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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="kim@westryn.net"; helo=mail.westryn.net; client-ip=199.48.135.251 Received: from mail.westryn.net (mail.westryn.net [199.48.135.251]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:48:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kim@westryn.net) Received: from smtpclient.apple (225x169.ouraynet.com [204.16.225.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.westryn.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 507EE1186FAE for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:48:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Kim Shrier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.500.171.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] troll paper Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:48:20 -0600 References: <742D19E4-EB85-48D0-9894-F30E40F5CD13@pobox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <742D19E4-EB85-48D0-9894-F30E40F5CD13@pobox.com> Message-Id: <1B7C5BF9-844A-4488-82D5-63740AFE7E1B@westryn.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.500.171.1.1) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 26968610-fb61-11ee-be2f-fe54f2445bfc Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNTFmN2Y1YTg5MjdlMTI3MS1NNTNmY2IwN2EyYTI0Yzc4YmMwZmQ1?= =?UTF-8?B?NTQ1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M53fcb07a2a24c78bc0fd5545:1:CpQ_m8JNz9KBNgr8-NDFbEjutXVpuZuqYmFtb_L2PKM > On Apr 12, 2024, at 4:56=E2=80=AFAM, David Arnold wrot= e: >=20 >> The vetting process needs some work, lads. >=20 > More heresy than trolling, perhaps? >=20 > It was thought-provoking for me. I wished I was there for the bar sessio= n afterwards.=20 >=20 > d It didn=E2=80=99t read like a troll paper to me. I periodically go through a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work was done. I do have an answer to the question, =E2=80=9CDo we really have to have our own kernel?=E2=80=9D. Yes. Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect of the software, including the kernel itself. Linux is not a good substitute for Plan 9. And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes as a tool for deploying services. I am having to live through Kubernetes hell in my day job. And, if I hear about it being =E2=80=9Cdeclarative=E2=80=9D as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend. I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on which one builds their systems in order to see if something needs to change or a completely different approach is warranted. I just come to different conclusions than the author of this paper. Kim _ C++ is an off-by-one error ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T51f7f5a8927e1271-M53fcb= 07a2a24c78bc0fd5545 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription