From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Rant (was Re: Plan9 and Ada95?)
From: anothy@cosym.net
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Date: Thu,  8 Nov 2001 13:03:28 -0500
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// Well, let's see if we can agree: XML, GCC, X, C++, JAVA, Perl, off
// the cuff, have all drawn criticism on this list.

true. but i don't see that as a bad thing. what _would_ be bad would
be if Plan 9 did _not_ recieve criticism on this list, or if such criticism
was not listened to or addressed. i believe it is. all these things - your
list and Plan 9 - have problems, and we can only correct them by
addressing them.

// None of the criticism has addressed the social need, as you so
// eloquently explain in your example, to support these entities in
// some fashion or provide alternatives,

i'm not sure that's true. i agree there hasn't been much, if any, talk
about how to support XML or X. but there's been talk of and work on
importing GCC (thus C++) and Perl. further, note your own trailing
clause: "or provide alternatives." so we don't have X, and nobody's
working on getting it. why? because we've got an alternative we like
better, and nobody's shown reason to like X better. there's been a
little talk of getting Java going, but not much, because i think most
people who'd be interested in what it offers on this list consider us
to have an alternative we prefer: Limbo.

i think maybe there's a missing catagory in the discussion here:
interoperability tools. VNC is a great example, i think. what VNC
does for graphics is most definatly _not_ the Plan 9 graphics
model, but it's a very useful tool for talking to a diverse range of
systems. and we've got a vnc viewer. i think that suggests we (as a
community) do look at things from other places, and make the
cost/gain decision i keep harping on. there _are_ things of value
that come from other places, but getting them running locally has
some cost associated with it. each case is a seperate decision.

that being said, not everyone has to come to the _same_ conclusion
when such decisions are made. don't think the correct call was made
in ignoring a local X server? maybe you're right (i still consider that);
go do it. think a Java VM would give you things better than Inferno?
cool, import or build one. think Perl, or Python, or Ada is a good
development language/tool? wonderful, we eagerly anticipate your
results. i really think we do.

i don't think anyone'd be "mad" at you for importing X, or GCC, or
whatever. people might suggest it wasn't the best use of your time,
but that's their decision to make. luckily, you get to determine what
you do with your time, not they.

maybe we do get overly critical from time to time. maybe we do get
too set in our ways. but i still hold that to be the exception here, not
the rule. and i think we do okay at avoiding it.
ア