`over'

`over'

[Bill]

"f" == forsyth  <forsyth@plan9.cs.york.ac.uk> writes:

  >>> it is only with the benefit of hindsight and considerable effort
  >>> (forgetting such things as "hop over", "skip over", "jump over", "pass
  >>> over", etc.) that I can discern in the phrase "Plan 9 will install
  >>> over the second through last partitions" The idea that Plan 9 will
  >>> *DESTROY* my second through the last partitions -- so when it goes on
  >>> to say

  f> oh god.

  f> really, i have a lot of sympathy for you esp. owing to the
problem with disk/prep; i'm very sorry about any loss, and so on; i
can tell you what plan 9 has, can, and might do to your discs; BUT i
really cannot agree that the Errata notes about installation are not
quite clear in the common dialects of English about the effect of
using the old disk/prep on a DOS disc with several DOS partitions.

  f> no, i'm not having any of this.

  f> let's see. (Compact Edition of the full Oxford English
Dictionary; none of this CDROM stuff.)

  f> i believe `over' is intended in the following sense:

  f> II. In sense `on', `upon'

  f> 5. On the upper or outer surface of; upon: sometimes implying the
notion of supported or resting upon, sometimes (now more frequently)
that of covering the surface.
  
  f> 6. To a position on the surface or top of, or so as to cover;
upon (with verbs of motion).

  f> 7. a. (Position) on all parts of the surface of; everywhere on;
here and there upon.
  
  f> Often strengthened by `all', now esp. `all over'.

  f> b. (Motion) from place to place on the surface of; all about;
throughout.  Often `all over'.

  f> c. Through every part of, all through.  (Sometimes including the
notion of examination or consideration: cf. 4.)


   [and so on in a similar vein -- the OED is always fun to read]

   
   First off, I am not the person whose hard drive partitions were
installed (all?) over by the plan9 demo.

   But as I said, while it is possible to construe the phrase "install
over the second through last partitions" in a manner parallel to the
sense in which most speakers of English will I am sure immediately
understand the phrase "paint over the second through last letters", I
seriously doubt that possibility is the one which will occur *first*
in the minds of most speakers of English, and that IMO makes it much
more likely than it needs to be in this case that a key point will be
missed even if every first-time plan9 installer reads `errata.html'.

   I think you have shown the OED supports my position.

   The point is that revisions which may spell the difference between
catastrophe and success do not belong in an erratum but should be
incorporated into a new edition of the text to which they apply.


    Bill

  

`over'

[Berry]

>>>dhog@plan9.cs.su.oz.au said:
 > You make it seem like everything is riding on the interpretation of the
 > one phrase "install over", but the whole paragraph warns the user in
 > 3 different ways that there is a problem if they have more than one
 > partition.  I would consider it much more likely that our friend who
 > lost his linux partition didn't read the errata list at all, rather than read
 > it and misinterpretted it in the way that you suggest.

Furthermore, I (and I suspect a lot of us) refuse to have any sympathy 
for anyone who does a major installation of a new operating system without 
doing a backup first.

I can't count how many times I've read that you should backup often, and 
always before doing anything major.  Get a clue guys: *THIS IS WHY*.
Unexpected problems have a way of biting you when you least expect it.

Remember: backups will get you through times of no disks better than disks 
will get you through times of no backups.

Apologies to the 99% of the members of this mailing list who 
already *know* this stuff.

  --berry

Berry Kercheval :: Xerox Palo Alto Research Center

`over'

[dhog]

>   But as I said, while it is possible to construe the phrase "install
>over the second through last partitions" in a manner parallel to the
>sense in which most speakers of English will I am sure immediately
>understand the phrase "paint over the second through last letters", I
>seriously doubt that possibility is the one which will occur *first*
>in the minds of most speakers of English, and that IMO makes it much
>more likely than it needs to be in this case that a key point will be
>missed even if every first-time plan9 installer reads `errata.html'.

I'm sorry, but if you write sentences like that, then you are in no position
to argue.  :-)  If the erratum had contained that many dependent clauses
then the "most speakers of English" might have been forgiven for
misunderstanding it!  As it is, I believe anyone misunderstanding the phrase
in the way that you suggest is not competent to switch their computer on,
let alone install an operating system.  People who do not understand the
meaning of phrases such as "install over" will probably not understand
other phrases such as "DOS partition", "operating system" or "hard disk".

You make it seem like everything is riding on the interpretation of the
one phrase "install over", but the whole paragraph warns the user in
3 different ways that there is a problem if they have more than one
partition.  I would consider it much more likely that our friend who
lost his linux partition didn't read the errata list at all, rather than read
it and misinterpretted it in the way that you suggest.

Sorry about all the flamage, I haven't been the same since I started
administering MS Windows (spit!) for a living.  :-(

`over'

[forsyth]

>>it is only with the benefit of hindsight and considerable effort
>>(forgetting such things as "hop over", "skip over", "jump over", "pass
>>over", etc.) that I can discern in the phrase "Plan 9 will install
>>over the second through last partitions" the idea that Plan 9 will
>>*DESTROY* my second through the last partitions -- so when it goes on
>>to say

oh god.

really, i have a lot of sympathy for you esp. owing to the problem with disk/prep;
i'm very sorry about any loss, and so on; i can tell you what plan 9 has, can, and might do to your
discs; BUT i really cannot agree that the Errata notes about installation
are not quite clear in the common dialects of English about the effect of using the old disk/prep
on a DOS disc with several DOS partitions.

no, i'm not having any of this.
let's see. (Compact Edition of the full Oxford English Dictionary; none of this CDROM stuff.)

i believe `over' is intended in the following sense:


   II. In sense `on', `upon'

	5. On the upper or outer surface of; upon: sometimes implying the notion of supported
	or resting upon, sometimes (now more frequently) that of covering the surface.
	6. To a position on the surface or top of, or so as to cover; upon (with verbs of motion).
	7. a. (Position) on all parts of the surface of; everywhere on; here and there upon.
	Often strengthened by `all', now esp. `all over'.

	b. (Motion) from place to place on the surface of; all about; throughout.
	Often `all over'.

	c. Through every part of, all through.  (Sometimes including the notion of
	examination or consideration: cf. 4.)

	...

	13. From side to side of a surface or space; across, to the other side of
	(a sea, river, boundary, etc. [disc partition!?]); from end to end of (a line), along.

and to my mind might even include:

	8. Above in authority, rule or power; with sbs., as `king', `lord over';
	`jurisdiction', `rule', `triumph', `victory over'; adjs. `victorious over';
	vbs. `to reign', `rule', `triumph', `appoint' or `set' any one `over'.
	9. Above or beyond in degree or quality, or action; in preference to; more than.

but no doubt you would have it thus:

	14. fig. In transgression or violation of; in contravention of, contrary to.  (Obs.)

It really is quite clear, and a proper use of the word `over': `install over' as in
`paper over'.  Your `skip over' and `jump over' examples really prove the point: the skip or jump
*crosses the surface*, *`from side to side'* of the thing jumped or skipped over,
that is precisely why `over' is used in that phrase.  that one ends up on the other side of the object is
a property of `skip' or `jump', not of `over'.  that property is not shared by `cover', `paper',
`sweat', `place', ... or `install'.  what happens when you `slide over' something?
what happens when you `cover over the cracks' (hello, Gates!)?

i mean, really.