Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[erik quanstrom]

honestly, i think that linux is the better place, if what you want
is something to view ajax google mashup stuff.  i don't find it strange
at all that the server can't display it's own data.  hard drives can't
initialiate ata commands, after all.

it's not too suprising that no 9 fan has written a javascript-compatable
browser.  i'd hope they be smart enough to always find something better
to do. ;-)

you know in 1992 or so when i first started using linux (couldn't get my
hands on a plan 9 license), it wasn't very functional.  but it was
tractable.  you could get stuff done.

now linux is pretty functional, i guess, but it is very difficult environment to
program in, and what works is very likely broken in the next release
because somebody thought there were too many bytes in struct work_struct
on 64-bit machines.

so suppose we have javascript and all that jazz working on plan 9,
would all that goo have vitiated the reason we were drawn to plan 9 in the 
first place?

- erik

On Sun Dec 10 15:58:35 EST 2006, rminnich@gmail.com wrote:
> Put it this way. I have a nice web page served out of a Plan 9 system
> that shows google maps data etc. I can't view it on Plan 9. What we
> have here, is failure to communicate. Drivers won't help this problem.
> 
> So what we're trying to do is give people a path from the linux world
> to a better place. The idea is that you'll get a linux kernel as a
> device driver. [...]

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Dave Eckhardt]

> so suppose we have javascript and all that jazz working on plan 9,
> would all that goo have vitiated the reason we were drawn to plan 9
> in the first place?

Because I need to share bits with people who use MS Office, I
need to run OpenOffice roughly daily.  But not all day, so
a combination of VNC to a FreeBSD machine and an emulated Linux
running under Plan 9 for travel would cut it.

I need to run a web browser pretty much all the time, though,
and it's hard to say when I'll need something that renders
actual web pages or some horrible JavaScript thing dreamt up
by HR.  So for me I think the barrier to booting Plan 9 on
my laptop every day (assuming for the moment no ACPI) would
be the lack of a Firefox-class browser.  But maybe the best
way to get one would be a stripped-down BSD release running
in a Plan 9 dom0.  At least, the FreeBSD guys have done pretty
well running random Linux binaries...

Dave Eckhardt

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Russ Cox]

We talked at length about this issue at IWP9 without a lot of consensus.
However, I think that many of us agreed on these points:

 - writing drivers sucks.
 - copying Linux and Windows will accomplish very little.
 - one significant place where Plan 9 wins is using it as a versatile
   base for building pieces that people use without knowing it's Plan 9
   (e.g., Sape's wireless base stations, Rangboom, xcpu, and
   many Inferno apps that Charles can't talk about).
 - there may be real value in finding a way to use Xen or other
   virtualization technologies to run Plan 9 on machines (for example,
   terminals) where you care more about the convenience of having
   Plan 9 than about the performance (or reliability!) of having it in
   control of the hardware.

And perhaps most important of all:

 - remember to keep it fun!

I can't deny the utility of having Firefox (I'm writing this in a
Firefox window), but even if Plan 9 could run Firefox, the next
thing would be oh but it needs to be able to run these ten
plugins, and so on and so on.  Personally, I think you are going
to be much happier running Plan 9 in some VM environment on
Linux or Windows than putting in the effort for the other way around.

Russ

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Lucio De Re]

>  - writing drivers sucks.

There are two components: the hardware and the primitives in the
operating system or, preferably, in the programming language.
PC-hardware sucks, but in practice Xen, VMware and their ilk are all
trying to provide an abstraction that doesn't.  Is it really true that
Plan 9 doesn't have anything additional to offer?

>  - copying Linux and Windows will accomplish very little.

To agree violently, it makes Plan 9 like Linux and Windows and that is
precisely not what I, at least, like in Plan 9.  I have Linux and
Windows, why would I want Plan 9 to resemble them?

>  - one significant place where Plan 9 wins is using it as a versatile
>    base for building pieces that people use without knowing it's Plan 9
>    (e.g., Sape's wireless base stations, Rangboom, xcpu, and
>    many Inferno apps that Charles can't talk about).

I think we all want a bit more glory than that, but if we all convince
ourselves, we can tuck Plan 9 entirely out of sight.  Problem is, we
then don't get a community any more and Plan 9 does not have a
profit-making organisation that can support it without the community.
Or am I missing something?

>  - there may be real value in finding a way to use Xen or other
>    virtualization technologies to run Plan 9 on machines (for example,
>    terminals) where you care more about the convenience of having
>    Plan 9 than about the performance (or reliability!) of having it in
>    control of the hardware.
> 
That's hard but feasible.  It's just that it becomes a means to an end
instead of being an objective in itself.  It seems to me that that
leads to stagnation at the core of Plan 9 where its strength ought to
lie.  Applications may make or break Plan 9, but principles are its
meat, in my opinion.  Of course I'm an ignorant but keen hardware
hack, so I guess I'm not an authoritative voice here.

> And perhaps most important of all:
> 
>  - remember to keep it fun!

I can see why that should be, but I'm afraid it's hard to buy.  Either
that, or your idea of fun and mine are poles apart.  Now, if Plan 9
could make writing drivers easily, that would be fun :-)

++L

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Brantley Coile]

>>  - one significant place where Plan 9 wins is using it as a versatile
>>    base for building pieces that people use without knowing it's Plan 9
>>    (e.g., Sape's wireless base stations, Rangboom, xcpu, and
>>    many Inferno apps that Charles can't talk about).
> 
> I think we all want a bit more glory than that, but if we all convince
> ourselves, we can tuck Plan 9 entirely out of sight.  Problem is, we
> then don't get a community any more and Plan 9 does not have a
> profit-making organisation that can support it without the community.
> Or am I missing something?

It doesn't always have to be completely out of sight.  Good embedded
applications are free from the usual, `but everyone else is using windows'
arguments.  Just a minor point.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Charles Forsyth]

>> - writing drivers sucks.

it's not a big problem in itself.  i quite enjoy it for
the reasonably well-documented chipsets one finds in (say)
embedded ARM and PowerPC platforms.  for those, i hardly ever
bother to look at another driver.  it's just so straightforward.
i look at the book and do what it says.  it doesn't work, so i
find there's an errrata or fuss about discovering that a bit
has the opposite sense from what's documented.  no matter.

on the PC, it's rather more troublesome: when i could get
reasonable documentation it was much the same as anything else.
without it, it's tedious, and perhaps too time-consuming
if i'm doing it in my spare time.  theo de raadt's slides
were quite a good summary.

still, there's not much choice, really.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Bruce Ellis]

Browser, buy a cheap PC and run whatever you like on it.
Wow that solves everything.  That was a good session.

brucee

On 12/12/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> >> - writing drivers sucks.
>
> it's not a big problem in itself.  i quite enjoy it for
> the reasonably well-documented chipsets one finds in (say)
> embedded ARM and PowerPC platforms.  for those, i hardly ever
> bother to look at another driver.  it's just so straightforward.
> i look at the book and do what it says.  it doesn't work, so i
> find there's an errrata or fuss about discovering that a bit
> has the opposite sense from what's documented.  no matter.
>
> on the PC, it's rather more troublesome: when i could get
> reasonable documentation it was much the same as anything else.
> without it, it's tedious, and perhaps too time-consuming
> if i'm doing it in my spare time.  theo de raadt's slides
> were quite a good summary.
>
> still, there's not much choice, really.
>

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Brantley Coile]

> Browser, buy a cheap PC and run whatever you like on it.

It was few years ago when I realized that machines were cheap, take two.
My secondary is a Mac.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[ron minnich]

On 12/12/06, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Browser, buy a cheap PC and run whatever you like on it.
> Wow that solves everything.  That was a good session.
>
> brucee

sucks for laptops though. I hate carrying all them thar laptops --
they get in the way of my shootin' iron.

ron

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Eric Van Hensbergen]

On 12/12/06, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/12/06, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Browser, buy a cheap PC and run whatever you like on it.
> > Wow that solves everything.  That was a good session.
> >
> > brucee
>
> sucks for laptops though. I hate carrying all them thar laptops --
> they get in the way of my shootin' iron.
>

Just need to put your experience of building small systems towards
building a "headless" laptop-server -- then you can use drawterm from
your "browser" laptop - or home desktop, or whatever.

It'd be sweet to have something I could power off of USB 2.0 or
battery, with a hard drive and wireless (and maybe a serial port for
jmk).  Gumstick seems like it comes close - but no real solution for
portable or piggy-back power.  I suppose an iPaq might be able to be
tasked to such a solution as well -- but has less than ideal disk
storage.  Neither has particularly glorious CPU power or memory --
maybe we can build something with the OLPC mother boards sans
screen/keyboard.

     -eric

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[erik quanstrom]

does the gumstix come with enough hardware documentation?  perhaps
i missed it.  but i didn't see the info on how one boots these things.

- erik

On Tue Dec 12 10:20:29 EST 2006, ericvh@gmail.com wrote:
> It'd be sweet to have something I could power off of USB 2.0 or
> battery, with a hard drive and wireless (and maybe a serial port for
> jmk).  Gumstick seems like it comes close - but no real solution for
> portable or piggy-back power.  I suppose an iPaq might be able to be
> tasked to such a solution as well -- but has less than ideal disk
> storage.  Neither has particularly glorious CPU power or memory --
> maybe we can build something with the OLPC mother boards sans
> screen/keyboard.
> 
>      -eric

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[ron minnich]

On 12/12/06, Eric Van Hensbergen <ericvh@gmail.com> wrote:

> It'd be sweet to have something I could power off of USB 2.0 or
> battery, with a hard drive and wireless (and maybe a serial port for
> jmk).

yeah, this was one of the ideas that came up before we started on Xen
again, but Aki and Andrey and Lucho beat me up on this idea. It came
down to the EC on one side, and me on the other, and that ended it.

I suggested running linux on a little 1-5W board, and using it to run
the linux apps, using a root mount from Plan 9. So Linux is this dumb
little headless box you only turn on when you want, and otherwise you
tell it to go away by yanking its power cord, verily.

They thought the idea, uh, lacked merit. (I think they said it sucked,
but am not sure).

I think one reason the idea may really suck is that Firefox (the "thin
client") requires a 200 MB footprint, which translates to gobs of
Watts. Figures. Web 2.0!

[[BTW, anybody but me enjoying the idea of taking an opteron out of
socket and replacing with ... an ... XML ... accelerator?]]

But I still like the 'stupid little linux CPU' idea. I want a backpack
full of little computers that spin up on demand. And don't weigh much.
and take no power. And have no moving parts. And generate no heat. And
use a fusion reactor for power. And, to reduce weight, have
antigravity pods. I guess I'll go visit Area 52 this weekend (Area 51
is always behind schedule and over budget).

ron

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Latchesar Ionkov]

This may solve the no-firefox-and-mplayer-for-plan9 problem, but I  
don't see how it solves the no-plan9-drivers-for-my-laptop one.

	Lucho

On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:01 PM, ron minnich wrote:

> On 12/12/06, Eric Van Hensbergen <ericvh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It'd be sweet to have something I could power off of USB 2.0 or
>> battery, with a hard drive and wireless (and maybe a serial port for
>> jmk).
>
> yeah, this was one of the ideas that came up before we started on Xen
> again, but Aki and Andrey and Lucho beat me up on this idea. It came
> down to the EC on one side, and me on the other, and that ended it.
>
> I suggested running linux on a little 1-5W board, and using it to run
> the linux apps, using a root mount from Plan 9. So Linux is this dumb
> little headless box you only turn on when you want, and otherwise you
> tell it to go away by yanking its power cord, verily.
>
> They thought the idea, uh, lacked merit. (I think they said it sucked,
> but am not sure).
>
> I think one reason the idea may really suck is that Firefox (the "thin
> client") requires a 200 MB footprint, which translates to gobs of
> Watts. Figures. Web 2.0!
>
> [[BTW, anybody but me enjoying the idea of taking an opteron out of
> socket and replacing with ... an ... XML ... accelerator?]]
>
> But I still like the 'stupid little linux CPU' idea. I want a backpack
> full of little computers that spin up on demand. And don't weigh much.
> and take no power. And have no moving parts. And generate no heat. And
> use a fusion reactor for power. And, to reduce weight, have
> antigravity pods. I guess I'll go visit Area 52 this weekend (Area 51
> is always behind schedule and over budget).
>
> ron

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[ron minnich]

On 12/12/06, Latchesar Ionkov <lionkov@lanl.gov> wrote:
> This may solve the no-firefox-and-mplayer-for-plan9 problem, but I
> don't see how it solves the no-plan9-drivers-for-my-laptop one.

Hence the approach we are taking with xen. You get a linux, you get a
Plan 9, you get holes torn in the I/O and memory spaces from Plan 9 to
hardware to let you doink hardware and write drivers under Plan 9,
and, with any luck, crash the machine at will.

I think it's going to work out. At least the crashing part.

Aki is already regularly crashing linux from user mode, so how hard can it be?

ron

p.s. with the new web 2.0 in my firefox browser, with 64M resident out
of 136M, I am seeing that the mouse "sticks" and as I move the mouse
random shit gets highlighted and erased. Fun.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Bakul Shah]

> Hence the approach we are taking with xen. You get a linux, you get a
> Plan 9, you get holes torn in the I/O and memory spaces from Plan 9 to
> hardware to let you doink hardware and write drivers under Plan 9,
> and, with any luck, crash the machine at will.

Have your considered inverting this setup?  Rather than a
native Linux and a parasitic plan9, have a native plan9 hand
over io and memory space it doesn't understand to the
parasite.  I'd rather have a very lean, clean and thin native
os (AKA hypervisor). Of course I have no idea if this can be
made to work....

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Charles Forsyth]

>>This may solve the no-firefox-and-mplayer-for-plan9 problem, but I  
>>don't see how it solves the no-plan9-drivers-for-my-laptop one.

well no: they must be written, but they are much easier than writing a browser,
even one as annoying as firefox.

when googling and fetching papers or software (my usual
use of the web), i typically get by with charon and hget.  for fancy stuff
i more often than not now manage with firefox, but i still find a few things that
demand windows.  in either case, it's either displacement activity
(ie, time wasting) or costly (buying on the internet).
having to reboot to get these things has the advantage
that, like undertaking a long journey, i ask myself ``is my journey really necessary?''.
no, more often than not, so i get back to writing software.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[ron minnich]

On 12/12/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> ...  buying on the internet).
> having to reboot to get these things has the advantage
> that, like undertaking a long journey, i ask myself ``is my journey really necessary?''.
> no, more often than not, so i get back to writing software.

unless it's that present for your wife. Then, it might be life-saving.

ron

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Matt]

There's a bit of a long shot option.

Java ME is now open source.
http://community.java.net/mobileandembedded/

So, in theory, it could be ported to plan9.

Why would anyone do that ?

Because the Opera Mini Web browser runs in Java ME environments.

http://www.operamini.com/


There's quite a bit of software written for J2ME


There's also Opera for devices, which might be worth a better look at.

http://www.opera.com/products/devices/


I know it would be a horrible thing to swallow, but there may be 
something there.

matt

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Latchesar Ionkov]

What does Java ME mean these days? Is it Java KVM, or Java CVM?  
Porting the first one to Plan9 is easy, I have the CVM code (sans  
graphics and hotspot) ported too. If it is released as open source  
and someone wants to finish the port, I can try to find what I have.

Thanks,
	Lucho

On Dec 13, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Matt wrote:

> There's a bit of a long shot option.
>
> Java ME is now open source.
> http://community.java.net/mobileandembedded/
>
> So, in theory, it could be ported to plan9.
>
> Why would anyone do that ?
>
> Because the Opera Mini Web browser runs in Java ME environments.
>
> http://www.operamini.com/
>
>
> There's quite a bit of software written for J2ME
>
>
> There's also Opera for devices, which might be worth a better look at.
>
> http://www.opera.com/products/devices/
>
>
> I know it would be a horrible thing to swallow, but there may be  
> something there.
>
> matt

Re: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[David Leimbach]

Mobile and Embedded stuff I think.  I wrote some stuff in it back in October.

I got tired of losing at Wordster at local bars so I wrote an
application in it for my cell phone to contact my Mac at home and find
all the combinations of 8,7,6,5,4, and 3 letter words from the random
8 letters Wordster gives out.

It's pretty easy to write quick apps like that.  I'd much rather have
a phone that could talk 9p though as it stands I had to do a few
tricks to make my phone think the program on my mac was an http server
:-)

Java's naming is very marketingriffic.

Dave

On 12/13/06, Latchesar Ionkov <lionkov@lanl.gov> wrote:
> What does Java ME mean these days? Is it Java KVM, or Java CVM?
> Porting the first one to Plan9 is easy, I have the CVM code (sans
> graphics and hotspot) ported too. If it is released as open source
> and someone wants to finish the port, I can try to find what I have.
>
> Thanks,
>         Lucho
>
> On Dec 13, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Matt wrote:
>
> > There's a bit of a long shot option.
> >
> > Java ME is now open source.
> > http://community.java.net/mobileandembedded/
> >
> > So, in theory, it could be ported to plan9.
> >
> > Why would anyone do that ?
> >
> > Because the Opera Mini Web browser runs in Java ME environments.
> >
> > http://www.operamini.com/
> >
> >
> > There's quite a bit of software written for J2ME
> >
> >
> > There's also Opera for devices, which might be worth a better look at.
> >
> > http://www.opera.com/products/devices/
> >
> >
> > I know it would be a horrible thing to swallow, but there may be
> > something there.
> >
> > matt
>
>

quite Off Topic: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Georg Lehner]

"ron minnich" <rminnich@gmail.com> writes:

> On 12/12/06, Eric Van Hensbergen <ericvh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It'd be sweet to have something I could power off of USB 2.0 or
>> battery, with a hard drive and wireless (and maybe a serial port for
>> jmk).
>
> yeah, this was one of the ideas that came up before we started on Xen
> again, but Aki and Andrey and Lucho beat me up on this idea. It came
> down to the EC on one side, and me on the other, and that ended it.

Wikipedia:

Early Childhood education
Electric Circus
Elimination Chamber
Emergency Contraception
Eric Clapton
Exacoulomb
ahhhhhh!!!!

EC = Executive Committee! 8-0

>
> I suggested running linux on a little 1-5W board, and using it to run
> the linux apps, using a root mount from Plan 9. So Linux is this dumb
> little headless box you only turn on when you want, and otherwise you
> tell it to go away by yanking its power cord, verily.
>
> They thought the idea, uh, lacked merit. (I think they said it sucked,
> but am not sure).
>
> I think one reason the idea may really suck is that Firefox (the "thin
> client") requires a 200 MB footprint, which translates to gobs of
> Watts. Figures. Web 2.0!
>
> [[BTW, anybody but me enjoying the idea of taking an opteron out of
> socket and replacing with ... an ... XML ... accelerator?]]
>
> But I still like the 'stupid little linux CPU' idea. I want a backpack
> full of little computers that spin up on demand. And don't weigh much.
> and take no power. And have no moving parts. And generate no heat. And
> use a fusion reactor for power. And, to reduce weight, have
> antigravity pods. I guess I'll go visit Area 52 this weekend (Area 51
> is always behind schedule and over budget).

http://www.intellasys.net/

Though: Do you feel like re-implement Plan9 in machine Forth?

>
> ron

-- 
    Jorge-León

Re: quite Off Topic: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Jack Johnson]

On 12/12/06, Georg Lehner <jorge-plan9@magma.com.ni> wrote:
> "ron minnich" <rminnich@gmail.com> writes:
> >> It'd be sweet to have something I could power off of USB 2.0 or
> >> battery, with a hard drive and wireless (and maybe a serial port for
> >> jmk).
> >
> > But I still like the 'stupid little linux CPU' idea.

Something along these lines?

http://www.engadget.com/2005/08/11/blackdog-linux-a-em-real-em-pocket-pc/

(Sorry, haven't been following the thread)

-Jack

Re: quite Off Topic: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[ron minnich]

On 12/12/06, Georg Lehner <jorge-plan9@magma.com.ni> wrote:

> Though: Do you feel like re-implement Plan9 in machine Forth?

I think I'd rather pull my own fingernails out.

ron

Re: quite Off Topic: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Russ Cox]

> On 12/12/06, Georg Lehner <jorge-plan9@magma.com.ni> wrote:
>
> > Though: Do you feel like re-implement Plan9 in machine Forth?
>
> I think I'd rather pull my own fingernails out.

with a rusty pliers.

Russ

Re: quite Off Topic: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Bakul Shah]

> > > Though: Do you feel like re-implement Plan9 in machine Forth?
> >
> > I think I'd rather pull my own fingernails out.
> 
> with a rusty pliers.

Use a mouse (this is 9fans afterall).

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Gabriel Diaz]

Hello

what books you guys recommend to start with hardware programming?
(nemo's kernel book of course)

I mean, having no experience with hardware programming, a desire i
have is to read something to learn from other's experience on writing
software for manage hardware. (something like the practice of
programming but focused on hardware issues).

of course i can always re-read my school notes, and start to fight
with the real life. . . but this looks discouraging, (and becomes much
more discouraging taking in account the comments of more talented
programmers on the iwp9 :)

thanks

gabi


On 12/12/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> >> - writing drivers sucks.
>
> it's not a big problem in itself.  i quite enjoy it for
> the reasonably well-documented chipsets one finds in (say)
> embedded ARM and PowerPC platforms.  for those, i hardly ever
> bother to look at another driver.  it's just so straightforward.
> i look at the book and do what it says.  it doesn't work, so i
> find there's an errrata or fuss about discovering that a bit
> has the opposite sense from what's documented.  no matter.
>
> on the PC, it's rather more troublesome: when i could get
> reasonable documentation it was much the same as anything else.
> without it, it's tedious, and perhaps too time-consuming
> if i'm doing it in my spare time.  theo de raadt's slides
> were quite a good summary.
>
> still, there's not much choice, really.
>

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Bruce Ellis]

well while i'm commenting randomly ...

none.

there is essentially no documention on many, many boards
and chips "just in case we want to rip off their IP'.

correct me if i'm wrong - i have stood corrected.

brucee

On 12/12/06, Gabriel Diaz <gabidiaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello
>
> what books you guys recommend to start with hardware programming?
> (nemo's kernel book of course)
>
> I mean, having no experience with hardware programming, a desire i
> have is to read something to learn from other's experience on writing
> software for manage hardware. (something like the practice of
> programming but focused on hardware issues).
>
> of course i can always re-read my school notes, and start to fight
> with the real life. . . but this looks discouraging, (and becomes much
> more discouraging taking in account the comments of more talented
> programmers on the iwp9 :)
>
> thanks
>
> gabi
>
>
> On 12/12/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > >> - writing drivers sucks.
> >
> > it's not a big problem in itself.  i quite enjoy it for
> > the reasonably well-documented chipsets one finds in (say)
> > embedded ARM and PowerPC platforms.  for those, i hardly ever
> > bother to look at another driver.  it's just so straightforward.
> > i look at the book and do what it says.  it doesn't work, so i
> > find there's an errrata or fuss about discovering that a bit
> > has the opposite sense from what's documented.  no matter.
> >
> > on the PC, it's rather more troublesome: when i could get
> > reasonable documentation it was much the same as anything else.
> > without it, it's tedious, and perhaps too time-consuming
> > if i'm doing it in my spare time.  theo de raadt's slides
> > were quite a good summary.
> >
> > still, there's not much choice, really.
> >
>

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Lucio De Re]

> there is essentially no documention on many, many boards
> and chips "just in case we want to rip off their IP'.

You're probably right.  The only explanation is that these suckers
actually know that their product can easily be improved upon.

++L

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Bruce Ellis]

i thought that i could get anything when working at the labs.
oh no.  one contact slipped the reason, your company
makes silicion. we got some good stuff about a chip, but
the conditions included keeping the magic book in a locked
drawer.  no problem - didn't say anything about keeping the key
in the lock.

brucee

On 12/12/06, Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> > there is essentially no documention on many, many boards
> > and chips "just in case we want to rip off their IP'.
>
> You're probably right.  The only explanation is that these suckers
> actually know that their product can easily be improved upon.
>
> ++L

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Scott Schwartz]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 09:30:35PM +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> i thought that i could get anything when working at the labs.
> oh no.

Wasn't there one time when there was problem getting drivers for *lucent*
wavelan pcmcia cards?  (Maybe I misremember, but the story is better
that way.)

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Brantley Coile]

>> there is essentially no documention on many, many boards
>> and chips "just in case we want to rip off their IP'.
> 
> You're probably right.  The only explanation is that these suckers
> actually know that their product can easily be improved upon.
> 
> ++L

Another thing I've ran into was the small companies that
thought it was easier to write drivers themselves than to
write good documentation on their parts.  The driver author
just has to shout over the cube wall.  They have to write
the drivers anyway.

Intel seems to be schizophrenic about it.  Some docs we can get
with a NDA and some are on the web.  Not clear why.

A recent driver was done with no docs but good support from the
company.

Some companies, LIKE BROADCOM!, won't sell part to Coraid because
<mocking high pitched voice> we're too small </mocking high pitched voice>.
No docs, no support, hope they fall into a large hole.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Gabriel Diaz]

hello


> Some companies, LIKE BROADCOM!, won't sell part to Coraid because
> <mocking high pitched voice> we're too small </mocking high pitched voice>.
> No docs, no support, hope they fall into a large hole.

amen :)

seems that the conclusion is what i 'suspected', reading the source
and actually writting drivers is the only way to start

thanks

gabi

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Charles Forsyth]

> I mean, having no experience with hardware programming, a desire i
> have is to read something to learn from other's experience on writing
> software for manage hardware. (something like the practice of
> programming but focused on hardware issues).

possibly a good way is to read existing Plan 9 drivers

it isn't really a deep mystery, except for some of the peculiar
interfaces on the x86.  i usually blunder my way past them, myself.

Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Brantley Coile]

>  - one significant place where Plan 9 wins is using it as a versatile
>    base for building pieces that people use without knowing it's Plan 9
>    (e.g., Sape's wireless base stations, Rangboom, xcpu, and
>    many Inferno apps that Charles can't talk about).

Coraid SR1520 and SR420 use Plan 9.  Depending on how many
systems are running Plan 9 out there, we might have more
kernels running than anyone else.  And we keep shipping.

Coraid will be using embedded Plan 9 for years to come.

Re: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[David Leimbach]

> I can't deny the utility of having Firefox (I'm writing this in a
> Firefox window), but even if Plan 9 could run Firefox, the next
> thing would be oh but it needs to be able to run these ten
> plugins, and so on and so on.  Personally, I think you are going
> to be much happier running Plan 9 in some VM environment on
> Linux or Windows than putting in the effort for the other way around.
>

And a lot of times, at the end of the day, I feel that as a result of
wanting to run Plan 9 in a VM environment, even in Parallels, makes me
sad, and I'd almost rather use Inferno :-)


> Russ
>

Re: Re: Again: (self)hosted Plan9? Was: [9fans] extending xen to allow

[Aki Nyrhinen]

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after watching andrey run plan9 in parallels and seeing the drawterm
windows on x11, i'd have agreed with you, but i must say it feels a lot
less bad when the "parasite" is full-screen and the "host" programs like
firefox are in a smaller rio window that you can kill or hide at will.

the firefox i'm writing this in is running full-screen (f11) on a 1000 by
1000 pixel vnc session and the illusion of having it native is pretty
damn good (for me anyway) at least until my drawterm hack crashes
and i start shouting untranslatable words (i hope it's better now that
i realized drawterm didn't have reentrant memimagedraw)

On 12/12/06, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I can't deny the utility of having Firefox (I'm writing this in a
> > Firefox window), but even if Plan 9 could run Firefox, the next
> > thing would be oh but it needs to be able to run these ten
> > plugins, and so on and so on.  Personally, I think you are going
> > to be much happier running Plan 9 in some VM environment on
> > Linux or Windows than putting in the effort for the other way around.
> >
>
> And a lot of times, at the end of the day, I feel that as a result of
> wanting to run Plan 9 in a VM environment, even in Parallels, makes me
> sad, and I'd almost rather use Inferno :-)
>
>
> > Russ
> >
>

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