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* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-09  2:06 okamoto
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-10-09  2:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>Yep, PHOBOS would be better :-)

There must be Damos, too...



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-08 18:16 Sape Mullender
  2001-10-08 18:18 ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Sape Mullender @ 2001-10-08 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> > What is major difference between Amoeba and EROS?
> > 
> > Kenji
> 
> EROS is persistant.

Which makes a EROS a poor choice of name.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-05 17:12 Russ Cox
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-10-05 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> And it is important: it is kind of sterile to develop something as
> labor-intensive as an OS without knowing anything about the economic
> forces that determine how popular the thing will become.

Only if popularity is the primary goal.  All things being equal,
maybe I'd like there to be more Plan 9 users.  But all things
are not equal.  Given the choice between a simple and consistent
system like Plan 9 or a popular system like Windows or Linux,
I'll take Plan 9.

Russ



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-05  8:13 nigel
  2001-10-05 16:44 ` Richard
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: nigel @ 2001-10-05  8:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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>> the success rate compared with
>> proprietary OSes is rather good.  note that almost all proprietary
>> OSes have educated and experienced designers and implementors.
>>
I've a feeling that for every GPL'ed OS you can name which is successful,
I can name several non-GPL'ed ones. In fact, I can only think of one
successful GPLed OS...


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From: Richard <greon@best.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 00:40:45 -0700
Message-ID: <E15pPbB-0002yN-00@localhost>

nigel@9fs.org writes:

>>> also, EROS's GPLed.  I do not say that is an improvement, but 
>>> a GPLed OS has done very well lately in popularity.
>
>This is a bit self-fulfilling isn't it? How many GPL'ed OSes are there
>thay haven't become popular? We don't know, because they haven't
>become popular enough to get publicised.

there are many GPLed OSes, but most are written by teenagers or young
men with little education or experience.  among GPLed OSes with
competent designers and implementors, the success rate compared with
proprietary OSes is rather good.  note that almost all proprietary
OSes have educated and experienced designers and implementors.

I am thinking also about the abandonment of AmigaOS, OS/2 and (probably)
BeOS.  it must be frustrating to have written software for one of those
once-popular platforms only to see the owner of the platform let it die.
I speculate that proprietary OSes need to attract 10s of millions of
users or their owners let them die, but that open source OSes can
survive for decades with much fewer users.

the "fitness landscape" for OSes is quite harsh and severe because
of numerous "network effects".  "network effect" is a term from
economics that every computerist should understand.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-05  5:31 nigel
  2001-10-05  7:40 ` Richard
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: nigel @ 2001-10-05  5:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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>> also, EROS's GPLed.  I do not say that is an improvement, but 
>> a GPLed OS has done very well lately in popularity.

This is a bit self-fulfilling isn't it? How many GPL'ed OSes are there
thay haven't become popular? We don't know, because they haven't
become popular enough to get publicised.

I'm off to look for elephants with red toenails in cherry trees.


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From: Richard <greon@best.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:57:15 -0700
Message-ID: <E15pJvL-0002PD-00@localhost>

forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes:
>in what way(s) do "capa" and eros improve on
>(say) CAP or ten15?

let me append to my response.

past capa systems suffered from poor performance, I understand.  EROS's
designer thinks he can solve that problem, so that EROS's performance on
common tasks will approximate that of mainstream OSes.  I do not
understand most of what this guy says.  

also, EROS's GPLed.  I do not say that is an improvement, but 
a GPLed OS has done very well lately in popularity.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-05  4:00 okamoto
  2001-10-08 16:53 ` Maarit Maliniemi 
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-10-05  4:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

What is major difference between Amoeba and EROS?

Kenji



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-04 23:57 Richard
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Richard @ 2001-10-04 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes:
>in what way(s) do "capa" and eros improve on
>(say) CAP or ten15?

let me append to my response.

past capa systems suffered from poor performance, I understand.  EROS's
designer thinks he can solve that problem, so that EROS's performance on
common tasks will approximate that of mainstream OSes.  I do not
understand most of what this guy says.  

also, EROS's GPLed.  I do not say that is an improvement, but 
a GPLed OS has done very well lately in popularity.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-04 21:59 forsyth
  2001-10-04 23:29 ` Richard
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-10-04 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

in what way(s) do "capa" and eros improve on
(say) CAP or ten15?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea)
@ 2001-10-04 19:28 rog
  2001-10-04 20:27 ` Richard
  2001-10-04 20:33 ` Richard
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2001-10-04 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> the app must asks permission (from the OS, which
> then might ask the user) before doing anything significant to the user's
> software environment. 

surely that assumes that the user wouldn't just automatically accept
any reasonable-sounding request to open a file (i know i would,
especially if i had several hundred per day).

might it not be better just to use filterfs to make sure that an
application can't see the files i want to hide from it?  you could
even add an interface so that an application could request that a
certain file/filetree be made visible; that could even trigger a
request to the user if required.

capabilities (and ACLs) seem to me like they'd be a maintenance
nightmare. i can barely remember to chmod my personal files 600...

  rog.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] on the topic of viruses
@ 2001-09-28  1:06 dmr
  2001-10-01 16:13 ` permissions idea (Re: [9fans] on the topic of viruses) Matthew Hannigan
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: dmr @ 2001-09-28  1:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Thanks for the typo-correction for the URL:

http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/tdvirus.pdf

is indeed the correct current place.  I heard from Duff
that he's content to have it visible.

The topic is somewhat off-topic for Plan 9, but not
by too much, because similar schemes remain plausible
in Plan 9 systems.  Among the small changes to recent
filesystems/protocols is the transmission and maintenance
of a last-modifier UID for files--one of the minor but
useful diagnostic tools that help.

Gwyn's correct, by the way, that AT&T Federal Systems
did do System V/MLS certified to B1 or B2 or so.
This was independent of the McIlroy and Reeds work,
though I'm certain there was consultation.

	Dennis


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2001-10-09  2:06 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2001-10-09  2:06 [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea) okamoto
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2001-10-08 18:16 Sape Mullender
2001-10-08 18:18 ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-05 17:12 Russ Cox
2001-10-05  8:13 nigel
2001-10-05 16:44 ` Richard
2001-10-05  5:31 nigel
2001-10-05  7:40 ` Richard
2001-10-08  9:36   ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-05  4:00 okamoto
2001-10-08 16:53 ` Maarit Maliniemi 
2001-10-04 23:57 Richard
2001-10-04 21:59 forsyth
2001-10-04 23:29 ` Richard
2001-10-04 19:28 rog
2001-10-04 20:27 ` Richard
2001-10-04 20:33 ` Richard
2001-09-28  1:06 [9fans] on the topic of viruses dmr
2001-10-01 16:13 ` permissions idea (Re: [9fans] on the topic of viruses) Matthew Hannigan
2001-10-02  8:34   ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-10-04 18:36     ` [9fans] capability-based design (Re: permissions idea) Richard

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