[Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [9fans] acme + mh]]

[Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [9fans] acme + mh]]

[Ronald G Minnich]

 >Could you elaborate?  You need to use Put rather than Save to create a
 >`folder' (alternate mailbox); is that your objection?  You should be
 >able to create hierarchies too; though I have done only a very limited
 >form of this.


ok, Geoff, I decided to do this as a naive mail user, which for the most 
part I am anyway.

So I look at a message. it is /mail/fs/mbox/9 or some such. I go to the 
tag bar and change it to /mail/fs/mbox/plan9/9.

Of course it fails, as expected, but the question is, what DO you do?

I tried this too
mkdir -p $home/mail/plan9
then, in the tag bar, change
/mail/fs/mbox/9
to
/usr/rminnich/mail/plan9/9
and Put does ... nothing.

So, I see a few problems here:
- I don't want to name the messages or worry about their number
- or fool with retyping the name in the tag bar

What I want is to somehow point at a message, click on something in the 
tag bar, then click on a folder in another window, and have the message 
move. This is another class of Delete, in some sense: Deletemsg and move 
it too. So the (deleted) tag could actually become a (folder) tag, and 
(deleted) could be a folder too. Then Put would do all the refiling for 
me. This just occurred to me, now I gotta go look at Mail source and see 
if it is comprehensible enough for me to do it :-)

Acme mail is an interesting foundation for a mailer, but it won't cut it 
for people I am trying to show Plan 9. At the same time, I like its 
simplicity, and still think it has a more sensible feel than (e.g.) 
tundrabird, the Super-Mailer of the Future.

thanks

ron

[9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> So I look at a message. it is /mail/fs/mbox/9 or some such. I go to the 
> tag bar and change it to /mail/fs/mbox/plan9/9.

All you have to do to save the message somewhere
is type extra text in the tag after the "Save " and then 
execute it.  I save spam that has made its way into
my inbox by typing spam next to Save and then executing
"Save spam".

If you want a hierarchy, create directories under
/mail/box/rminnich and then use Save a/b/c.

I'm not sure what Geoff was trying to say, but you can't
use Put usefully in any acme mail window except the
main one (to actually delete messages marked as
deleted).

> What I want is to somehow point at a message, click on something in the 
> tag bar, then click on a folder in another window, and have the message 
> move. 

That's interesting but not how things are done in acme.
You're trying to push the drag-and-drop metaphor into
places where it was not intended.  I'm not claiming your
approach is worse; it's just not the way things are typically
done in acme.

I note that your approach requires having some other window
with a list of folders.  Typing next to Save does not.

> Acme mail is an interesting foundation for a mailer, but it won't cut it 
> for people I am trying to show Plan 9. At the same time, I like its 
> simplicity, and still think it has a more sensible feel than (e.g.) 
> tundrabird, the Super-Mailer of the Future.

I am not convinced.

If they want Thunderbird, they know where to find it.

I have been using acme mail again for the past week
or so, and it's really nice to be back, especially after
the drag-and-drop clumsiness of most mailers.  

I am running a new upas/fs and a slightly-changed 
version of acme mail.  In my setup (though not in the
standard one - yet), Save goes through upas/fs, so
that in fact all my mail - incoming and saved - is kept
on the mail server.  It doesn't matter whether I Save on
my laptop or on my desktop.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Ronald G Minnich]

Russ Cox wrote:

> That's interesting but not how things are done in acme.
> You're trying to push the drag-and-drop metaphor into
> places where it was not intended.  

hmm, I wasn't really after drag and drop.

But let me try again.

Could I sweep out a section of the main mail window, do a
|filter
in the tag line, and then end up with the messages marked with where 
they will be filtered to, in ()? i.e. (9fans)- in front of a message, 
(deleted)- in front of others, and so on. Then all I do is a Put and 
things get filed.

Then I could build up my rules bit by bit, to the point that I can read 
mail, and just file it as needed.

I would rather read and file, rather than have some filter auto-file and 
then I read from lots of different places. But that's me. Lots of people 
I know want it filed before they read it.


> I note that your approach requires having some other window
> with a list of folders.  Typing next to Save does not.

Agreed. At the same time, I have about 100 folders, and don't always 
remember them all. A list can be useful.

> I have been using acme mail again for the past week
> or so, and it's really nice to be back, especially after
> the drag-and-drop clumsiness of most mailers.  

I'm pretty sick of drag and drop. But I need an interface that lets me 
filter a lot of mail fast.

> 
> I am running a new upas/fs and a slightly-changed 
> version of acme mail.  In my setup (though not in the
> standard one - yet), Save goes through upas/fs, so
> that in fact all my mail - incoming and saved - is kept
> on the mail server.  It doesn't matter whether I Save on
> my laptop or on my desktop.
> 

neat. I've tried to do something like this with the linux mailers and 
it's a bit of a pain -- when you can do it at all.

Also, our mail allocation at LANL is ONE GB -- I can't fit there.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[David Leimbach]

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>
>
> I'm pretty sick of drag and drop. But I need an interface that lets me
> filter a lot of mail fast.
>
And for years I thought the "Dragon Drop" was something you'd see in
professional wrestling.


Ok that's probably not good enough for the fortunes file.

Dave

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Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Dan Cross]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 03:37:01PM -0800, David Leimbach wrote:
> Ok that's probably not good enough for the fortunes file.

Nothing is good enough for the fortune file!  I have posted witticisms to
9fans for years, and have yet to see anything come of it!

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[George Michaelson]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:22:05 -0500
Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 03:37:01PM -0800, David Leimbach wrote:
> > Ok that's probably not good enough for the fortunes file.
> 
> Nothing is good enough for the fortune file!  I have posted
> witticisms to 9fans for years, and have yet to see anything come of
> it!

oh, that is DEFINITELY good enough for the fortunes file..

<recurse...>

-G

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Steve Simon]

Too slow

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Charles Forsyth]

> Nothing is good enough for the fortune file!  I have posted witticisms to
> 9fans for years, and have yet to see anything come of it!

i think you first must have a few letters published in The Times.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Dan Cross]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 09:41:57AM +0000, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> > Nothing is good enough for the fortune file!  I have posted witticisms to
> > 9fans for years, and have yet to see anything come of it!
> 
> i think you first must have a few letters published in The Times.

Of London or of New York?

But it appears that my dry spell is over.  I've been vindicated!

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> > Nothing is good enough for the fortune file!  I have posted witticisms to
>> > 9fans for years, and have yet to see anything come of it!
>> 
>> i think you first must have a few letters published in The Times.
> 
> Of London or of New York?

It has to be Times of London.  Getting into the NY Times is much easier than
the fortune file; just ask Judy Miller and Jayson Blair.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[geoff]

> I'm not sure what Geoff was trying to say, but you can't use Put
> usefully in any acme mail window except the main one (to actually
> delete messages marked as deleted).

Actually you can use it with an absolute path (e.g., `Put
/usr/geoff/stuff.m'), but you're right, it doesn't do anything useful
with a relative path, to my slight surprise.  I guess I'd expected it
to work like Save, except that it would create a non-existent file
first, instead of complaining (which seems to be the difference if you
supply an absolute path).

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> Actually you can use it with an absolute path (e.g., `Put
> /usr/geoff/stuff.m'), but you're right, it doesn't do anything useful
> with a relative path, to my slight surprise.  I guess I'd expected it
> to work like Save, except that it would create a non-existent file
> first, instead of complaining (which seems to be the difference if you
> supply an absolute path).

This works only because the Put message is being handed
back to acme, which is executing it internally.  Thus the
window contents, not the underlying message, gets written
to the named file.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Brian L.Stuart]

> All you have to do to save the message somewhere
> is type extra text in the tag after the "Save " and then 
> execute it.

That reminds me of a slight annoyance with the saved
mail.  It's stored in mbox format and the parser for the
mbox files just takes any line starting with From as the
beginning of a new message.  So if it happens that you
save a message that just happens to have a line that
begins a new sentence starting with the word From, then
when when you B2 on "Mail foo" for mailbox foo, you end
up with some extra messages in the list as it splits  those
with lines starting with From.  I keep intending to do
something about it and post a patch, but my supply of
round tuits keep getting allocated to other things.  If
anyone else is messing with acme mail, that'd be a
nice one to fix.

Brian L. Stuart

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> with lines starting with From.  I keep intending to do
> something about it and post a patch, but my supply of
> round tuits keep getting allocated to other things.  If
> anyone else is messing with acme mail, that'd be a
> nice one to fix.

The upas/fs raw file should probably be more consistent
about quoting From.  

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[C H Forsyth]

>>beginning of a new message.  So if it happens that you
>>save a message that just happens to have a line that
>>begins a new sentence starting with the word From, then

is that on plan 9 or unix?

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Brian L.Stuart]

> >>beginning of a new message.  So if it happens that you
> >>save a message that just happens to have a line that
> >>begins a new sentence starting with the word From, then
> 
> is that on plan 9 or unix?

Plan 9.  Another round tuit I'm missing is the one that will
allow me to set up acme mail on UNIX.

Brian L. Stuart

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Richard Miller]

>> >>beginning of a new message.  So if it happens that you
>> >>save a message that just happens to have a line that
>> >>begins a new sentence starting with the word From, then
>> 
>> is that on plan 9 or unix?
> 
> Plan 9.

Strange -- on my Plan 9 system, upas has code to deal with this:

  /sys/src/cmd/upas/common/appendfiletombox.c:70,131

and it seems to work for me.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> Strange -- on my Plan 9 system, upas has code to deal with this:
> 
>   /sys/src/cmd/upas/common/appendfiletombox.c:70,131
> 
> and it seems to work for me.

acme mail doesn't use this.

russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[quanstro]

it wouldn't be the raw file if it quoted the from line.

i've been thinking that an intermediate file may need to exist.
one with all the character set translations done and the 
transfer encodings removed.

moving to a mail directory format (any one with 1 email per file)
may also be a good idea.

- erik

On Mon Feb 20 11:21:48 CST 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
> > with lines starting with From.  I keep intending to do
> > something about it and post a patch, but my supply of
> > round tuits keep getting allocated to other things.  If
> > anyone else is messing with acme mail, that'd be a
> > nice one to fix.
> 
> The upas/fs raw file should probably be more consistent
> about quoting From.  
> 
> Russ
> 

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[C H Forsyth]

> moving to a mail directory format (any one with 1 email per file)
> may also be a good idea.

that's what upas/fs gives you.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[quanstro]

however, ned/acme currently save email in mbox format, thus
requiring the From quoting.

- erik

On Mon Feb 20 12:11:30 CST 2006, forsyth@vitanuova.com wrote:
> > moving to a mail directory format (any one with 1 email per file)
> > may also be a good idea.
> 
> that's what upas/fs gives you.
> 

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

I looked into this.  Whenever mail is delivered on Plan 9,
any embedded From lines are quoted with an extra leading
space.

The upas/fs raw and rawunix files show the raw disk format
(the rawunix one includes a leading From line), which 
includes the quoting.  Arguably the raw file should not quote
embedded From lines, but rawunix definitely should.  

The formatted body file should remove the leading space but
it does not.  No one has ever cared enough.

Acme mail just copies the unixheader and raw files into the
new mailbox.  It should be using rawunix, but I'm sure rawunix
came after the acme mail code.

All this applies to Plan 9 mail delivery.  The imap4 and pop3
pieces of upas/fs do not quote From lines in downloaded 
message bodies, and that inconsistency is the problem in
this case.  The fix is to make pop3 and imap4 quote From lines
in their message bodies (pretty easy in both cases) just like
upas/fs will find in regular Plan 9 mail boxes.

Separately, one might be motivated to try to unquote From
lines in the raw and body files. 

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[uriel]

This has been discussed before, but why not just drop the BSD mbox
format and use maildir or a similar format?  it will make this and
many other problems go away or at the very least much easier to deal
with.

Using venti directly for mail storage also sounds like it might be an
interesting option.

But IMHO the maildir-style storage is the best idea for now.

uriel


> I looked into this.  Whenever mail is delivered on Plan 9,
> any embedded From lines are quoted with an extra leading
> space.
> 
> The upas/fs raw and rawunix files show the raw disk format
> (the rawunix one includes a leading From line), which 
> includes the quoting.  Arguably the raw file should not quote
> embedded From lines, but rawunix definitely should.  
> 
> The formatted body file should remove the leading space but
> it does not.  No one has ever cared enough.
> 
> Acme mail just copies the unixheader and raw files into the
> new mailbox.  It should be using rawunix, but I'm sure rawunix
> came after the acme mail code.
> 
> All this applies to Plan 9 mail delivery.  The imap4 and pop3
> pieces of upas/fs do not quote From lines in downloaded 
> message bodies, and that inconsistency is the problem in
> this case.  The fix is to make pop3 and imap4 quote From lines
> in their message bodies (pretty easy in both cases) just like
> upas/fs will find in regular Plan 9 mail boxes.
> 
> Separately, one might be motivated to try to unquote From
> lines in the raw and body files. 
> 
> Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> This has been discussed before, but why not just drop the BSD mbox
> format and use maildir or a similar format?  it will make this and
> many other problems go away or at the very least much easier to deal
> with.

The fixes I mentioned are about 11 lines of code - one for pop3 and
ten for imap4.  I am not aware of the many other problems that you
refer to.  I do know that you're not going to implement maildir in 11 lines.

> But IMHO the maildir-style storage is the best idea for now.

IMHO you are suffering from CADT syndrome, without the usual
associated work.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

> Using venti directly for mail storage also sounds like it might be an
> interesting option.

Better have a good spam filter in that case.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Richard Miller]

> The formatted body file should remove the leading space

How can you tell that the leading space wasn't in the original
mail?  The sender might have written an indented paragraph
beginning with From.

The From-quoting transformation is not invertible, so it's
best not to try to invert it.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> The From-quoting transformation is not invertible, so it's
> best not to try to invert it.

That's not true.  Upas quotes any line matching / *From / with
an extra leading space.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Richard Miller]

> That's not true.  Upas quotes any line matching / *From / with
> an extra leading space.

Sorry, I should learn to check facts before posting.

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[quanstro]

s/mime and pgp email dislike it when the body is changed.
this isn't something i've used extensively so i don't know how
much of a problem this might be.

would it be better of the raw file remained an exact
representation of the original mail?

perhaps a new file (say "mbox") could keep the email edited enough
to maintain from quoting and anything else require for mbox
compatability.

- erik

On Mon Feb 20 13:53:16 CST 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
> > This has been discussed before, but why not just drop the BSD mbox
> > format and use maildir or a similar format?  it will make this and
> > many other problems go away or at the very least much easier to deal
> > with.
> 
> The fixes I mentioned are about 11 lines of code - one for pop3 and
> ten for imap4.  I am not aware of the many other problems that you
> refer to.  I do know that you're not going to implement maildir in 11 lines.
> 

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[Russ Cox]

> s/mime and pgp email dislike it when the body is changed.
> this isn't something i've used extensively so i don't know how
> much of a problem this might be.
> 
> would it be better of the raw file remained an exact
> representation of the original mail?

there is a difference between the in-memory representation
and the representation presented by the "raw" file. 
i agree - the raw file should present the raw message bytes,
with no indenting of from lines.  however, the internal
representation used by upas/fs does indent from lines,
and the pop3 and imap4 code in upas/fs needs to convert
the downloaded messages into that representation for
consistency with the rest of the system.

and upas/fs needs to process that representation to present
the "raw" file.

this is exactly what i said two or three messages ago.

russ

Re: [9fans] Re: acme mail

[quanstro]

you could run your own imap server.
mdir support is planned.

- erik

On Mon Feb 20 17:26:12 CST 2006, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote:
> Russ Cox wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I am running a new upas/fs and a slightly-changed 
> > version of acme mail.  In my setup (though not in the
> > standard one - yet), Save goes through upas/fs, so
> > that in fact all my mail - incoming and saved - is kept
> > on the mail server.  It doesn't matter whether I Save on
> > my laptop or on my desktop.
> > 
> 
> neat. I've tried to do something like this with the linux mailers and 
> it's a bit of a pain -- when you can do it at all.
> 
> Also, our mail allocation at LANL is ONE GB -- I can't fit there.
> 
> ron