[9fans] Native vs Emulated

[9fans] Native vs Emulated

[John Stalker]

In answer to an earlier question, I am running native on a Thinkpad
T23.  I am considering switching to running under Xen on the same
machine, but that would involve installing Linux.

By the way, I know that the School of Mathematics here had the
first UNIX system in Ireland.  I think the T23 refered to above
is the first p9 system in Ireland.  Does anyone know anything to
contradict this?
--
John Stalker
University of Dublin, Trinity College
School of Mathematics

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Stalker wrote:

> In answer to an earlier question, I am running native on a Thinkpad
> T23.  I am considering switching to running under Xen on the same
> machine, but that would involve installing Linux.

yeah, if p9 is native on your machine now, not much point in Xen unless
you need Linux for something ...

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[John Stalker]

> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Stalker wrote:
>
> > In answer to an earlier question, I am running native on a Thinkpad
> > T23.  I am considering switching to running under Xen on the same
> > machine, but that would involve installing Linux.
>
> yeah, if p9 is native on your machine now, not much point in Xen unless
> you need Linux for something ...
>
> ron

I've no particular need for Linux, but I would like to be able to
switch between a BSD and p9 without a reboot and to transfer
files without going through a DOS partition.  I also had an idea
of playing a bit with a p9 ``network'' on one machine.

John
--
John Stalker
University of Dublin, Trinity College
School of Mathematics

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, John Stalker wrote:

> I've no particular need for Linux, but I would like to be able to switch
> between a BSD and p9 without a reboot and to transfer files without
> going through a DOS partition.  I also had an idea of playing a bit with
> a p9 ``network'' on one machine.

then, it's handy. You can do a p9 network, you can run linux with BSD and
Plan 9 guests, and so on. Reduce linux to playing the role of device
driver layer.

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Russ Cox]

> then, it's handy. You can do a p9 network, you can run linux with BSD and
> Plan 9 guests, and so on. Reduce linux to playing the role of device
> driver layer.

for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
a simulation of three computers running three
different operating systems is no easier to
use than three actual computers running three
different operating systems (though it is admittedly
easier to carry around).  i found that the os-os
boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
unified whole.

russ

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Gorka Guardiola]

>> then, it's handy. You can do a p9 network, you can run linux with BSD and
>> Plan 9 guests, and so on. Reduce linux to playing the role of device
>> driver layer.
>
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
> a simulation of three computers running three
> different operating systems is no easier to
> use than three actual computers running three
> different operating systems (though it is admittedly
> easier to carry around).  i found that the os-os
> boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
> across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
> buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
> unified whole.


Well for debugging kernels it is really good...


						G.

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Brantley Coile]

> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
> a simulation of three computers running three
> different operating systems is no easier to
> use than three actual computers running three
> different operating systems (though it is admittedly
> easier to carry around).  i found that the os-os
> boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
> across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
> buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
> unified whole.
>
> russ

This was my experience as well.  I decided that multiple machines
glued together with Plan 9 was the easiest for me to deal with.
Multiple machines also removes the requirement for any one to do
everything.

  Brantley

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Russ Cox wrote:

> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast. a simulation of three
> computers running three different operating systems is no easier to use
> than three actual computers running three different operating systems
> (though it is admittedly easier to carry around).  i found that the
> os-os boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping across, with
> distinct file systems, desktops, snarf buffers, etc. attached to each
> one instead of a unified whole.

it has not proven to be a burden for me. I guess it just depends on what
you're trying to do.

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

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Being able to plumb to other hosts, while redirecting
mouse/keyboard helps a lot. Using a shared snarf, as
we do, helps even more.

We're not happy yet with
the way we're doing the net-plumb, but it's one of those things you
don't want to live without once you tried it.

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From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:59:04 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0503070858480.3728@enigma.lanl.gov>



On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Russ Cox wrote:

> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast. a simulation of three
> computers running three different operating systems is no easier to use
> than three actual computers running three different operating systems
> (though it is admittedly easier to carry around).  i found that the
> os-os boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping across, with
> distinct file systems, desktops, snarf buffers, etc. attached to each
> one instead of a unified whole.

it has not proven to be a burden for me. I guess it just depends on what
you're trying to do.

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:58:48 -0500 Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
> for me, the novelty of this wore off real fast.
> a simulation of three computers running three
> different operating systems is no easier to
> use than three actual computers running three
> different operating systems (though it is admittedly
> easier to carry around).  i found that the os-os
> boundaries were really frustrating to keep hopping
> across, with distinct file systems, desktops, snarf
> buffers, etc. attached to each one instead of a
> unified whole.

I'm a long-time user of vmware, and I'd agree with a lot of this.
Especially the comments about the inconveniences of os-os boundaries,
and "os-hopping".

On the other hand, I think this underestimates the advantages of
never having to partition a disk again, getting access to other
systems without having to dedicate a physical machine to them, and
being able to minimise the hardware that one has to administer (not
to mention, buy!).

Like all things, there are advantages and disadvantages, and it
depends on what you're doing, but virtual machines (almost?) always
seem to win over multi-booting - where the os-os boundaries are
much harder to overcome.

Martin

--
Martin C. Atkins			martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited		http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Martin C.Atkins wrote:

> On the other hand, I think this underestimates the advantages of never
> having to partition a disk again, getting access to other systems
> without having to dedicate a physical machine to them, and being able to
> minimise the hardware that one has to administer (not to mention, buy!).

And, there is the little matter of, e.g., running on a T41 with the
Atheros chipset, which only ships with binary drivers.

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Charles Forsyth]

>>And, there is the little matter of, e.g., running on a T41 with the
>>Atheros chipset, which only ships with binary drivers.

not only, but also (although i don't know whether what i see
will work on T41, not having one to test)

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Charles Forsyth wrote:

> not only, but also (although i don't know whether what i see
> will work on T41, not having one to test)

I couldn't parse this :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Charles Forsyth]

there is code in recompilable form that purports to drive the
Atheros chipset, though whether it works on T41 is unclear.

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[George Michaelson]

the X31 I am on in NetBSD has atheros drivers, which I think may be sam
leffler's work in both Free and NetBSD. It uses the binary only HAL code.

is there some codebase outside of the HAL stuff?

-G

---


$NetBSD$
$Id: README,v 1.2 2004/05/15 22:26:25 samleffler Exp $


WARNING: THIS IS A BETA DISTRIBUTION.  THIS SOFTWARE HAS KNOWN PROBLEMS AND
WARNING: LIMITATIONS THAT WILL BE CORRECTED BEFORE A PRODUCTION RELEASE.
WARNING: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!


Atheros Hardware Access Layer (HAL)
===================================

* Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Sam Leffler.
* Copyright (c) 2002-2004 Atheros Communications, Inc.
* All rights reserved.

Read the file COPYRIGHT for the complete copyright.

This code manages much of the chip-specific operation of the Atheros
driver. The HAL is provided in a binary-only form in order to comply with
FCC regulations.  In particular, a radio transmitter can only be operated
at power levels and on frequency channels for which it is approved.  The
FCC requires that a software-defined radio cannot be configured by a user
to operate outside the approved power levels and frequency channels.
This makes it difficult to open-source code that enforces limits on
the power levels, frequency channels and other parameters of the radio
transmitter.  See

http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/2001/fcc01264.pdf

for the specific FCC regulation.  Because the module is provided in a
binary-only form it is marked "Proprietary"; this means when you load
it you will see messages that your system is now "tainted".

If you wish to use this driver on a platform for which an ath_hal
module is not already provided please contact the author.  Note that
this is only necessary for new _architectures_; the HAL is not tied to
any specific version of your operating system.

	:
	:
	:

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[George Michaelson]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:16:02 -0700 (MST) "Ronald G. Minnich"
<rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:

>
>
>On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Charles Forsyth wrote:
>
>> not only, but also (although i don't know whether what i see
>> will work on T41, not having one to test)
>
>I couldn't parse this :-)
>
>ron

Not only, but also is a BBC comedy series of old with peter cook and dudley
moore.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/n/notonlybutalso_7774870.shtml

-George

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, George Michaelson wrote:

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/n/notonlybutalso_7774870.shtml
>

ah, now we have Charles in the dock for violating the EU's new Cultural
Neutrality in Humor Regulations. Charles, what can you say in your
defense? :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Charles Forsyth]

>>Not only, but also [was] a BBC comedy series ...

yes, that was the reference.
an episode is probably somewhere in p2p land.

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Andrew Simmons]

>an episode is probably somewhere in p2p land.


Sadly, the BBC wiped many of the tapes, but "The Best of What's Left of Not
Only But Also" is readily available on DVD, at least in NZ & presumably the
UK. For those old enough to remember, it includes the art gallery sketch
and the Thunderbirds spoof "SuperThunderStingCar" amongst others.

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:06:36 +1300 Andrew Simmons <andrew.simmons@monitorbm.co.nz> wrote:
>..
> Sadly, the BBC wiped many of the tapes,
>..

Not quite on par with the destruction of the library at Alexandria (circa 1 AD - there
seems to be some considerable dispute on the date), but this is getting close!

Martin

--
Martin C. Atkins			martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited		http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Gorka Guardiola]

> On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:06:36 +1300 Andrew Simmons <andrew.simmons@monitorbm.co.nz> wrote:
>>..
>> Sadly, the BBC wiped many of the tapes,
>>..
>
> Not quite on par with the destruction of the library at Alexandria (circa 1 AD - there
> seems to be some considerable dispute on the date), but this is getting close!
>


Hmm. Comparing a tv series with burning for example
Euclides works... this is too much for me.
A good account on the (known) history of the library is in:

http://www.bede.org.uk/Library2.htm

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:07:22 +0100 Gorka Guardiola <paurea@lsub.org> wrote:
>..
> Hmm. Comparing a tv series with burning for example
> Euclides works... this is too much for me.

I was comparing, if anything, the whole BBC archive cleanout, not
just one series. However, I should have put a smiley or two, or
three, and I totally agree on the different order of magnitude.

> A good account on the (known) history of the library is in:
> http://www.bede.org.uk/Library2.htm

Thanks for the great website! The Wikipaedia entry is also
interesting - there appears to be quite a lot of debate about many of
the details, which I guess is not so surprising. In fact, it often
surprises me how little debate there is about many historical
'facts'.

Martin

--
Martin C. Atkins			martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited		http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[George Michaelson]

I used to be a film fanatic. In York, I screened 'That was the week that
was' from the archive 16mm film the BBC lent out. They only had the reels,
because the legal department were convinced they would be sued and forced
the producers to film the show and hold offline in case they needed to
prove what was said on -air David Frost and Pete/Dud all had 'form' here
from Private Eye, and other stuff. it was made in the days of the profumo
affair still being fresh in the mind, so the threat was quite real.

Wonderful to get to play with the reels. Also (in a computing aware age)
truly scary they were available for loan. It was the 80s, I have no idea if
they still do this.

I suppose the yorkists online here will be able to say if that converted
church theatre arts centre is still open, over by bishopsgate I think.
Can't remember the name.

-George

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Steve Simon]

Contact Steve Roberts at the bbc - you can guess its email address) At the BBC,
he was responsible for the resurection of some "lost" DrWho eipsodes, he might
be interested in this too.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Steve Simon]

Hell, sorry, meant to be a private email

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated (OT)

[Leo Caves]

George said:

> I suppose the yorkists online here will be able to say if that
> converted
> church theatre arts centre is still open, over by bishopsgate I think.

Church of St John, on Micklegate.
The Arts Centre is now gone.
Last I heard, it was destined to be a restaurant... food for the soul?
Leo

Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated

[Skip Tavakkolian]

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No soup for you!

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From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net>
Cc: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Native vs Emulated
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:27:01 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0503081626170.7230@enigma.lanl.gov>



On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, George Michaelson wrote:

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/n/notonlybutalso_7774870.shtml
>

ah, now we have Charles in the dock for violating the EU's new Cultural
Neutrality in Humor Regulations. Charles, what can you say in your
defense? :-)

ron