[9fans] web apps

[9fans] web apps

[Christopher Nielsen]

web apps are usually not my area of programming interest, but
i've had some thoughts kicking around in my head from recent
discussions on 9fans.

i've been reading about AJAX and the like, and some of the
architectural ideas seem good, e.g., pushing interface stuff
into the browser and updating requests for data asynchronously.
makes sense and makes for snappier web apps.

i am not a huge fan of xml, and i've avoided javascript as much
as possible. that said, web applications aren't going away. why
not develop something using a similar architecture to AJAX but
using technologies that have a more elegant approach, e.g.,
s-expr, limbo, Plan 9/inferno? limbo already supports both xml
and s-exprs. xml can be defined using s-exprs. Plan 9 & inferno
are both cleaner, more efficient OSs.

the first question that comes to mind is how do you replace
javascript? does it make sense to write a limbo interpreter
plugin for browsers? does it make sense to design a better
language and write a plugin for that? is there something else
entirely?

just some thoughts kicking around my brain. i wanted to see if
anyone had any thoughts or comments.

Chris

-- 
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Sergey Zhilkin]

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Mybe write drawterm plugin ? :) Like Inferno plugin for IE. IMHO

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My internet2 (was Re: [9fans] web apps)

[Sascha Retzki]

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On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 11:41:15PM -0800, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> the first question that comes to mind is how do you replace
> javascript? does it make sense to write a limbo interpreter
> plugin for browsers? does it make sense to design a better
> language and write a plugin for that? is there something else
> entirely?
> 

I am thinking about, hacking and designing some replacement for this
entire §=)("§, but still using http at the moment.

The basic idea is that the index.html goes away and is replaced by a
file format which describes the structure of the entire page (thus
making "sitemap"-creation a semi-automagic process). This description
language tells which groups of files take which region of the screen,
etc.pp.

The second file format (these groups of files) are a "design"-language, 
some kind of (I hate to say that, but it describes it best)
Object-orientated language-approatch, so that you can e.g. create your
own button with the help of e.g. five commands, and make that button an
object. This language shall also support animations and all different
kind scriptability. The backend, e.g. database access, is done via CGI 
(cgi has never been wrong - it is just hell slow if you don't do it 
right (So is java, btw)).
The trick is to void Javascript for example. If you want to design a
homepage, graphically apealing, and still want to maintain availability
(or "compatibility") for disabled persons => today you are pretty f'ed.
If done right (and with respect to things that "the Web"(tm) has
discovered way too late), this file format may become pretty cool.


That is "my internet2", and currently it sucks a lot, but if anybody
feels to help me with specifying cool file formats/languages,
implementing those things and so on and so forth, email me. 


Mfg,


Sascha Retzki

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Nov 5, 2005, at 11:41 PM, Christopher Nielsen wrote:

> i've been reading about AJAX and the like, and some of the
> architectural ideas seem good, e.g., pushing interface stuff
> into the browser and updating requests for data asynchronously.
> makes sense and makes for snappier web apps.

Sun had this figured out in the late 1980s, although they didn't know  
it at the time: it was called NeWS.  (See, they even had a k33wl  
graffiti name for it.)

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Wes Kussmaul]

re Christopher Nielsen's observations about AJAX and pushing interface 
stuff into the browser and the like, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> Sun had this figured out in the late 1980s, although they didn't know  
> it at the time: it was called NeWS.  (See, they even had a k33wl  
> graffiti name for it.)

Many had it figured out, but they were the ones who understood what the 
Net was about.

To make the Net greppable by the masses, we needed to apply the page 
turning paradigm, i.e. the Web, i.e. don't be scared of the Internet, 
it's just a bunch of colorful brochures, nothing really interactive (scary)

Now that the masses have got it, have seen javascript etc. in action and 
are no longer (too) frightened by real interactivity, they are looking 
for what we had in the eighties. In this medium the distance between the 
bleeding edge and the masses is twenty "light" years.

So (to mix in one more metaphor) it's a jump ball all over again. The 
question to ask is not how the Web evolves but what follows the Web.

Remember when Gopher was the ultimate Internet domain, Gopher completed 
the Internet, nothing much would happen after Gopher? Here we are again.

This will be fun.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments 
to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) 
and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not 
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Re: [9fans] web apps

[grfgguvf]

On 11/6/05, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> as possible. that said, web applications aren't going away. why
> not develop something using a similar architecture to AJAX but
> using technologies that have a more elegant approach, e.g.,
> s-expr,

S-expressions are indeed more compact than XML but other than that
there isn't much difference.

> the first question that comes to mind is how do you replace
> javascript? does it make sense to write a limbo interpreter
> plugin for browsers? does it make sense to design a better
> language and write a plugin for that? is there something else
> entirely?

IMHO there is nothing wrong with JavaScript the language; it's
relatively well-designed. It's just abused a lot.


Looking at it from a distance, the current "AJAX" approach is not very
different from the original vision of Java: Creating portable
applications that can be downloaded from the net and execute on the
client host (communicating back to the server).
It's just based on already-established technologies/standards and is
thus is easier to adopt. The model inevitably seems like the future of
the "web".

This direction is, IMHO making web-servers the equivalent of
file/cpu-servers in Plan9; and web-browsers the (somewhat) equivalent
of a Plan9 terminal's kernel:
AJAX: the browser downloads the .html, .js, .css, .gif, ... via HTTP
-> Plan9: the terminal downloads the kernel via TFTP and configures it's network
   via BOOTP
AJAX: the user authenticates and the server sets a cookie in the browser
-> Plan9: the user authenticates and the terminal connects to the file-server
   via 9P
AJAX: the client-side "AJAX engine"[1] loads the main UI (download
some .xml files
 via HTTP, inject them into the DOM). The browser may cache the HTTP requests.
-> Plan9: the terminal boots, loading files from the file-server.
Requests may be
   cached if cfs is used.
[...]
AJAX: the user types in a mail into an <input> box, possibly with some wiki-like
 markup or JavaScript "rich-text editing"
-> Plan9: the user types in a mail to Acme,
AJAX: he pushes the [Send] button, the "AJAX engine" sends an .xml to the
 server in a HTTP POST request
-> Plan9: the user clicks on Put and the kernel writes the file to the
file-server
   via 9P
[The user may now close the browser/switch off the terminal...]

As you see, AJAX lends most of it's power from the use of XmlHttpRequest's.
You may think: But there is a lot more than that to it. Well, we are
special; I believe the "average user" spends 98% of their computer
time in the browser and the office suite. And "office" could easily be
replaced with an AJAX-based application, in fact Microsoft is already
working on something called Office Live[tm].

I wouldn't be surprised if, in some years, all the bloat below the
browser which we call operating system would become pretty much
useless... What does the future hold? Possibly the the essential parts
of consumer OS's will be integrated into the browser which will be
able to run on bare hardware (think handhelds...). A similar trend is
possible for server OS's, now they are almost only used to run the
httpd[2].

[1]: The "AJAX engine" is essentially a JavaScript application running
in the browser
 modifying the DOM and communicating with the HTTP
  server (via XmlHttpRequest's)
[2]: V2_OS was possibly the most famous attempt at a httpd which runs on bare
 hardware

-- VARGA Peter

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> So (to mix in one more metaphor) it's a jump ball all over again. The 
> question to ask is not how the Web evolves but what follows the Web.

9P should be the universal currency.  maybe we need to implement styx
or 9p in javascript ☺

the backend service should deal with namespace that the user front end
is providing.  maybe the effort should be to come up with "Patterns"
for namespaces that make sense for various services.  A few things are
already figured out, like draw, window system (e.g. rio), lego clock,
some aspects of grid, etc.

to me things like AJAX are different facets of SOAP a.k.a
CORBA-over-HTTP/XML.

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Wes Kussmaul]

Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>>So (to mix in one more metaphor) it's a jump ball all over again. The 
>>question to ask is not how the Web evolves but what follows the Web.
> 
> 
> 9P should be the universal currency.  maybe we need to implement styx
> or 9p in javascript ☺
> 
> the backend service should deal with namespace that the user front end
> is providing.  maybe the effort should be to come up with "Patterns"
> for namespaces that make sense for various services.  A few things are
> already figured out, like draw, window system (e.g. rio), lego clock,
> some aspects of grid, etc.
> 
> to me things like AJAX are different facets of SOAP a.k.a
> CORBA-over-HTTP/XML.

Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.

				Goethe

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments 
to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) 
and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not 
the intended recipient, please notify attorney Mort Hapless at Vulner, 
Exposed & Wideopen LLP immediately at either (781) 647-7178, or at 
ohoh@vulex.com, and destroy all copies of this message and any 
attachments. No, really. Really. Listen, we mean it! Hey, if you don’t 
stop reading that confidential stuff about our client you’re in big 
trouble. OK, we’re the ones in trouble but we’ll find a way to go after 
you, or at least we think we may be able to. Look, we’re begging you. 
Just click the delete button and move on to a message that concerns you, 
OK? Please?? We'll buy you lunch...

Identity is the Foundation of Security™. Let The Village Group 
(village.com) ensure that only intended recipients receive your 
confidential messages.

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Charles Forsyth]

> I wouldn't be surprised if, in some years, all the bloat below the
> browser which we call operating system would become pretty much
> useless... What does the future hold? Possibly the the essential parts
> of consumer OS's will be integrated into the browser which will be
> able to run on bare hardware (think handhelds...).

all you've really done by that is turn the browser into the operating system;
just one that's even less-well designed (let alone implemented) than usual!

all that tells me is that people's expectations from their computer
systems remain depressingly low, and a horde of script kiddies
quoting penguins can shout down dijkstra.

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Wes Kussmaul]

Charles Forsyth wrote:
>>Possibly the the essential parts
>>of consumer OS's will be integrated into the browser which will be
>>able to run on bare hardware (think handhelds...).
> 
> all you've really done by that is turn the browser into the operating system;
> just one that's even less-well designed (let alone implemented) than usual!
> 
Why must we assume that there will continue to be something called a 
"browser"?


-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments 
to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) 
and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not 
the intended recipient, please notify attorney Mort Hapless at Vulner, 
Exposed & Wideopen LLP immediately at either (781) 647-7178, or at 
ohoh@vulex.com, and destroy all copies of this message and any 
attachments. No, really. Really. Listen, we mean it! Hey, if you don’t 
stop reading that confidential stuff about our client you’re in big 
trouble. OK, we’re the ones in trouble but we’ll find a way to go after 
you, or at least we think we may be able to. Look, we’re begging you. 
Just click the delete button and move on to a message that concerns you, 
OK? Please?? We'll buy you lunch...

Identity is the Foundation of Security™. Let The Village Group 
(village.com) ensure that only intended recipients receive your 
confidential messages.

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good evening.

On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 21:51:14 -0500
Wes Kussmaul <wes@village.com> wrote:

> > to me things like AJAX are different facets of SOAP a.k.a
> > CORBA-over-HTTP/XML.
> 
> Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
> Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
> 
> 				Goethe

Idiotic things can be talked often
Can also be written.
Will not kill your body or soul.
Everything will be the same.

Idiotic things in front of your eyes
Have a magic right.
Because they bound your senses,
will the mind be a menial.

-- Johann W. v. Goethe; Faust I.

(bad translation from German)

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] web apps

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

Christoph Lohmann wrote:
> Good evening.
> 
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 21:51:14 -0500
> Wes Kussmaul <wes@village.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>to me things like AJAX are different facets of SOAP a.k.a
>>>CORBA-over-HTTP/XML.
>>
>>Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
>>Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
>>
>>				Goethe
> 
> 
> Idiotic things can be talked often
> Can also be written.
> Will not kill your body or soul.
> Everything will be the same.
> 
> Idiotic things in front of your eyes
> Have a magic right.
> Because they bound your senses,
> will the mind be a menial.
> 
> -- Johann W. v. Goethe; Faust I.
> 
> (bad translation from German)

"I hate long quotes"

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>>>>to me things like AJAX are different facets of SOAP a.k.a
>>>				Goethe

rename AJAX to Faust
			- Goethe (not)

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Victor Nazarov]

Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

>
> On Nov 5, 2005, at 11:41 PM, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
>
>> i've been reading about AJAX and the like, and some of the
>> architectural ideas seem good, e.g., pushing interface stuff
>> into the browser and updating requests for data asynchronously.
>> makes sense and makes for snappier web apps.
>
>
> Sun had this figured out in the late 1980s, although they didn't know  
> it at the time: it was called NeWS.  (See, they even had a k33wl  
> graffiti name for it.)
>
> --lyndon
>
Is there any links/papers about this sistem?
--
Victor Nazarov
http://vir.comtv.ru/

Re: [9fans] web apps

[Moritz Kiese]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Victor Nazarov wrote:

> Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Nov 5, 2005, at 11:41 PM, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
>> 
>>> i've been reading about AJAX and the like, and some of the
>>> architectural ideas seem good, e.g., pushing interface stuff
>>> into the browser and updating requests for data asynchronously.
>>> makes sense and makes for snappier web apps.
>> 
>> 
>> Sun had this figured out in the late 1980s, although they didn't know  it 
>> at the time: it was called NeWS.  (See, they even had a k33wl  graffiti 
>> name for it.)
>> 
>> --lyndon
>> 
> Is there any links/papers about this sistem?

http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/lang/NeWS.html

++mbk