Re: [9fans] missing applications

[Harri Haataja <harriha@mail.student.oulu.fi>]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 11:25:03PM +0200, Sascha Retzki wrote:
> > - Good tiling window management. I won't go back to handling any window
> >   borders with a mouse.
>
> Hm, I find that one a bit funny. I actually enjoy that - maybe I
> missed the latest news in the control-windows-with-vi-like-keys
> technologies(tm) (yeah I tried wmi once)?

> A full-screen button is the only thing that I miss sometimes. Pressing a key and acme is fullscreen ;)

So you don't really know and you tried one of the worse (despite the
9technology inside) ones. Like I said, I won't go back. A lot of others
I know won't either. It seems to have that effect.

The point is that the window manager will do the window management and I
simply don't.  There's nothing to do once it's running. Except select
the window you want, the workspace you want and pop-up/down any
temporary ones. I *never* in my life want to move or resize another
window. I hate it. I will never have a window (partially) obscured by
another one. I switch contexts with practically zero delay and I don't
need to look for the mouse, pointer or try to move anything out of the
way. Ever. I love that.

Full-screen for *any* frame and back again (except in wmii) is of course
included. As may be workspaces where frames are shuffled dynamically and
workspaces that fit legacy wimp apps by providing a space upon which
windows hover and can be arranged at will. By mouse.

> A mouse is a damn intuitiv interface as it behaves pretty much like a
> single finger. imho

All you can do is point and grunt (click). I'll take the expressive
command language instead. I don't want to communicate with a finger if I
can avoid it. Not even with a machine. But that's an old flame war.

> > - Threaded news & mail reader(s).
> Those always confused me - I hate it.

And in most places, you'd get the option of not selecting that or
turning it off. Just set sort by date instead of thread. Nice two keys
in mutt, I often eg sort spam folders by subject to get through piles of
identical ones quickly.

Oh, this spans another feature. Select by some criteria. I often have a
long line of mail and I want to read a single thread. So I can limit the
view to a certain subject for example. I won't drift off to another
thread and the broken followups (so common with 9fans) will not appear
who knows where, but all in one place.

But yes, choice. Maybe that is the only thing missing. I believe people
are different and hav different needs (even if they could some how be
re-educated to some superior ideal another human has cooked up).
Naturally there's good reason in keeping the kitchen sink out, but the
other extreme is as bad. There's also probably no universal agreement on
what balance point in between is best.

> > - Perhaps something like tor,
> I did not check, but I guess they just enculapse a e.g. TCP/IP-paket
> into $something? Sounds like a /net-like fs can do the trick then.

I also ignored the content of that sentence, so a stock reply:
Again, not for any other system than plan9.

> > a filtering proxy,
> What's that? Squid? What do you filter? What protocol? Pakets or
> content of pakets?

Mostly ads away from web pages, obnoxious javascript, information leaks
in browsers. Privoxy is often used together with tor
(http://tor.eff.org) so that just sort of came out. I can do without and
I'm sure that without a (mammoth) browser it's not much of an issue.

> Paket filtering is your last security wall - proper updates, an
> infrastructure with security in mind etc are the first things to be
> done. Furthermore, as you statted, Plan9 ain't really work as a
> 'router' (no NAT etc) in an environment where you need such thing.
> Anyway, I agree paket filtering would be usefull.

Naturally. This was one of the things that would allow it to be snuck
into servers. Routers and firewalls are often standalone. Having an
obscure small system as one is also a benefit.

> > Outside that, good terminal emulation with ssh would be one bridge
> > I'm not sure that is available.
>
> vt(1) works for me(tm). Okay, I just occassionally edit config files
> with vi and normally just use vt and ssh to shut machines down ;)

Once you get that far, it probably does. If you're hanging on to some
odd legacy programs, it might not. YMMV. Another sort of sneak-in
helping feature.


The first paragraph in my original was intended as a sort of disclaimer
or warning. I don't want to blame or change plan9 per se. I'm happy it
exists and don't mind if it keeps on existing where it is. But it would
be nice if it made it into more places in one form or another.

Personally I might or might not use it either way. I'll probably like it
for many things any way. And I don't imagine my needs or opinions have
any leverage. But if anyone happens to want to hear of a different look
at things (as mine probably is compared to many), I can probably provide
some of that.

So, these/those were just things that I think might make it easier for
plan9 to sneak into environments I've used. Sort of like samba, IP masq
and apache allowed Linux to sneak into windos shops (and pulled many
others along). Eventually all those things might be replaced by truly
better things as people learn and discover and no longer need to use bad
legacy stuff because everyone else does.

--
Revenge is an integral part of forgiving and forgetting.
		-- The BOFH