[9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Ben Salzman]

Hi,

I've read a bit about Plan 9. It seems it is based on
ideas
of XML, isn't it? Both use a hierarchical structure
(tree)
for everything; 9p is very similar to XPath.

Is it just the same idea with a different syntax?

Ben S.

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Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Ben Salzman wrote:

> I've read a bit about Plan 9. It seems it is based on ideas of XML,
> isn't it? Both use a hierarchical structure (tree) for everything; 9p is
> very similar to XPath.

yes. I suggest you just keep using internet explorer.

ron

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Ben Salzman]

> for everything; 9p is
> > very similar to XPath.
> 
> yes. I suggest you just keep using internet
> explorer.
> 

Actually, I am using w3m; a nice
browser -- runs in a terminal window 
but with full graphics.

I tried to use internet explorer for inferno plugin,
but the plugin crashes often.

Ben S.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Michael Jeffrey]

> I tried to use internet explorer for inferno plugin,
> but the plugin crashes often.

What version of IE were you using?  I have experienced
no problems recently with the plug-in though I do know
that some aspects of the Vita Nuova demo grid have
been a little flaky (www.vitanuova.com/solutions/grid.html)
and might exhibit themselves as problems in the plug-in.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Geoff Collyer]

I think that hierarchical file systems are a form of Rorschach
ink-blot.  What a person sees in them tells us more about the person
than the idea.  In 1980, I was describing the Unix file system to a
supervisor who hadn't heard of it and he said `oh, it sounds like a
database system'.

When did the first hierarchical file system appear?  Multics?  CTSS?

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[David Tolpin]

> than the idea.  In 1980, I was describing the Unix file system to a
> supervisor who hadn't heard of it and he said `oh, it sounds like a
> database system'.

What is it if it is not a database? Your supervisor was a smart guy
back in 1980.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Bruce Ellis]

give me a break.  tell me how to do a join efficiently if
you are trying to treat any filesystem as a dataset.

of course a flat file is a database, but it suffers from
the same problem.  my junk room is a database
if you are willing to linear search it to do any data op.

brucee
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Tolpin" <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?


> > than the idea.  In 1980, I was describing the Unix file system to a
> > supervisor who hadn't heard of it and he said `oh, it sounds like a
> > database system'.
> 
> What is it if it is not a database? Your supervisor was a smart guy
> back in 1980.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[David Tolpin]

> give me a break.  tell me how to do a join efficiently if

join has never been efficient with hierarchical databases.

> you are trying to treat any filesystem as a dataset.

I am not trying to treat any filesystem as a dataset.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Bruce Ellis]

try and convince a generation of database researchers
that your first claim is right.

try and convince anyone that you can implement a
database without implicit datasets.

brucee
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Tolpin" <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?


> > give me a break.  tell me how to do a join efficiently if
> 
> join has never been efficient with hierarchical databases.
> 
> > you are trying to treat any filesystem as a dataset.
> 
> I am not trying to treat any filesystem as a dataset.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[dmr]

 > When did the first hierarchical file system appear?  Multics?  CTSS?

The first I saw was Multics.  CTSS was approximately 2-level,
perhaps with more than one root.

	Dennis

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[C H Forsyth]

> When did the first hierarchical file system appear?  Multics?  CTSS?

OS/360 had hierarchical names ca. 1964/5, although much
might depend on the interpretation of `appear', given that
system's troubled early history, and i recall someone telling me the
implementation was unusual.  Several groups seemed to be
implementing them about the same time.  None of my old books mention
who suggested it first, or indeed when Microsoft first got the patent.
I've got some more old books at the office, though.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[Geoff Collyer]

A google search turned up this claim at
http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca/comp112/notes/chapter5.html:

      Among the first such systems (if not the first) was MIT's CTSS
      (Corbató et. al) implemented on an IBM 7090.  This was also the
      first system to implement a hierarchical file store (i.e. one
      with directories - aka folders - and files with them)

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 577 bytes --]

I used CTSS in the 1971/72, my first year at MIT.  They gave undergrads spare
time accounts on any systems there.  It was at the end of its life, was way
overloaded, and ran on a 7094 that stuck around for quite a few years later.

It didn't have a hierarchical file system per se.  Just a single level of
directories.  I can't remember how you named an other user's directory
or even the system one.

Multics fixed that and added much more.

So, I went to see what I could find on the web...

	http://larch-www.lcs.mit.edu:8001/~corbato/turing91

is a nice read.

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From: Geoff Collyer <geoff@collyer.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:00:04 -0800
Message-ID: <378214d4b24f870a683cd4d88ea5b009@collyer.net>

A google search turned up this claim at
http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca/comp112/notes/chapter5.html:

      Among the first such systems (if not the first) was MIT's CTSS
      (Corbató et. al) implemented on an IBM 7090.  This was also the
      first system to implement a hierarchical file store (i.e. one
      with directories - aka folders - and files with them)

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[rog]

> A google search turned up this claim at
> http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca/comp112/notes/chapter5.html:

some interesting snippets there.

i particularly liked this throwaway line:
"...  a replica Colossus was completed ....  A Pentium was programmed
to perform the same task and Colossus was found to be just as fast."

shows the value of h/w acceleration, i guess.

Re: [9fans] is plan 9 based on XML?

[dmr]

 > CTSS didn't have a hierarchical file system per se.  Just a single level of
 > directories.  I can't remember how you named an other user's directory
 > or even the system one.

I recall it was just 2-level; a sort of root, plus user
directories (some of them associated with the system).

There was a scheme for linking which appears to be effectively
the same as a Unix symbolic link; the command was

 link name1 name2 prob prog [name3 [name4]]

which meant that what one might think of as name1.name2
in ones own directory would now refer to name3.name4
in the directory of person prog in group prob.
The prob&prog were things like t234 and 8038
which might approximate the one I had.
Permissions were checked at the time of making the
link.

Groups/probs had several "comfiles", directories shared among
a group.  There was a command to switch the current
directory to one of the group's comfile directories and
also to the system one.

In many ways the effect was analogous to the
one described in the early Unix history paper about
the PDP-7: names always referred to the current
directory, but links to others could be made.

 >Multics fixed that and added much more.

That's for sure.

	Dennis