Why?

Why?

[Andrew]

[Curt Sampson]
> 
> In article <426c7u$m35@world.celsiustech.se>,
> Bengt Kleberg <bkl@celsiustech.SE> wrote:
> 
> >Plan9 is is a distributed OS, to be used in heterogenous hardware
> >environments. The standalone PC version is free, for the home hacker.
> >The real version is $350 and supposedly used by several people. 10
> >people makes it $35 each, 100 people makes it $3.5 each, none of which
> >is expensive.
> 
> Is the licence one gets for $350 a site licence? Does this mean I
> can have it up and running on as many machines at my corporation as I
> like, without any further fee?
> 
> [ See http://plan9.att.com/plan9/shrink.html for the actual license. It
> contains the following phrase "This SOFTWARE may be used by you or by
> an organization of which you are a member or employee solely for
> research or educational purposes." -- mod ]

How strictly is "organisation" defined? If a group of friends form an 
informal Plan 9 Hackers' Club, can they legally install Plan 9 on their
machines from the same CD provided that they don't make any commercial use
of it? Is it one of those gray areas, like copying 10-year-old Commodore
games or taping TV programs?

-- 
/d/def/s/scale/u/dup/f/forall{load def}{loop}stopped pop/r{u 1 lt{-1 0 moveto 1
1 lineto stroke}{[[(ha_a0\211)(db\\h\(~)(eVhdOj)(jd_dbd)(dh\\bT\200)(f_ab^\211)
(c]ffe\201)(`@h`x\200)(cZhd#h)(hb^d0v)(`Lh`8t)(eVhd\223~)(gj^a\230j)(h_ab\210a)
(gd^c\211\205)]{[exch{96 sub}f]}f]{gsave 1 64 div u s concat u 1 sub r grestore
}f}ifelse pop}d 240 u s 1.25 1 translate 4 r showpage% - acb@cs.monash.edu.au -

Why?

[dhog]

>> >Of course companies can use Plan 9 internally on as many
>> >computers as they like for $350 total.
>> 
>> Has Microsoft ordered their copy yet?
>
>Sure it should be "except Microsoft"? :-)

I think that that should be "except Microsoft and Novell"  ;-)

Why?

[mkc]

Borja Marcos writes:

> the license [for Amoeba] costs sixtY thousand dollars. (yes, it's 60
> K$).

> 	Is Plan 9 expensive?

I just read, in a Swedish computer magazine, that a commercial source
license for Plan 9 would go at $200,000. I don't know if that is
official or just a rumour in the computer business.

Mikael Cardell <mkc@bull.se>
Systems Engineer
Telco Solutions, System Integration Services
Bull Northern Europe

Why?

[Steve_Kilbane]

> In message <95Sep7.120007edt.45669@colossus.cse.psu.edu>,	presotto@plan9.
> att.com writes:
> >Of course companies can use Plan 9 internally on as many
> >computers as they like for $350 total.
> 
> Has Microsoft ordered their copy yet?

Sure it should be "except Microsoft"? :-)

steve

Why?

[Gary]

In message <95Sep7.120007edt.45669@colossus.cse.psu.edu>,	presotto@plan9.
att.com writes:
>Of course companies can use Plan 9 internally on as many
>computers as they like for $350 total.

Has Microsoft ordered their copy yet?

Why?

[Borja]

> 
> Borja Marcos writes:
> 
> > the license [for Amoeba] costs sixtY thousand dollars. (yes, it's 60
> > K$).
> 
> > 	Is Plan 9 expensive?
> 
> I just read, in a Swedish computer magazine, that a commercial source
> license for Plan 9 would go at $200,000. I don't know if that is
> official or just a rumour in the computer business.

	Well, the license for Amoeba is commercial. However, I don't need
a commercial license. Just wanted a distributed OS to do some independent
research. Well, if I'm not a university I must get a 
commercial license for Amoeba. With Plan 9 I can get an affordable
education license. 

	Borja.


-- 
*******************************************************************
Borja Marcos               | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq.     | Others:    borjamar@mx.sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)  |            100015.3502@compuserve.com
SPAIN                      | CIS:       100015,3502
******************************************************************

Why?

[presotto]

>> the license [for Amoeba] costs sixtY thousand dollars. (yes, it's 60
>> K$).
>
>> 	Is Plan 9 expensive?
>
>I just read, in a Swedish computer magazine, that a commercial source
>license for Plan 9 would go at $200,000. I don't know if that is
>official or just a rumour in the computer business.

Heh, heh.  Sounds like the blind pencil seller 
on the street corner selling pencils for $1,000,000 apiece.
``You won't sell many pencils at that price'' says the
passerby.  ``I only have to sell one'' says he.

There is no fixed price for a commercial license (i.e.
a license which lets the buyer resell products or services
based on the released software).  We will wheel and
deal with anyone that wants to consider it.  We've floated a
few prices but nothing is tacked down since it does
depend on the what is being resold, support expected,
etc.  Ee might settle for a little up front and a piece
of the action or a lot up front and nothing else.

Contact the AT&T Software Solutions Group to haggle:
1-800-462-8146 or 1-415-943-4076.

Of course companies can use Plan 9 internally on as many
computers as they like for $350 total.

Why?

[Borja]

	A little note about the pricing of Plan 9. (I think we are
really lucky with the price AT&T has put to it)

	Some months ago I tried to license Amoeba. Amoeba is a
distributed system designed at a university in Netherlands.
The license is free *ONLY* to universities. For any entity
that is not formally a university, the license costs
sixtY thousand dollars. (yes, it's 60 K$).

	Is Plan 9 expensive?

	Borja.
-- 
*******************************************************************
Borja Marcos               | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq.     | Others:    borjamar@mx.sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)  |            100015.3502@compuserve.com
SPAIN                      | CIS:       100015,3502
******************************************************************

Why?

[Paul]

Andrew C. Bulhak wrote
> [Steve_Kilbane]
> > > Which UNIX tools do you use that are Plan-9-inspired?
> > 
> > The sam editor. The es and rc shells. The 8 1/2 -like X window

Es is only 2nd order plan9-inspired;  it's rc- & Scheme-inspired.

> Is es the functional pattern-matching shell?

Well, it's a functional language, but there's no pattern matching.

> If so, where can I find it?

For more details, see

	http://www.webcom.com/~haahr/es/es-usenix-winter93.html

This discussion probably doesn't belong in comp.os.plan9 or 9fans.

Why?

[Andrew]

[Steve_Kilbane]
> 
> > Which UNIX tools do you use that are Plan-9-inspired?
> 
> The sam editor. The es and rc shells. The 8 1/2 -like X window

Is es the functional pattern-matching shell?
If so, where can I find it?

-- 
/d/def/s/scale/u/dup/f/forall{load def}{loop}stopped pop/r{u 1 lt{-1 0 moveto 1
1 lineto stroke}{[[(ha_a0\211)(db\\h\(~)(eVhdOj)(jd_dbd)(dh\\bT\200)(f_ab^\211)
(c]ffe\201)(`@h`x\200)(cZhd#h)(hb^d0v)(`Lh`8t)(eVhd\223~)(gj^a\230j)(h_ab\210a)
(gd^c\211\205)]{[exch{96 sub}f]}f]{gsave 1 64 div u s concat u 1 sub r grestore
}f}ifelse pop}d 240 u s 1.25 1 translate 4 r showpage% - acb@cs.monash.edu.au -

Why?

[Gary]

In message <DE5.95Sep6132919@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV>,	Dave Sill writes:
>Which UNIX tools do you use that are Plan-9-inspired?

rc, sam (neither original to Plan 9), 9term, wily

That is, shell, terminal and editor: most of my day-to-day contact
with the computer.

Why?

[Borja]

> 
> In article <42bea1$sm6@wolfe.wimsey.com> curt@cynic.portal.CA (Curt Sampson) writes:
> 
> > In article <DE5.95Aug30084445@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV>,
> > Dave Sill <de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.GOV> wrote:
> > >
> > >If $350 is a give-away, why not just sell it for $50-100 (to cover
> > >distribution costs)?
> > 
> > How do you know that $50-$100 would cover distribution costs?
> 
> My benchmark is Linux. There are 4-CD Linux distributions that sell
> for $25. Surely Plan 9 source, docs & binaries would fit on a couple
> CD's--forget the printed manuals.

	Linux is a public free system. The companies which "sell"
Linux ONLY have to cover the CD costs. They don't pay any license fees
because the authors of Linux don't want it. But not everyone
can *or wants to* give away a system. AT&T don't want to give it
away, and they have the right to do it. Anyway, think of it 
compared to other sold operating systems. It includes source code
(try to get sources for OS/2, any Windows version...)

	If we compare the price with the price of a computer...
it's a gift.

> I just think Plan 9 would have a bigger impact, and sooner, if it was
> less expensive. Yes, I *could* find $350...if I wanted it that
> badly. Think how many more people would buy it, try it, and hack on it
> if it was $50...

	Well, perhaps it's a cultural problem. I have paid more than
$700 for a bike, more for my caving equipment.... it would be great if
it was cheaper, but it isn't.

	Borja.


-- 
*******************************************************************
Borja Marcos               | Preferred: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11, 1. izq.     | Others:    borjamar@mx.sarenet.es
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)  |            100015.3502@compuserve.com
SPAIN                      | CIS:       100015,3502
******************************************************************

Why?

[Paul]

It costs a few bucks to make a CD.  It costs a lot of money to be a
corporation, have employees, pay lawyers, etc.  It is *totally*
unfare to compare Linux (or FreeBSD, or ...) to anything that is
done by a corporation.  They are totally different entities.
I am just happy that AT&T even allowed Plan 9 out the door and
made it for such a reasonable cost (I to would have liked it to
be cheaper, but I certainly can't complain about a $350 site
license).

			    -Paul Borman
			     prb@bsdi.com

> My benchmark is Linux. There are 4-CD Linux distributions that sell
> for $25. Surely Plan 9 source, docs & binaries would fit on a couple
> CD's--forget the printed manuals.
> 
> > Regardless, I don't see what the big problem with $350 is. There
> > are a lot of other areas of interest where you would have to justify
> > sums either similar or an order of magnitude larger, that to many
> > will seem unjustifiable.
> 
> I just think Plan 9 would have a bigger impact, and sooner, if it was
> less expensive. Yes, I *could* find $350...if I wanted it that
> badly. Think how many more people would buy it, try it, and hack on it
> if it was $50...
>  
> -- 
> Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)          <URL:http://www.digital.com/info/dsill.html>
> Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Oak Ridge National Lab, Workstation Support
> 

Why?

[Steve_Kilbane]

> Are there commercial applications available yet?

Unlikely, because it's only just become commercially available.

> Which UNIX tools do you use that are Plan-9-inspired?

The sam editor. The es and rc shells. The 8 1/2 -like X window
environment (9wm, 9term, 9menu). And recently, the ACME emulator
wily. There's not a lot else I use on my machine. :-)

steve

Why?

[Dave]

In article <42bea1$sm6@wolfe.wimsey.com> curt@cynic.portal.CA (Curt Sampson) writes:

> In article <DE5.95Aug30084445@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV>,
> Dave Sill <de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.GOV> wrote:
> >
> >If $350 is a give-away, why not just sell it for $50-100 (to cover
> >distribution costs)?
> 
> How do you know that $50-$100 would cover distribution costs?

My benchmark is Linux. There are 4-CD Linux distributions that sell
for $25. Surely Plan 9 source, docs & binaries would fit on a couple
CD's--forget the printed manuals.

> Regardless, I don't see what the big problem with $350 is. There
> are a lot of other areas of interest where you would have to justify
> sums either similar or an order of magnitude larger, that to many
> will seem unjustifiable.

I just think Plan 9 would have a bigger impact, and sooner, if it was
less expensive. Yes, I *could* find $350...if I wanted it that
badly. Think how many more people would buy it, try it, and hack on it
if it was $50...
 
-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)          <URL:http://www.digital.com/info/dsill.html>
Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Oak Ridge National Lab, Workstation Support

Why?

[Dave]

In article <424dn0$83h@jupiter.sdd.cegelecproj.co.uk> Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.UK (Steve_Kilbane) writes:

> And it's not a toy; it's a complete system that has been used solidly
> for about five years as some people's main computing platform.

Are there commercial applications available yet?

> Well, speaking personally, I'm damn glad it exists. It's been the
> source of inspiration for most of the tools I use on my UNIX box,
> and I hope this trend continues.

Which UNIX tools do you use that are Plan-9-inspired?

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)          <URL:http://www.digital.com/info/dsill.html>
Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Oak Ridge National Lab, Workstation Support

Why?

[presotto]

>How strictly is "organisation" defined? If a group of friends form an 
>informal Plan 9 Hackers' Club, can they legally install Plan 9 on their
>machines from the same CD provided that they don't make any commercial use
>of it? Is it one of those gray areas, like copying 10-year-old Commodore
>games or taping TV programs?

Given that lawyers wrote the license, I'ld bet my
salary that its any entity that can be sued.

This is, after all, a legal document.  I assume that
at the very least the organization has to have
some sort of legal standing, i.e., that it has officers filed
somewhere that are legally and financially liable.

If you want, you can always send us a letter as the
organization (letterhead and the whole deal) and we'll
forward it to the lawyers.

Remember though: some gray areas are best left that way.

Why?

[presotto]

>Is the licence one gets for $350 a site licence? Does this mean I
>can have it up and running on as many machines at my corporation as I
>like, without any further fee?

That's the intent.

Why?

[Curt]

In article <426c7u$m35@world.celsiustech.se>,
Bengt Kleberg <bkl@celsiustech.SE> wrote:

>Plan9 is is a distributed OS, to be used in heterogenous hardware
>environments. The standalone PC version is free, for the home hacker.
>The real version is $350 and supposedly used by several people. 10
>people makes it $35 each, 100 people makes it $3.5 each, none of which
>is expensive.

Is the licence one gets for $350 a site licence? Does this mean I
can have it up and running on as many machines at my corporation as I
like, without any further fee?

[ See http://plan9.att.com/plan9/shrink.html for the actual license. It
contains the following phrase "This SOFTWARE may be used by you or by
an organization of which you are a member or employee solely for
research or educational purposes." -- mod ]

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson    curt@portal.ca		Info at http://www.portal.ca/
Internet Portal Services, Inc.	
Vancouver, BC   (604) 257-9400		De gustibus, aut bene aut nihil.

Why?

[Curt]

In article <DE5.95Aug30084445@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV>,
Dave Sill <de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.GOV> wrote:

>I read through most of the Plan 9 web pages and was pretty excited at
>the prospect of running it on my PC, but when I saw the price I
>suffered a case of severe sticker shock. I can just imagine my wife's
>reaction if I told her I wanted to buy a $350 operating system simply
>because it's got some neat ideas in it.
>
>If $350 is a give-away, why not just sell it for $50-100 (to cover
>distribution costs)?

How do you know that $50-$100 would cover distribution costs?

I have fairly trivial sets of shell scripts and whatnot that I
would be perfectly happy to distribute freely, except that I don't
have the time to put together proper distribution packages. There's
a big gap between a system one can use in-house and one that one
can give to others, even if it's a research system.

Regardless, I don't see what the big problem with $350 is. There
are a lot of other areas of interest where you would have to justify
sums either similar or an order of magnitude larger, that to many
will seem unjustifiable.

Could you justify to your wife spending $250 on a dictionary? I
happen to own one (the Compact OED), and consider it an excellent
value.

Could you justify to your wife a $2500 bicycle? That's not an
unreasonable price for a good racing bike, even if it's not for a
pro racer.

And how on earth one could justify a $5000 computer anyway, I don't
know.

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson    curt@portal.ca		Info at http://www.portal.ca/
Internet Portal Services, Inc.	
Vancouver, BC   (604) 257-9400		De gustibus, aut bene aut nihil.

Why?

[Will]

David Breneman (david.BReneman@mccaw.COM) wrote:
[...]
: process. The last AT&T OS I saw pricing on was SVR4 for the 3B2-R3-1050.
: It was $35,000.  Knocking two of those zeros off is quite an accomplishment.
: The more pedestrian SVR 3.2 for the 3B2-400 was $1500.  Plan 9 is still
: a bargain compared to that.  The people who buy those type OSes are the
: customers for Plan 9.  Not the people who judge an OS by how pretty
: the icons are.  It's a bargain.

Those were commercial licenses, and Plan 9's CDROM is *not* commercial.
I don't know what a commercial license is, but a lot more than $350.
Might be worth it tho', if it's not in the tens of thousands.

Will
cwr@crash.cts.com

Why?

[Mike]

In article <SASDCK.95Aug31085830@borel.unx.sas.com>,
David Kelley <sasdck@unx.sas.COM> wrote:
)>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Sill <de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.GOV> writes:
)In article <DE5.95Aug29115013@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:
)
)Dave> Plan 9 sounds interesting, but why would I want to install it
)Dave> other than to satisfy my intellectual curiosity?
)
)I've been thinking of installing it as well, and I agree that I don't think
)it will serve any other purpose than that for me.  It's a for-the-heck-of-it,
)OS hobbyist kind of activity.
)
)I'm using Win95 and Linux.  But I'm short on diskspace (no wonder), 
)so I think I'll add a new drive and put Plan9 on the end of it for yucks.
)I'll keep critical data on the old drive since I'm wary of Plan9's
)presumptuous partitioning scheme.

The reason for investigating Plan 9 (named for the movie "Plan 9 from
Outer Space), is NONE OF THE ABOVE. Plan 9 is a "distributed" operating
system. So it can manage multiple CPU's. That is the real reason. It can
do things which Windows, DOS, MACOS, etc. never even thought of.

Mike
----
char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}

I don't speak for DSC.