Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[David Gordon Hogan]

> This involved applying the PAP patch to PPP and using the script:
> ip/ppp -s $host:$pass -uf -p '#t/eia1' -b115200
> then,
> atdt0,5303333^M

I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt<number>^M", (and
sometimes getting it wrong) and then having to participate in
further handshaking (and sometimes head-scratching) with my
ISP.  Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
automated?

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Boyd Roberts]

From: David Gordon Hogan <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>
> 
> I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt<number>^M

phone was for voice.  modems suck the mop [thanks td].

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Scott Schwartz]

| Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
| automated?

telco fixes the phone dialing part in what I think is a really nice way.

RE: [9fans] source code as data not text

[David Gordon Hogan]

> I would rather have code stored in a
> clustered rdbms that is accessed through its own shell [that is
> cross-platform like limbo]

The last thing we need is another shell.

What if the code were accessed through a file system interface
which is cross-platform?

Re: [9fans] source code as data not text

[Steve Kilbane]

dhog:
> What if the code were accessed through a file system interface
> which is cross-platform?

As has been pointed out, how something is stored isn't that relevant
here; the issue is *what*, and the principle issue is whether your
program is stored as ascii source, or as some other representation
(that presumably adds additional structuring, else why bother?)

If you're storing an ascii file, then whether you store it in
a cvs-like system, an RDBMS or something entirely different isn't
that much more important than whether it's stored in a file system
that's on a local disk or a networked one: you may need to use
special means to retrieve it, but that's your call.

If it's plain ascii, and you've got an editor that can show pretty
colours, then fine. I'm happy for you, and it doesn't mean that anything
special has to be done to the file that'll stop it working on any other
editor.

If your source file is saved as something that represents additional
structure, then I'd suggest you're using the wrong terminology: that's
an object file, that's been compiled into another representation. From
here on in, you need a special set of tools to interpret and manipulate
the contents of that file. Regardless of the means by which you retrieved
the file, it's effectively a black box to most of the surrounding
system.

As I've said for many a year, "standardise on file formats and protocols,
and the applications take care of themselves."

steve

RE: [9fans] source code as data not text

[Richard Elberger]

Yes, I think my wording was too general.  Yes, too many shells like sh and
ksh, but I wasn't thinking a cmd line shell -- just would like to see a
standard wrapper for the handling of code, how it maps to business (or
other) process -- like if a "feature module" will be plugged in or not to
the build, and how that is managed/operated, knowing where the code was
coming from, what environment it was written in, what scenarios/environment
it was unit tested in, etc ... a lot of things to track and imo it is all
important (though varying in degrees of importance).  Kind of like an app,
but it is basically a software team's creative bucket -- a system that is
self-enclosed and shares namespaces (be it source, devices, or workspaces).
So much stuff and syntax checking is just part of an app that is part of
what should be a consistent system to minimize risk.

I already thought of styx, and how it would be excellent to leverage this
for a full-on collaborative development environment.  It would be a huge
undertaking to create something like this, and it would be very exciting.

-- rich

>-----Original Message-----
>From: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu]On Behalf
>Of David Gordon Hogan
>Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2001 6:49 a.m.
>To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>Subject: RE: [9fans] source code as data not text
>
>
>> I would rather have code stored in a
>> clustered rdbms that is accessed through its own shell [that is
>> cross-platform like limbo]
>
>The last thing we need is another shell.
>
>What if the code were accessed through a file system interface
>which is cross-platform?
>
>

RE: [9fans] source code as data not text

[Richard Elberger]

>
>As has been pointed out, how something is stored isn't that relevant
>here; the issue is *what*, and the principle issue is whether your
>program is stored as ascii source, or as some other representation
>(that presumably adds additional structuring, else why bother?)
>
>If you're storing an ascii file, then whether you store it in
>a cvs-like system, an RDBMS or something entirely different isn't
>that much more important than whether it's stored in a file system
>that's on a local disk or a networked one: you may need to use
>special means to retrieve it, but that's your call.
>

How something is stored is very relevant to source management -- you'd
better ask the operations folks who have to run the hardware and are
responsible for maintaining data integrity.

-- rich

Re: [9fans] source code as data not text

[Steve Kilbane]

> How something is stored is very relevant to source management

Sigh. I was trying to clarify the issues, but obviously failed.
I'll try a different tack.

The discussion started off with syntax-directed editors, picked
up issues concerned with proprietary file formats, and then moved
into proprietary repositories versus things with a file-system.
My apologies for over-simplifying.

My point was merely this: given a file that contains some
representation of source, the issues of the file's internal
structure, the structure of the repository that holds the
file, and the how the file's contents are rendered
to the user are distinct issues and should not be confused.

The storage system is not relevant in all cases, but in the
discussion of what you do with a file _once you've retrieved
it from the storage system_, it is.

steve

Re: [9fans] source code as data not text

[Boyd Roberts]

my man dhog speaks ths truth:

> The last thing we need is another shell.

how many does vita's inferno have?  n too many.

Re: [9fans] sam vs acme

[David Gordon Hogan]

boyd@fr.inter.net writes:
> no, that _thing_ will bite you further down the track and it
> was foolish to build it.

Sadly, that thing often bites everyone else down the track,
not just its perpetrator.

Re: [9fans] sam vs acme

[James A. Robinson]

Random thoughts on acme, sam, and the acme clone wily...

I've never used the real acme for any length of time, but I did use wily
for many years under Linux and Solaris.  For the past year or so I've
been using sam as my main editor.  I just installed the latest Inferno
updates and have played around with the new Inferno acme (now with Edit!).

One thing that wily had in commmon with acme was the concept of a scratch
window, and it had the ability to have guides.  While I liked that,
I also very much like sam's ~~sam~~ body.  The concept of a window for
edit commands to run on the active window is very nice.  With wily,
if you execute >, <, or | commands, it runs it on the selected text in
what it thinks is the active body.  That's a nice feature, similar in
concept to the ~~sam~~ window.

The reason I like an entry window or scratch space which works on the
most recent selecteed text is that I don't have enough space to work in
the tag.  Because acme uses full file names, often I find myself with
not much space in the tag for |, >, or < commands. I know it will scroll
along, but for some reason I just don't like typing commands into the
tag when the front half gets scrolled off the left-hand edge.

I don't know if Plan 9 acme takes advantage of shell variables, but the
one in inferno doesn't appear to.  One thing nice about wily was that
you could have defined $pisa_util/JournalLister.java to reference the
file /home/jimr/proj/pisa/src/org/highwire/util/JournalLister.java.

Now that acme has the Edit command, sam's power is available but,
unless I'm missing something, it's still a bit of a disconnect using
Edit on a window.  Using the tag works, but it is kind of restrictive
in terms of space (I often use varitions of x/pat/ { nested commands }).
Using Edit commands picked up from a scratch body  (cut, paste, move to
target body's tag and paste into Edit) works well enough, but I'd really
love to see an ~~acme~~ body which just knows the last active body, and
lets me execute commands I type in or mouse2 on.  I'm curious whether
or not anyone else has the same interface tastes?

My other thought is that, if an ~~acme~~ window were created so commands
ran on a server on the other side of a wire, it would be very fast to
make edits on large files, since all the data could be processed on the
server side -- you would only pull down updates to the visible portion.
I know Rob mentioned he had thought about a client/server approach to
acme, and think that is an awesome idea.


Jim

Re: [9fans] sam vs acme

[Steve Kilbane]

Jim mused:

> target body's tag and paste into Edit) works well enough, but I'd really
> love to see an ~~acme~~ body which just knows the last active body

this worked in sam because of click-to-type. i don't know whether it
would work in acme. it *could* work in wily, since wily remembers the
last window on which you clicked; it did so in order that | > < would
work from misc guide files.

Re: [9fans] sam vs acme

[Boyd Roberts]

From: "David Gordon Hogan" <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>
> Sadly, that thing often bites everyone else down the track,
> not just its perpetrator.

oh so true ...

Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9

[David Gordon Hogan]

> One big difference I've seen in past examples of paging systems
> can be summarized as: page against everyone vs. page only against
> oneself.  The latter is sometimes called the "working set" model.
> The former tends to make the whole system unusable when a process
> lets its address space get out of control, while the latter tends
> to run other processes pretty much the same under such conditions.

I'm wondering if anyone's ever tried to treat this as a `bandwidth sharing'
issue, and applied techniques like Fair Queueing.

Admittedly it's more complex than a simple bandwidth sharing problem.
There are two resources to share: the page pool and the paging device
IO, and there are interactions between the two.

Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9

[Scott Schwartz]

| I'm wondering if anyone's ever tried to treat this as a `bandwidth sharing'
| issue, and applied techniques like Fair Queueing.

Wasn't there a usenix paper by someone at the labs a while back on
something like that?

Re: [9fans] on TCP vs IL

[David Gordon Hogan]

> Not to
> mention gorgeously huge address-space, which makes for consideration of
> interesting mappings of persistant datastore into the network address space.

You _could_ do that.  But some of us would Persistantly Object.

Do you really want each byte to have its own IP address?

Re: [9fans] on TCP vs IL

[George Michaelson]

> >Not to
> >mention gorgeously huge address-space, which makes for consideration of
> >interesting mappings of persistant datastore into the network address space.
>
> You _could_ do that.  But some of us would Persistantly Object.
>
> Do you really want each byte to have its own IP address?
>

Um.. why not? I mean, in the reductionist world of theoretical wanking
of which I am an exemplar, isn't this precicely what persistant distributed
programming is maybe about?

There was a school of thought around this stuff from Glasgow a few years
back doing Persistant Pascal. I seem to recall 128-bit disk addressing being
on the table. This was an analogue, a corrollary of the 128bit VLIW model
of instruction wasn't it? Its not a long jump from disk address to network
address if you consider the namespaces ideas is it?

cheers
	-George
--
George Michaelson       |  APNIC
Email: ggm@apnic.net    |  PO Box 2131 Milton QLD 4064
Phone: +61 7 3367 0490  |  Australia
  Fax: +61 7 3367 0482  |  http://www.apnic.net

Re: [9fans] on TCP vs IL

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com (David Gordon Hogan) writes:

> > Not to
> > mention gorgeously huge address-space, which makes for consideration of
> > interesting mappings of persistant datastore into the network address space.
>
> You _could_ do that.  But some of us would Persistantly Object.
>
> Do you really want each byte to have its own IP address?

Yes, frankly, I would love that.  It might be too expensive, but if
not, it would truly be wonderful to have.

Re: [9fans] on TCP vs IL

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

"Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote:
> dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com (David Gordon Hogan) writes:
> > Do you really want each byte to have its own IP address?
> Yes, frankly, I would love that.  It might be too expensive, but if
> not, it would truly be wonderful to have.

Personally I wish each *bit* in the universe had a unique address.

Re: [9fans] on TCP vs IL

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

"Douglas A. Gwyn" <DAGwyn@null.net> writes:

> "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote:
> > dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com (David Gordon Hogan) writes:
> > > Do you really want each byte to have its own IP address?
> > Yes, frankly, I would love that.  It might be too expensive, but if
> > not, it would truly be wonderful to have.
>
> Personally I wish each *bit* in the universe had a unique address.

Heh, yeah, that would be nice.  Though, as I was once taught, a "byte"
is officially the minimal addressible unit on an architecture... if
every bit is separately addressed, then hey, we've just switched to
one-bit bytes, right?

But these days the philistines have forgotten about fine old 36-bit
wordsize machines and the like, and have just synonymized "byte" and
the neologism "octet".

Sic transit gloria computorum.

Re: [9fans] on TCP vs IL

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

"Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote:
> ...  Though, as I was once taught, a "byte"
> is officially the minimal addressible unit on an architecture...

No, although within C the term "byte" is practically synonymous
with "minimum unit addresable by standard language constructs".

Generally, a byte is a collection of bits within a machine word
that are treated as representing a complete field.  Some systems
had variable-sized byte instructions, some had fixed-size byte
operations, some had no direct support for bytes (although one
could use word-oriented instructions to manipulate artificially
defined byte fields).

> But these days the philistines have forgotten about fine old 36-bit
> wordsize machines and the like, and have just synonymized "byte" and
> the neologism "octet".

The 8-bit byte became common with 16-bit minicomputers and the
IBM System/360.  Consequently when storage devices for those
platforms had their capacity specified in "bytes", everyone
understood that to mean 8-bit bytes.  This carried over into
other processors, especially since the 8-bit byte sufficed for
the most common character encodings of the time, ASCII and
EBCDIC.  But since "byte" does not logically always imply
8 bits, careful specifications such as the IETF Internet RFPs
tend to use the term "octet" when exactly 8 bits are meant.

Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c

[David Gordon Hogan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 437 bytes --]

I started unifying all the various ``Plan 9 on Unix & Nt'' thingies
a while ago, but I got bogged down trying to make a better
Inferno, which nobody (here at least) really wanted.

I've shelved the Inferno effort.  Russ has been helping with
drawterm, on and off.  I might spend some time over the
weekend tidying up the remainder of "9pm".  There shouldn't
be all these different versions of sam and the supporting libraries.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1698 bytes --]

From: Boyd Roberts <boyd@strakt.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:15:39 +0100
Message-ID: <3C11155B.9D4309DD@strakt.com>

> The "9libs" version of libXg doesn't appear
> to have this problem.

My version came from:

    http://netlib.bell-labs.com/netlib/research/sam.shar.gz

Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c

[Boyd Roberts]

> There shouldn't be all these different versions of sam and the supporting libraries.

Right!

Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c

[Scott Schwartz]

David writes:
> There shouldn't be all these different versions of sam and the supporting
> libraries.

What he said.  Sign me up for the cleanup project.

Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c

[Boyd Roberts]

> What he said.  Sign me up for the cleanup project.

Please try and factor in being able to turn off UTF
to make latin-1 on unix bearable.  It's probably a
compile time thing, unless you live in 'mixed' universe.

In a 'mixed' universe it's probably pretty tricky to
do in any simple, general way.

Thanks.

Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c

[Maarit Maliniemi]

In article <20011207200957.4622.qmail@f.bio.cse.psu.edu>,
9fans@cse.psu.edu wrote:

>  Sign me up for the cleanup project.

Since Mark is very busy with other things I am sure that interested
parties can just ask for 9libs. Provided that one wants to use auto-tools,
ofcourse.
Sam-9libs is always avaliable for anybody that wants to do something in C.
After beeing allowed back into heaven (HLL coding) I have great
difficulties persuading myself to start activly maintaing it again.

bengt

Re: [9fans] libXg/test.c

[Leo Caves]

David Gordon Hogan wrote:
>
> I started unifying all the various ``Plan 9 on Unix & Nt'' thingies
> a while ago, but I got bogged down trying to make a better
> Inferno, which nobody (here at least) really wanted.
>


David, care to elaborate on how you were trying to better inferno?
Leo

Re: [9fans] /sys/src/^(9 boot)^/pc/memory.c

[David Gordon Hogan]

> Oops. I did not combine using the wavelan and trying
> to use the i81x driver. If I do have a wavelan in the
> pcmcia slot and I let aux/vga be run (trying i81x on
> thinkpad R31, mouseport ps2, vgasize 640x480x8, monitor xga)
> I get:
>
> panic: mmuwalk2: va 80526000 entry 4001E3

The i81x driver uses mmuwalk() to get the PTE of a single
page that it allocates for the hardware cursor.  It needs this
to mark the memory as uncached, otherwise the hardware
cursor won't update correctly.  Unfortunately, this strategy
only works if the cursor is allocated in the first 4M of memory.
After that, it isn't possible to single out an individual page
in the kernel virtual mapping.  Hence the panic.

I'm not sure how to fix this.  It might be neccesary to change
the page table to make the appropriate 4M region use a level
2 page table.

Re: [9fans] /sys/src/^(9 boot)^/pc/memory.c

[Scott Schwartz]

| page that it allocates for the hardware cursor.

Can someone remind me why we can't use software cursors in 4e?

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Greg Shubin]

David Gordon Hogan wrote:

> gshubin@sonic.net writes:
> > > there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> > > they won't say what it is.
> > >
> >
> > It means they haven't built the CO within 17kft of your location.
>
> Actually, no it doesn't mean that.

For the sense-of-humor impaired and/or phone company employees, here are
some smileys. Insert as needed.


:-) :-) :-) :-) :) :) :) :) .

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[David Gordon Hogan]

gshubin@sonic.net writes:
> > there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> > they won't say what it is.
> >
> 
> It means they haven't built the CO within 17kft of your location.

Actually, no it doesn't mean that.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Greg Shubin]

David Gordon Hogan wrote:

> there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> they won't say what it is.
>

It means they haven't built the CO within 17kft of your location.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Richard Miller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1104 bytes --]

dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com says:

> I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt<number>^M", (and
> sometimes getting it wrong) and then having to participate in
> further handshaking (and sometimes head-scratching) with my
> ISP.  Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
> automated?

The "atdt<number>^M" part can be automated by using -p telco!ispname
if you trust telco (and if your /lib/ndb/local has a line like
sys=ispname telco=555-1234).

The further handshaking (if you need a login script for an isp
which doesn't support CHAP or PAP) can be automated by persuading
ip/ppp to call a command, in the manner of the -c option of con(1),
instead of reading user input.  You can use rc as a scripting language -
below is my quickly thrown together script for logging into Compuserve
(where 'cread -t N C' is a variant of read(1) which copies from stdin
to stdout until either a character C is encountered or N seconds elapse).

I could post the source for cread, and the change to ppp to call command
scripts, but they're both pretty obvious.

-- Richard


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 542 bytes --]


echo $0 running >[1=2]
send ''
while (! expect 10 ame:) {send ''}
send CIS
if (! expect 10 ID:) exit 'no ID prompt'
send $host/GO:PPPCONNECT
expect 60 GO:
if (! expect 10 ord:) exit 'no password prompt'
sendq $pass
readuntil 'One moment please'

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Boyd Roberts]

From: rob pike <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>

> what, you mean about getting a new telephone pole installed on my property
> to support the positive-pressure nitrogen-filled cable that delivered the
twisted
> pair? that story?  no, no interest here.

story i heard was tha at&t didn't wanna sell them 'cos
of some 'oh, yer gonna build a phone company'.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 362 bytes --]

It does.  However, it doesn't do the reset of the handshake.  There are
too many danged ways to attach to an ISP.  I have to dial the number,
type a user name, an exncrypted time, and then the string ppp, each
to a prompt and with no type ahead allowed.  My mom's ISP goes through
a similar but different dance.  My girl friend's uses PAP without
a dance.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1674 bytes --]

From: Scott Schwartz <schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:08:56 -0500
Message-ID: <20001114200857.10888.qmail@f.bio.cse.psu.edu>

| Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
| automated?

telco fixes the phone dialing part in what I think is a really nice way.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[rob pike]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 211 bytes --]

what, you mean about getting a new telephone pole installed on my property
to support the positive-pressure nitrogen-filled cable that delivered the twisted
pair? that story?  no, no interest here.

-rob


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2012 bytes --]

From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@planete.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:02:03 +0100
Message-ID: <017001c04e75$c329a380$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>

From: rob pike <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?


> 3 months! It's just starting, man.  I've been waiting since March, when they
took my deposit money.
> Kick back, relax.  It's the information age.
>

rob, tell the story about the grief to get a T1.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Boyd Roberts]

From: rob pike <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?


> 3 months! It's just starting, man.  I've been waiting since March, when they
took my deposit money.
> Kick back, relax.  It's the information age.
>

rob, tell the story about the grief to get a T1.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Boyd Roberts]

From: David Gordon Hogan <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>


> Today it will be exactly 3 calendar months since I placed my
> DSL order.  I'm still waiting.  Verizon are telling Covad that
> there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> they won't say what it is.

oh solid hogan, you gotta get some perspective.  my cable mob
in paris promised for TWO YEARS.  i got my adsl 6 months ago.
one of the reason i opted for digital cable.

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[rob pike]

3 months! It's just starting, man.  I've been waiting since March, when they took my deposit money.
Kick back, relax.  It's the information age.

-rob

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[David Gordon Hogan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 218 bytes --]

Today it will be exactly 3 calendar months since I placed my
DSL order.  I'm still waiting.  Verizon are telling Covad that
there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
they won't say what it is.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1890 bytes --]

From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@planete.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:45:29 +0100
Message-ID: <014401c04e73$716c4360$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>

From: David Gordon Hogan <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>
> 
> I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt<number>^M

phone was for voice.  modems suck the mop [thanks td].

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 254 bytes --]

I started writing a scripting language for it and got distracted by
looking at the Unix one, expect(?).  I'll get back to it eventually or someone
else should do it.  Then we could have standard scripts for different
ISP's and avoid a lot of typing.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1604 bytes --]

From: David Gordon Hogan <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:19:02 -0500
Message-ID: <20001114193544.A4252199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>

> This involved applying the PAP patch to PPP and using the script:
> ip/ppp -s $host:$pass -uf -p '#t/eia1' -b115200
> then,
> atdt0,5303333^M

I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt<number>^M", (and
sometimes getting it wrong) and then having to participate in
further handshaking (and sometimes head-scratching) with my
ISP.  Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
automated?

[9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[William Staniewicz]

With the help of:
nigel@9fs.org presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com miller@hamnavoe.demon.co.uk
I believe I have managed to be able to log on to my ISP.
This involved applying the PAP patch to PPP and using the script:
ip/ppp -s $host:$pass -uf -p '#t/eia1' -b115200
then,
atdt0,5303333^M

When I test the "log on" status with,
term% ip/ping 195.121.1.34 there  seems to be a connection.

What I have not done yet is provide for my
ISPs Domain Name Servers dns=195.121.1.34 and
My ISPs server uses DYNAMIC IP numbers.

I suspect I will need to put that information
the ipconfig command.

I hope I have documented this well enough so others can apply
it to their own situation. I know the archives have been useful to me
as well as the feedback from my postings.

Bill

[9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[William Staniewicz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 0 bytes --]



[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1172 bytes --]

From: William Staniewicz <wstan>
To: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:33:13 +0100
Message-ID: <20001113203313.A231@localhost.local>

On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 12:53:08PM -0500, presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

....

> It looks like you just aren't talking to the modem.  If you can come
> up standalone, try just this:
> 
> 	con -l /dev/eia1
> 
> and then see if you can get a response from it.  It should respond
> to just at^M
> 
Here are my results as I follow your advise posted above:

term% con -l /dev/eia1
at^M
OK

Furthermore, if I type in the command...

atdt0,5303333^M

... it dials the number. (I can here the dialing on the speaker.)

> What kind of modem is this?

According to the packing slip, it is a:

US Robotics x2 (56K) Data/Fax Modem for Win95

Currently, it works OK with my FreeBSD OS and Win95.

Bill

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[William Staniewicz]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 10:49:28AM -0500, presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> Try it without telco at all.  Just dial the number through ppp.  We
> can cross the telco bridge when we've got real connections.
> 

I did this ...

> To dial through ppp:
> 
> 	ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p /dev/eia1 -s $host:$pass
> 

I then got a term% prompt ... followed the next step ...

> and when it prompts you type
> 
> 	atdt0,5303333^M
> 
> where '^M' is the ctrl key plus the m key.  The
> 'at' interface needs real carriage returns.
> 
I waited for about a minute: Nothing happened. I never got
beyond this to the next step.

> After it's connected, just type
> 	^D
> 
> If that works, we can go on to debugging telco
> or, better yet, ignore it completely.

Bill

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[presotto]

Try it without telco at all.  Just dial the number through ppp.  We
can cross the telco bridge when we've got real connections.

To dial through ppp:

	ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p /dev/eia1 -s $host:$pass

and when it prompts you type

	atdt0,5303333^M

where '^M' is the ctrl key plus the m key.  The
'at' interface needs real carriage returns.

After it's connected, just type
	^D

If that works, we can go on to debugging telco
or, better yet, ignore it completely.

[9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[William Staniewicz]

Here is what I have done:

1.  Copied ppp.bod to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp
2.  % disk/kfscmd allow
3.  % chmod 777 ppp.bod
4.  % ppp.bod
        (Here, some info was provided telling me to use
        -X to extract.)
5.  % ppp.bod -X
        973778772/ppp.c: /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp/ppp.c is not
        the original distribution file
        (A directory was created but not sure if this comment
         is telling me the patch was applied successfully.)
6.  Into /rc/bin/termrc I put:
    host=myloginname
    pass=myISPpassword
7.  I added the IP numbers of my ISPs Domain Name Servers
    so that my /lib/ndb/local looks like:
    database=
            file=/lib/ndb/local
            file=/lib/ndb/common
    dns=195.121.1.34
8.  My ISPs server uses DYNAMIC IP numbers.
9.  % telco /dev/eia1
    (Is there a way to set this up at boot time?)
    (There is maybe a 5 sec. pause at this time then
     the prompt is displayed.)
10. % ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0,5303333 -s $host:$pass
    (Modem dials out, about a min later I hear it disconnect
     and the following is displayed.)
    *s*: *s*: *r*
    telco 181: suicide: sys: trap: fault read addr=0x24448900
    pc=0x24448900
    (The process stops here...)

I think I am close to a solution on this. I appreciate the
help I have been given to get to this point. Can anyone
suggest what to do next?

Bill

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Richard Miller]

> 2.  Your command to connect to Demon UK includes '$host:$pass' ,
>     Should I put my login name and password directly in the
>     command line here or somewhere else?

You can type them directly in the command line, or set them as
shell (rc) variables if you are calling ip/ppp in a script.

> Once I get the PAP solved, I hope
> to connect to the internet and get email working.

I don't know of a simple step-by-step guide for this; you will want
to look at ndb(6), listen(8), mail(1) and smtpd(6).

-- Richard

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[nigel]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 201 bytes --]

.bods are "bundles of diffs", or a form of patch used in 2nd edition Plan 9. The file
should be an rc script. Just run it to get a small amount of help on the arguments
needed to run it in anger.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2687 bytes --]

From: "William Staniewicz" <wstan@planet.nl>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:23:02 +0100
Message-ID: <20001111102302.A206@localhost.local>

Richard,

1.  How do I install the update you provided? Here is what I get:

% wrap/inst ppp.bod
archfs: reading archive: bad format
wrap/inst: no such package found

2.  Your command to connect to Demon UK includes '$host:$pass' ,
    Should I put my login name and password directly in the
    command line here or somewhere else?

I am using Plan9 as a standalone machine and have not configured
any network related items. Once I get the PAP solved, I hope
to connect to the internet and get email working. If you would
like to extend your reply to include those issues it would be
appreciated.

Bill


On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:01:12PM +0000, Richard Miller wrote:
> > I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
> > connect to my ISP with PAP?
> 
> Attached is an update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp (14 Oct version) to support
> PAP authentication.  Note that although PAP is less secure than CHAP
> (password is transmitted in cleartext), the specification says that
> servers which provide both must offer CHAP first.
> 
> The command I use to connect to Demon UK is:
> 
> % ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0845-212-0666 -s $host:$pass

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[William Staniewicz]

Richard,

1.  How do I install the update you provided? Here is what I get:

% wrap/inst ppp.bod
archfs: reading archive: bad format
wrap/inst: no such package found

2.  Your command to connect to Demon UK includes '$host:$pass' ,
    Should I put my login name and password directly in the
    command line here or somewhere else?

I am using Plan9 as a standalone machine and have not configured
any network related items. Once I get the PAP solved, I hope
to connect to the internet and get email working. If you would
like to extend your reply to include those issues it would be
appreciated.

Bill


On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:01:12PM +0000, Richard Miller wrote:
> > I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
> > connect to my ISP with PAP?
> 
> Attached is an update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp (14 Oct version) to support
> PAP authentication.  Note that although PAP is less secure than CHAP
> (password is transmitted in cleartext), the specification says that
> servers which provide both must offer CHAP first.
> 
> The command I use to connect to Demon UK is:
> 
> % ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0845-212-0666 -s $host:$pass

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Richard Miller]

Oops .. after applying the PAP update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp, you might want to
change the following line:

	netlog("PPP: pap: send authreq %d %s %s\n", c->id, ppp->chapname, ppp->secret);
to
	netlog("PPP: pap: send authreq %d %s %s\n", c->id, ppp->chapname, "****");


to prevent your ISP password from appearing in debugging output.

-- Richard

Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[Richard Miller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 474 bytes --]

> I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
> connect to my ISP with PAP?

Attached is an update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp (14 Oct version) to support
PAP authentication.  Note that although PAP is less secure than CHAP
(password is transmitted in cleartext), the specification says that
servers which provide both must offer CHAP first.

The command I use to connect to Demon UK is:

% ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0845-212-0666 -s $host:$pass

-- Richard


[-- Attachment #2: ppp.bod --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 4129 bytes --]

#!/bin/rc
#
# command: boddle /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp .
# srcdir: /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp
# version: 973778772
# date: Thu Nov 9 14:06:12 GMT 2000
#
myname=$0
doextract=no

fn usage{
  echo $myname: usage: $myname '[-X] [src-directory]' >[1=2]
  exit usage
}

fn sigint{
  rm -rf 973778772
  exit interrupt
}

while(~ $1 -*){
  switch($1){
  case -X
          doextract=yes
  case -*
          usage
  }
  shift
}

switch($#*){
case 0
  srcdir=/sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp
case 1
  srcdir=$1
case *
  usage
}

if(! ~ $doextract yes){
  echo This shell file contains a bundle of diffs representing changes
  echo to original source files in the Plan 9 distribution. It will run
  echo against the files in
  echo ' ' $srcdir
  echo '(unless overridden by the optional source directory argument)'
  echo and create a directory 973778772 containing the updated files.
  echo It will NOT automatically update the original files.
  echo
  echo Invoke with argument -X to perform the actual extraction.
  exit 0
}

rm -rf 973778772
mkdir 973778772

target=973778772/ppp.c
echo -n '973778772/ppp.c: '
if(! test -f $srcdir/ppp.c || ! test -r $srcdir/ppp.c){
  echo $srcdir/ppp.c unreadable
  exit unreadable
}
sum=`{sum < $srcdir/ppp.c}
if(! ~ 904fd29c49640  $sum(1)^$sum(2)){
  echo $srcdir/ppp.c is not the original distribution file
  exit original
}
cp $srcdir/ppp.c 973778772/ppp.c
sed s/.// <<'//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.c' | ed 973778772/ppp.c >/dev/null >[2=1] 
-1919a
-static void
-papinit(PPP *ppp)
-{
-	Block *b;
-	Lcpmsg *m;
-	Chap *c;
-	int len, nlen, slen;
-
-	c = ppp->chap;
-	c->id++;
-	netlog("PPP: pap: send authreq %d %s %s\n", c->id, ppp->chapname, ppp->secret);
-
-	nlen = strlen(ppp->chapname);
-	slen = strlen(ppp->secret);
-	len = 4 + 1 + nlen + 1 + slen;
-	b = alloclcp(Pauthreq, c->id, len, &m);
-
-	*b->wptr++ = nlen;
-	memmove(b->wptr, ppp->chapname, nlen);
-	b->wptr += nlen;
-	*b->wptr++ = slen;
-	memmove(b->wptr, ppp->secret, slen);
-	b->wptr += slen;
-	hnputs(m->len, len);
-	putframe(ppp, Ppasswd, b);
-	freeb(b);
-}
-
-static void
-getpap(PPP *ppp, Block *b)
-{
-	Lcpmsg *m;
-	int len;
-
-	m = (Lcpmsg*)b->rptr;
-	len = 4;
-	if(BLEN(b) < 4 || BLEN(b) < (len = nhgets(m->len))){
-		syslog(0, LOG, "short pap message (%ld < %d)", BLEN(b), len);
-		freeb(b);
-		return;
-	}
-	if(len < sizeof(Lcpmsg))
-		m->data[0] = 0;
-
-	qlock(ppp);
-	switch(m->code){
-	case Pauthack:
-		netlog("PPP: pap succeeded\n");
-		setphase(ppp, Pnet);
-		break;
-	case Pauthnak:
-		netlog("PPP: pap failed (%d:%.*s)\n", m->data[0], m->data[0], (char*)m->data+1);
-		dying = 1;
-	}
-	qunlock(ppp);
-	freeb(b);
-}
-.
-1415a
-		case Ppasswd:
-			getpap(ppp, b);
-			break;
-.
-942a
-			if(pap)
-				ppp->chap->proto = APpasswd;
-.
-799a
-				if(proto == Ppasswd && !server){
-					pap = 1;
-					continue;
-				}
-.
-754a
-	pap = 0;
-.
-738c
-	ulong rejecting, nacking, flags, proto, pap;
-.
-240a
-		else if(ppp->chap->proto == APpasswd)
-			papinit(ppp);
-.
-91a
-static	void		papinit(PPP*);
-static	void		getpap(PPP*, Block*);
-.
-wq
//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.c
sum=`{sum < 973778772/ppp.c}
if(~ 76e4eaf151025  $sum(1)^$sum(2))
  echo
if not{
  echo 973778772/ppp.c checksum error creating updated file
  exit checksum
}
target=973778772/ppp.h
echo -n '973778772/ppp.h: '
if(! test -f $srcdir/ppp.h || ! test -r $srcdir/ppp.h){
  echo $srcdir/ppp.h unreadable
  exit unreadable
}
sum=`{sum < $srcdir/ppp.h}
if(! ~ 386b09777989  $sum(1)^$sum(2)){
  echo $srcdir/ppp.h is not the original distribution file
  exit original
}
cp $srcdir/ppp.h 973778772/ppp.h
sed s/.// <<'//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.h' | ed 973778772/ppp.h >/dev/null >[2=1] 
-134a
-
-	/* Pap codes */
-	Pauthreq=	1,
-	Pauthack=	2,
-	Pauthnak=	3,
-.
-113a
-	APpasswd=	Ppasswd,		/* use Pap, not Chap */
-.
-wq
//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.h
sum=`{sum < 973778772/ppp.h}
if(~ b5120e548094  $sum(1)^$sum(2))
  echo
if not{
  echo 973778772/ppp.h checksum error creating updated file
  exit checksum
}

[9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?

[William Staniewicz]

I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
connect to my ISP with PAP?

I have read the manuals for ppp and con and telco
but cant seem to get logged on successfully.

I've tried,

	telco /dev/eia1
	con -l telco!5551212

		(this gets me dialed in, but not
		 logged on)

Also tried,

	ip/ppp -p /dev/eia1 -s myusername:password -t atdt5551212

		(The only thing this does is produce a clicking
		 sound as my modem responds. There is no dialtone
		 or anything else that follows)

/Bill
wstanREMOVETHIS@planet.nl