From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
Message-Id: <200403011915.i21JFw0P068107@adat.davidashen.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Threads: Sewing badges of honor onto a Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20040301190215.GA18554@localhost.localdomain>
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Date: Mon,  1 Mar 2004 23:15:58 +0400
Topicbox-Message-UUID: 07f65a40-eacd-11e9-9e20-41e7f4b1d025

> > Factory in Java is a simple concept, one more level of indirection.
>
> almost every concept in computing is about one or more levels of
> indirection.

Most concepts are more levels of indirections than one.
>
> > It is built to provide a cleaner and smaller alternative to C++;
>
> yes, but that's not saying much - almost every language in existence provides
> a cleaner and smaller alternative to c++.

Not every language is built to provide a smaller and cleaner alternative to a
successful one, and is successful. I would be glad to see limbo or Alef widely
used. They are not.

>
> > it offers very few concepts to learn 
>
> i guess that's why the language spec alone is a svelte 500 pages.

No. It is because the spec is written by people who come from culture of
detailed specifications; and it is because a part of the specification is
dedicated to binary compatibility, which few other languages provide.  Still
yet, the specification for Java, 504 pages, is SMALLER than specification for
ANSI/ISO C, which 554 pages.

> > -- and the extensive libraries are not meant to learn -- there are javadocs
> > for them. The core language and system
>
> not meant to learn?  do javadocs have an ESP mechanism built into them?

I do not know what is ESP. 

>
> > Parallel programming in Java is easy and natural, as easy and natural
> > as in other language or system or even easier, dare I say it.  You
> > just use threads, and use basic language features, such as variable
> > scopes, to have shared and private thread resources. No additional
> > flags and bits to remember; everything is easy and straightforward.
>
> no it isn't.  it's nowhere near as easy and natural as the limbo, alef,
> erlang etc. model for concurrent programming.  otoh, once you get used
> to it, everything looks easy and straightforward.

I wrote many thousands lines of code in C, Java, Perl, Scheme and Oberon. 
I used to do parallel programming in Modula-2. Parallel programming in model
is natural and straightforward, and it is an achievement of language designers
to come up with the model.

It is strange how often other systems are criticized for various features
on this list. Is it a part of plan9 culture? Is there a garbage-collecting
language with concepts for parallel programming born in Plan9 environment
which can be used with Plan9 to try out? 

David