* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9?
@ 2000-06-25 11:56 forsyth
2000-06-25 18:52 ` [9fans] efficient programs as distinct from humble programmers Richard Uhtenwoldt
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2000-06-25 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>hate to see gnome ported and get 20meg staticaly linked
>>simple CD player
there are two ways to look at this. some say `and therefore shared libraries
are needed'; others wonder `and why exactly is the stuff underpinning a
simple CD player 20 meg in the first place?'.
i had recently wondered why, in the computing world, names that
really ought to refer to rather nimble little things -- elf, dwarf and gnome, for instance --
almost invariably refer to overly large, complex, overblown things
(that were large to begin with). what must their designers' gardens look like?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* [9fans] efficient programs as distinct from humble programmers 2000-06-25 11:56 [9fans] SO for plan9? forsyth @ 2000-06-25 18:52 ` Richard Uhtenwoldt 2000-06-26 9:03 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Michael Dingler 2000-06-26 13:53 ` James A. Robinson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Richard Uhtenwoldt @ 2000-06-25 18:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans in the late 70s, Edsger Dijkstra and Tony Hoare advocated the "humble-programmer" philosophy, which says that humans tend to overestimate their ability to handle complexity in software and consequently one should strive (in addition to one's other objectives) to pessimize the complexity (measured in lines of code) of the software one relies on. often, this is achieved by finding a novel way of viewing or conceptualizing the problem (like per-process namespaces). they pointed out the programmer who can meet a set of requirements with fewer lines of code is the better programmer because a smaller program will usually be easier for the user to control, more likely to behave the way the programmer thinks it will behave and easier for future programmers to modify to do something the original programmer did not provide for. in summary, a "humbly-written" program will not unnecessarily waste the time and the attention of the programmer trying to modify it or the user trying to control it. large (ie, rich, generally useful) humbly-written programs are rare. the Plan 9 papers make it clear that the core designers of Plan 9 are humble programmers: 3 or 4 times, I saw words to the effect "we were able to provide this functionality in only XX,000 lines of code" (and yet Plan 9 appears to provide a rich, generally useful software environment). it is important to distinguish between the aforementioned conserving of human attentional resources and conserving memory, disk, bandwidth and cpu resources. memory size, disk size, bandwidth and cpu speed double every few years. the speed at which a person can learn or the number of things a person can keep track of does not grow like that. that is why I do not like the term "code bloat". most Linuxers who use that term are deploring the wasting of cpu or memory resources. it would be more clear if those people refer to "inefficiency". some people --like dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com in the following quote-- use the term "code bloat" to mean what I would rather call "gratuitous complexity": > > hate to see gnome ported and get 20meg staticaly linked > > simple CD player > > So basically you want shared libraries to mitigate the effects > of code bloat? Why not do away with the code bloat instead? > This is Plan 9's approach. this use of "code bloat" managed to confuse at least one person, who thought it referred to wasting memory: >huh !?! > >i thought statically linking each and every application in the system >IS code bloat (note that I have not taken a position on shared libraries.) -- Richard Uhtenwoldt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-25 11:56 [9fans] SO for plan9? forsyth 2000-06-25 18:52 ` [9fans] efficient programs as distinct from humble programmers Richard Uhtenwoldt @ 2000-06-26 9:03 ` Michael Dingler 2000-06-26 10:23 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-26 13:53 ` James A. Robinson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Michael Dingler @ 2000-06-26 9:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > i had recently wondered why, in the computing world, names that > really ought to refer to rather nimble little things -- elf, dwarf and gnome, > for instance -- almost invariably refer to overly large, complex, overblown > things (that were large to begin with). what must their designers' gardens > look like? Oh, was this paragraph meant as a troll? SCNR And to be honest, dwarfs and gnomes were quite small in most folkloristic traditions, but often misshapen. So the relationship might still be there. BTW, what naming tradition would be suitable for Plan 9? There aren't that many puns on Ed Wood movies. General alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? ("Acme"). Or starting everything with "P"? (Can't wait for the Plan9 Email Explorer) ...Michael... (rumpelstiltskin already in use?) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-26 9:03 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Michael Dingler @ 2000-06-26 10:23 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-26 14:22 ` Steve Kotsopoulos 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Nigel Roles @ 2000-06-26 10:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? I don't think 'sam' implies a restriction to men's names. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-26 10:23 ` Nigel Roles @ 2000-06-26 14:22 ` Steve Kotsopoulos 2000-06-26 14:44 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-27 8:31 ` Michael Dingler 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Steve Kotsopoulos @ 2000-06-26 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans "Nigel Roles" wrote: > > alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? > > I don't think 'sam' implies a restriction to men's names. sam is actually short for Samantha ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-26 14:22 ` Steve Kotsopoulos @ 2000-06-26 14:44 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-27 8:31 ` Michael Dingler 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Nigel Roles @ 2000-06-26 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Oh, I was leaving that as an exercise to the reader. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Kotsopoulos" <steve@nevex.com> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? > "Nigel Roles" wrote: > > > alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? > > > > I don't think 'sam' implies a restriction to men's names. > > sam is actually short for Samantha ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-26 14:22 ` Steve Kotsopoulos 2000-06-26 14:44 ` Nigel Roles @ 2000-06-27 8:31 ` Michael Dingler 2000-06-28 8:27 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Michael Dingler @ 2000-06-27 8:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > > alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? > > > > I don't think 'sam' implies a restriction to men's names. > > sam is actually short for Samantha Hmm, I remember seeing the name "jim" mentioned in the original paper, where did that came from then, "jimpanzees"? ...Michael... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-27 8:31 ` Michael Dingler @ 2000-06-28 8:27 ` Steve Simon 2000-06-28 9:40 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-29 8:31 ` Douglas A. Gwyn 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2000-06-28 8:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Michael Dingler wrote: > > > > > alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? > > > > > > I don't think 'sam' implies a restriction to men's names. > > > > sam is actually short for Samantha > > Hmm, I remember seeing the name "jim" mentioned in the > original paper, where did that came from then, > "jimpanzees"? > > ...Michael... I could be wrong but I beleive it went: ed - The first Unix editor jim - a Mouse _only_ editor on the blit, where everything started with a 'j', somthing to do with a jerq but I never did find out what that was. sam - the end of editor evolution - perfection :-) -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-28 8:27 ` Steve Simon @ 2000-06-28 9:40 ` Nigel Roles [not found] ` <ngr@9fs.org> 2000-06-29 8:31 ` Douglas A. Gwyn 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Nigel Roles @ 2000-06-28 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: steve, 9fans > started with a 'j', somthing to do with a jerq > but I never did find out what that was. This is perhaps a pejorative reference to a certain expensive ICL bitmapped workstation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <ngr@9fs.org>]
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? [not found] ` <ngr@9fs.org> @ 2000-06-28 16:50 ` Tom Duff 2000-06-29 8:29 ` [9fans] Blit jerq etc - postscript Steve Simon 2000-06-29 12:59 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Douglas Fraser 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Tom Duff @ 2000-06-28 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans; +Cc: td On Jun 28, 10:40am, Nigel Roles wrote: > Subject: Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? > > started with a 'j', somthing to do with a jerq > > but I never did find out what that was. > > This is perhaps a pejorative reference to a certain > expensive ICL bitmapped workstation. I was there, so I know the story. When the Lucasfilm computer division was founded in 1980, we looked around for machines to use in animators' and artists' workstations, and seeing no other reasonable alternatives (Sun and SGI had not been founded yet) we picked the Three Rivers Computer Corporation's PERQ (ICL sold these in Britain.) These gadgets were closely modeled on the Xerox ALTO. They could address 2MB of memory, and had an 800x1024x1 bit display -- unheard-of in those days of PDP-11s and cursor- addressed terminals. My first job at Lucasfilm was to produce a C compiler for this machine. Until the compiler was written, the machine was really only good for running the canned trade-show demo that came with it. This was the usual travesty of industrial hyperbole, making bold claims and predictions that the actual hardware and software could live up to only in a marketeers imagination. It was inevitable that someone would hack the demo to tell the real truth, that the machine crashed all the time, that the microcode was full of bugs, that there was no software at all, in the funniest and most embarrassing manner possible. The revised demo referred to the machine as the Jerq. Some time in early 1981, Rob came to visit, saw the updated demo, and on his return to Bell Labs, stole the name to christen the similar beast that he and Bart Locanthi (and Dave Ditzel?) were working on. The J theme did run through all the jerq software names. The debugger was called joff (the Jerq Obscure Feature Finder), the editor was jim, the bitmap editor was jraw (or was that the schematic capture program?) -- Tom Duff. You can't go anywhere without roots. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Blit jerq etc - postscript 2000-06-28 16:50 ` Tom Duff @ 2000-06-29 8:29 ` Steve Simon 2000-06-30 8:24 ` [9fans] 8088 compiling blit (was Re: Blit jerq etc - postscript) Russell Nelson 2000-06-29 12:59 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Douglas Fraser 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2000-06-29 8:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Tom Duff wrote: [snip...] > Some time in early 1981, Rob came to > visit, saw the updated demo, and on > his return to Bell Labs, stole the > name to christen the similar beast > that he and Bart Locanthi (and Dave > Ditzel?) were working on. > > The J theme did run through all the > jerq software names. The debugger was > called joff (the Jerq Obscure Feature > Finder), the editor was jim, the > bitmap editor was jraw (or was that > the schematic capture program?) > I always wondered where it all came from... Just in case someone is interested more, the BLIT software has been released at http://www.bell-labs.com/user/dwd/5620faq.html I found this a very usefull lesson in how to implement graphics and particularly the blitblit() function which I needed for an embedded graphics system recently. -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* [9fans] 8088 compiling blit (was Re: Blit jerq etc - postscript) 2000-06-29 8:29 ` [9fans] Blit jerq etc - postscript Steve Simon @ 2000-06-30 8:24 ` Russell Nelson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Russell Nelson @ 2000-06-30 8:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Steve Simon <steve@savan.demon.co.uk> writes: > Just in case someone is interested more, the BLIT > software has been released at > http://www.bell-labs.com/user/dwd/5620faq.html If anybody's interested, GPL'ed source code for my[1] 8088 compiling blit is at ftp://ftp.crynwr.com/pa/ . Most of a monochrome windowing system is there, all in 8088 assembly language. Look for compile_blit in painti.asm in pasrc.zip. [1] Patrick Naughton wrote substantial parts of Painter's Apprentice, however the compiling blit is all mine. -- -russ nelson <sig@russnelson.com> http://russnelson.com Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Is Unix compatible with Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | Linux? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-28 16:50 ` Tom Duff 2000-06-29 8:29 ` [9fans] Blit jerq etc - postscript Steve Simon @ 2000-06-29 12:59 ` Douglas Fraser 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Douglas Fraser @ 2000-06-29 12:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Tom Duff wrote: <snip> > Some time in early 1981, Rob came to > visit, saw the updated demo, and on > his return to Bell Labs, stole the > name to christen the similar beast > that he and Bart Locanthi (and Dave > Ditzel?) were working on. > > The J theme did run through all the > jerq software names. The debugger was > called joff (the Jerq Obscure Feature > Finder), the editor was jim, the > bitmap editor was jraw (or was that > the schematic capture program?) > > -- > Tom Duff. You can't go anywhere without roots. Being a subsequent _long_ time owner/user of a AT&T 5620 bit mapped terminal, I appreciate the little history here. I picked one up (way cheap) from a small engineering firm that had gone bankrupt. That and a 3b2/300 and three 3B1s. No one knew what they were so no one else bid on them. I used the 5620 for eight years before finally getting a 720 ('son of 5620') and eventually a 730 with (gasp!) an X terminal cartridge. Thematically, the three were very consistent. The 5620 went to the curb after finding that no one (me included) wanted it anymore. The 3b2 died. The three 3b1s (all running...) were donated to a young man in Pennsylvania for his computer museum last spring. The TEK 4014 emulation on the 5620 was a hoot. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-28 8:27 ` Steve Simon 2000-06-28 9:40 ` Nigel Roles @ 2000-06-29 8:31 ` Douglas A. Gwyn 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Douglas A. Gwyn @ 2000-06-29 8:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Steve Simon wrote: > jim - a Mouse _only_ editor on the blit, where everything > started with a 'j', somthing to do with a jerq > but I never did find out what that was. "Jerq" was a pun on "PERQ", which was a bitmap-oriented workstation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] SO for plan9? 2000-06-25 11:56 [9fans] SO for plan9? forsyth 2000-06-25 18:52 ` [9fans] efficient programs as distinct from humble programmers Richard Uhtenwoldt 2000-06-26 9:03 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Michael Dingler @ 2000-06-26 13:53 ` James A. Robinson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: James A. Robinson @ 2000-06-26 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > There aren't that many puns on Ed Wood movies. General > alien stuff? Men's names ('sam'). Cartoon references? > ("Acme"). I always wondered if Acme was "as in Acme Tools, Inc. (c)" or as in "point of perfection." =) If someone ports gnome that person can call it Battlefield Bell Labs. Jim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-06-30 8:24 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2000-06-25 11:56 [9fans] SO for plan9? forsyth 2000-06-25 18:52 ` [9fans] efficient programs as distinct from humble programmers Richard Uhtenwoldt 2000-06-26 9:03 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Michael Dingler 2000-06-26 10:23 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-26 14:22 ` Steve Kotsopoulos 2000-06-26 14:44 ` Nigel Roles 2000-06-27 8:31 ` Michael Dingler 2000-06-28 8:27 ` Steve Simon 2000-06-28 9:40 ` Nigel Roles [not found] ` <ngr@9fs.org> 2000-06-28 16:50 ` Tom Duff 2000-06-29 8:29 ` [9fans] Blit jerq etc - postscript Steve Simon 2000-06-30 8:24 ` [9fans] 8088 compiling blit (was Re: Blit jerq etc - postscript) Russell Nelson 2000-06-29 12:59 ` [9fans] SO for plan9? Douglas Fraser 2000-06-29 8:31 ` Douglas A. Gwyn 2000-06-26 13:53 ` James A. Robinson
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