************************************************************
Borja Marcos               | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq.     | Others:    borjamar@mx.sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)  |            100015.3502@compuserve.com
SPAIN                      | CIS:       100015,3502
******************************************************************

PC-clone hardware

[Steve]

borjam@we.lc.ehu.es (Borja Marcos) wrote:

> I think we should have a sort of recommended hardware list.

Take a look at the "PC-clone hardware used at Bell Labs"
URL http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/plan9/clone.html

> I can volunteer to maintain it. It would be written from the
> experiences of the members of this list with different kinds of
> hardware.

A list such as that is already being compiled.
In early August, presotto@plan9.att.com wrote:

> I'm trying to make a list of PC models that Plan 9 works on.
> Could you mail me the flavor PC you are using, i.e., box
> or motherboard manufacturer and model number?  Thanks much.

PC-clone hardware

[Borja]

> 
> "BM" == Borja Marcos <borjam@we.lc.ehu.es> writes:
> 
> 
>    I agree with this.
> 
>    Also, on the theory that if a PC supports Linux it is a reasonably
> good bet it will support plan9, I might suggest lurking in places like
> comp.os.linux.hardware? (I can think of a couple of PC vendors who
> sell what they claim to be Linux compatible systems but I have never
> used one so I can't recommend any.)

	Yes, a good test is to run OS/2, a version of Unix and Linux.
If the three systems work, the motherboard may work.

	A VERY IMPORTANT suggestion: test your motherboard with
_all the cards you want to use_. I have seen motherboards work
fine until you add a SCSI host adapter and/or an ethernet card.

	I think we should have a sort of recommended hardware list.
I can volunteer to maintain it. It would be written from the
experiences of the members of this list with different kinds of
hardware.

	Borja.


-- 
*******************************************************************
Borja Marcos               | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq.     | Others:    borjamar@mx.sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)  |            100015.3502@compuserve.com
SPAIN                      | CIS:       100015,3502
******************************************************************

PC-clone hardware

[jmk]

This is a little out of my experience, but if I had to buy a 486 motherboard
I'd look for one that would take a DX4-100 and even one of the new Cyrix M1sc
chips (i.e. handles 3.3V CPUs). Plus I'd opt for a PCI+ISA board with I/O on
the motherboard (I think only AIR makes a 486 MB with PCI+EISA). SIS or Intel
chipset should be OK.

Our only other experience with 486 motherboards has been Micronics in some old
Gateways. There have been troubles there with the Phoenix BIOS and accessing the
BIOS ROM areas from Plan 9, but that's probably because we don't make any attempt
to work out the 8/16-bit BIOS stuff.

The OS/2 and Linux newsgroups probably have some useful information.

------ original message follows ------

>From cse.psu.edu!9fans-outgoing-owner Tue Sep  5 00:31:11 EDT 1995
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From:	Steve Kotsopoulos <steve@ecf.toronto.edu>
To:	9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: PC-clone hardware
Message-Id: <95Sep5.001425edt.927@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu>
Date:	Tue, 5 Sep 1995 00:14:24 -0400
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In "What We Use - Last Updated 1-Aug-95", it says:
> Until recently we've used the AMI Enterprise IV:

What have you been using recently?

I'm thinking of getting a 486DX2-66, with 256K cache, but
I haven't been able to find any AMI motherboards around here yet.

One store I visited told me "the brand of motherboard is usually
stated as the brand of CPU on it", which doesn't jive with 
the above document since it lists an SiS chipset on the AMI board.

What's more important to look for, the motherboard or cpu manufacturer?

Intel and AMD seem to be popular in the local stores here,
which of those two would people recommend?

The variety in PC hardware scares me - sorry if these are basic questions.

PC-clone hardware

[Geoff]

cpu and fpu compatibility are worth paying attention to.  i used to have
a cyrix 486dx, which worked fine except that proof crashed when the cyrix
fpu generated an incorrect (and incompatible) result.  a genuine intel
486dx2 cured the problem.

PC-clone hardware

[Bill]

"BM" == Borja Marcos <borjam@we.lc.ehu.es> writes:

  >> 
  >> In "What We Use - Last Updated 1-Aug-95", it says:
  >> > Until recently we've used the AMI Enterprise IV:
  >> 
  >> What have you been using recently?
  >> 
  >> I'm thinking of getting a 486DX2-66, with 256K cache, but
  >> I haven't been able to find any AMI motherboards around here yet.
  >> 
  >> One store I visited told me "the brand of motherboard is usually
  >> stated as the brand of CPU on it", which doesn't jive with 
  >> the above document since it lists an SiS chipset on the AMI board.
  >> 
  >> What's more important to look for, the motherboard or cpu manufacturer?
  >> 
  >> Intel and AMD seem to be popular in the local stores here,
  >> which of those two would people recommend?
  >> 
  >> The variety in PC hardware scares me - sorry if these are basic questions.
  >> 

  BM> I think the CPU manufacturer is not important. As far as I know
  BM> they are compatible. The problem arises, however, with the chipset.
  BM> For example, I wouldn't recommend ALI chipsets. I have had real
  BM> problems with this chipset. I think the OPTI chipset is a good one.
  BM> Anyway, there are more important factors such as manufacturing
  BM> quality. I have found that most of the motherboards currently sold
  BM> are a piece of junk valid only for running MSDOS and Windows,
  BM> incapable of running for a period of time without a reboot.

  BM> The only answer is to test the motherboard you are going to use.
  BM> Another problem is that most dealers change regularly their motherboards.


  BM> Borja.
  >> 

   I agree with this.

   Also, on the theory that if a PC supports Linux it is a reasonably
good bet it will support plan9, I might suggest lurking in places like
comp.os.linux.hardware? (I can think of a couple of PC vendors who
sell what they claim to be Linux compatible systems but I have never
used one so I can't recommend any.)

   Bill

PC-clone hardware

[Borja]

> 
> In "What We Use - Last Updated 1-Aug-95", it says:
> > Until recently we've used the AMI Enterprise IV:
> 
> What have you been using recently?
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a 486DX2-66, with 256K cache, but
> I haven't been able to find any AMI motherboards around here yet.
> 
> One store I visited told me "the brand of motherboard is usually
> stated as the brand of CPU on it", which doesn't jive with 
> the above document since it lists an SiS chipset on the AMI board.
> 
> What's more important to look for, the motherboard or cpu manufacturer?
> 
> Intel and AMD seem to be popular in the local stores here,
> which of those two would people recommend?
> 
> The variety in PC hardware scares me - sorry if these are basic questions.
> 

	I think the CPU manufacturer is not important. As far as I know
they are compatible. The problem arises, however, with the chipset.
For example, I wouldn't recommend ALI chipsets. I have had real
problems with this chipset. I think the OPTI chipset is a good one.
Anyway, there are more important factors such as manufacturing
quality. I have found that most of the motherboards currently sold
are a piece of junk valid only for running MSDOS and Windows,
incapable of running for a period of time without a reboot.

	The only answer is to test the motherboard you are going to use.
Another problem is that most dealers change regularly their motherboards.


	Borja.
> 


-- 
*******************************************************************
Borja Marcos               | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq.     | Others:    borjamar@mx.sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)  |            100015.3502@compuserve.com
SPAIN                      | CIS:       100015,3502
******************************************************************

PC-clone hardware

[Steve]

In "What We Use - Last Updated 1-Aug-95", it says:
> Until recently we've used the AMI Enterprise IV:

What have you been using recently?

I'm thinking of getting a 486DX2-66, with 256K cache, but
I haven't been able to find any AMI motherboards around here yet.

One store I visited told me "the brand of motherboard is usually
stated as the brand of CPU on it", which doesn't jive with 
the above document since it lists an SiS chipset on the AMI board.

What's more important to look for, the motherboard or cpu manufacturer?

Intel and AMD seem to be popular in the local stores here,
which of those two would people recommend?

The variety in PC hardware scares me - sorry if these are basic questions.

PC-clone hardware

[Steve]

> an update to my note about our hardware follows

Thanks. I've put it on http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/plan9/

PC-clone hardware

[Steve]

a82@blue.lrw.uni-bremen.de (Henner Gratz) wrote:

> Now, after Plan9 is available for everyone, I plan to order my CD-ROM.
> I want to install it on a 486/Pentium PC. Because I don't own such a beast at
> the moment, I will have to buy one. And here the problems start. On what
> main-boards, graphic-cards etc. Plan9 will run. The WWW-pages on plan9.att.com
> aren't very detailed. I have also read the lists spread in the 9fans mailing
> list, but they are from 1994 for the old distributions. 
> 
> So here's my question: Is there a list covering the new distribution?

In Apr/95, jmk@plan9.att.com posted a note about the PC-clone hardware they
use at the Labs. I have converted it to html (with the troff2html program on
forsyth's ftp site) and put it on http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/plan9/

Hopefully this should be useful to others.

Once lots of people receive their CDROMs, Please send any updates for the
draft FAQ on that page to me.