[9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[ramkromberg]

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The docs are indeed well writen and were very useful, and I feel,
suitable as classroom material, now to just find an academic mailing list
:-)

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:01:25 -0400 Jon Snader <jsnader@ix.netcom.com>
wrote

>On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 08:01:58PM +0100, Uriel wrote:
>> Already done, see the last item here:
>> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Papers/index.html#RECENT_PAPERS
>> and http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf
>>
>> Can we kill this thread now? Thanks
>>
>
>Night of the living Plan 9 desktop:  the thread that wouldn't
>die!
>
>jcs

Die evil thread ! DIE !!!
It won't die, TO THE HILLS !!!

Ram Kromberg
ramkromberg@mail.com

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[9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[ramkromberg]

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Since I only used Plan 9 in a Virtual Machine I can only give a first
impression, but I suppose those are what counts when encountering
anything new, right ?

I think Linux and Windows control the Desktop and Servers market so plan9
can't penetrate that market, instead a niche market might redeem it, like
handheld devices which I think rio will do nicely with a touch screen, or
maybe routers switches and alike.

I think a programmers IDE is really important, coders are human too and
acme is simply uncomfortable to MS Visual C++ fresh out of collage, never
seen a linux outside the classroom programmers.

Maybe better documents ? its too hard to familiarize your self with a
system just by looking at the source code, some guides on device drivers
and working with rio should be prioritized as hardware support is most
important to the applications we want, and this applications want to
interact with the users we need :-)

Forum ! If plan9 is to be used, people have to know it first... It may
seem stupid but you wouldn't believe how many open source project have
been made and done by forums and the lack of them, developers will always
leave the project due to "real life" issues, and without a strong
following, projects simply slip into oblivion no matter how important and
necessary they are. In fact, many useless projects which has no
justification had been progressing quite nicely over the years due to a
fanatical fan base (the many p2p clients come in mind) have become
suddenly useful in the past couple of years.

If plan9 can reach students as part of OS design course instead of linux
their`s a good chance it will get more wide spread (PlanB?), this should
be possible because linux is really badly conceptualized and programmed
so a professor might prefer the well written code of plan9, unfortunately
professors are really busy people that won't try plan9 without a good
academic buzz around it - Care to write a paper ?

Overall I think Microsoft will start losing market share to linux in the
desktop market since many of my friends and I actually tried Vista only
to find ourself losing another good DVD+R :-), And thats where xBox comes
instead.
With all this moving around plan9 might find itself a place ? some anti
MS anti Linux willing party ready to embrace plan9 ? Apple did it... why
not someone else ? I know Sun got board with *unix :-) Maybe some unknown
Asian company ready to break the market with a cheaper then dirt
product... lol...

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Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 3/16/07, ramkromberg@mail.com <ramkromberg@mail.com> wrote:
> If plan9 can reach students as part of OS design course instead of linux their`s a good
> chance it will get more wide spread (PlanB?), this should be possible because linux is
> really badly conceptualized and programmed so a professor might prefer the well written
> code of plan9, unfortunately professors are really busy people that won't try plan9 without
> a good academic buzz around it - Care to write a paper ?

So all we need is a new Operating Systems textbook using Plan 9 for
example code?

Sounds reasonable: when I took OSs last semester, the professor was
using Linux kernel code, heavily edited for readability; I could
usually find the same functionality in the Plan 9 kernel code with
more readable code.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[Uriel]

Already done, see the last item here:
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Papers/index.html#RECENT_PAPERS
and http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf

Can we kill this thread now? Thanks

uriel


On 3/16/07, Joel C. Salomon <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/16/07, ramkromberg@mail.com <ramkromberg@mail.com> wrote:
> > If plan9 can reach students as part of OS design course instead of linux their`s a good
> > chance it will get more wide spread (PlanB?), this should be possible because linux is
> > really badly conceptualized and programmed so a professor might prefer the well written
> > code of plan9, unfortunately professors are really busy people that won't try plan9 without
> > a good academic buzz around it - Care to write a paper ?
>
> So all we need is a new Operating Systems textbook using Plan 9 for
> example code?
>
> Sounds reasonable: when I took OSs last semester, the professor was
> using Linux kernel code, heavily edited for readability; I could
> usually find the same functionality in the Plan 9 kernel code with
> more readable code.
>
> --Joel
>

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[Jon Snader]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 08:01:58PM +0100, Uriel wrote:
> Already done, see the last item here:
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Papers/index.html#RECENT_PAPERS
> and http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf
> 
> Can we kill this thread now? Thanks
> 

Night of the living Plan 9 desktop:  the thread that wouldn't
die!

jcs

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[andrey mirtchovski]

Unspeakable Horrors From Outer Space Paralyze The Living And Resurrect
This Thread!

> Night of the living Plan 9 desktop:  the thread that wouldn't
> die!

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 3/16/07, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So all we need is a new Operating Systems textbook using Plan 9 for
> > example code?
>
> Already done, see the last item here:
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Papers/index.html#RECENT_PAPERS
> and http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf

The "Notes on the Plan 9 kernel source" is a great resource -- for
someone familiar with operating system internals who wants a feel for
the "Plan 9 Way™"; the "Introduction to Operating Systems
Abstractions" is closer to the level of Kernighan & Pike.  There's
plenty of room for the book I suggested between the other two.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> Right. Maybe a major issue why I personally cannot really get much further 
> with Plan 9 (with all due respect to those people who did *something* about 
> it already) is the lack of a modern, fully capable web browser.

How *did* we get anything done in the 1970s ...

Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[matt]

http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170

From: Lucio De Re <lucio@pro...>

Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
Plan 9 is today.

[9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[app]

On Mar 8, 11:05 pm, mattmob...@proweb.co.uk (matt) wrote:
> http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
>
> From: Lucio De Re <lucio@pro...>
>
> Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
> Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
> Plan 9 is today.

Early Quake was if not written, at least running on Plan 9, back when
Carmack was active on this list.

Note also that Quake system of ".pakN" files created modern gaming
with mods. And it is just an emulation of per process files systems
that John C. got from Plan 9. Just this kind of crude mock
implementation of this great idea changed the gaming world, even if
applied narrowly.

What per-process file systems, and "persistent, distributed,
architecture independet inheritable objects" as "union mountable
networked file systems" could do to the software engineering, if it
would become mainstream design principle!

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[David Leimbach]

On 3/9/07, app <porttikivi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 8, 11:05 pm, mattmob...@proweb.co.uk (matt) wrote:
> > http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
> >
> > From: Lucio De Re <lucio@pro...>
> >
> > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
> > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
> > Plan 9 is today.
>
> Early Quake was if not written, at least running on Plan 9, back when
> Carmack was active on this list.
>

See this:

http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/1995-August/003490.html


> Note also that Quake system of ".pakN" files created modern gaming
> with mods. And it is just an emulation of per process files systems
> that John C. got from Plan 9. Just this kind of crude mock
> implementation of this great idea changed the gaming world, even if
> applied narrowly.
>
> What per-process file systems, and "persistent, distributed,
> architecture independet inheritable objects" as "union mountable
> networked file systems" could do to the software engineering, if it
> would become mainstream design principle!
>

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[Elbing Miss]

On Friday 09 March 2007 16:52:38 David Leimbach wrote:
> On 3/9/07, app <porttikivi@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 8, 11:05 pm, mattmob...@proweb.co.uk (matt) wrote:
> > > http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
> > >
> > > From: Lucio De Re <lucio@pro...>
> > >
> > > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
> > > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
> > > Plan 9 is today.
> >
> > Early Quake was if not written, at least running on Plan 9, back when
> > Carmack was active on this list.
>
> See this:
>
> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/1995-August/003490.html
>
> > Note also that Quake system of ".pakN" files created modern gaming
> > with mods. And it is just an emulation of per process files systems
> > that John C. got from Plan 9. Just this kind of crude mock
> > implementation of this great idea changed the gaming world, even if
> > applied narrowly.
> >
> > What per-process file systems, and "persistent, distributed,
> > architecture independet inheritable objects" as "union mountable
> > networked file systems" could do to the software engineering, if it
> > would become mainstream design principle!

What is the end of story? Is there any quake for plan 9? at least... engines 
perhaps? unfinished code?
When I tried to port doom for plan 9 (today even in linux with xorg 7 don't 
work any existent port nicely... if any of them works without old extensions) 
Uriel told me about John C. and Plan 9; but I can't find any code about that, 
just posts in 9fans. Maybe Idsoftware is the actual propietary of that 
hipothetic code, but it would be fun to try play quake in plan 9 in our days. 
Of course, in this Ferrari Os maybe we don't need anything from windows and 
linux: desktop, icons... including games, but I love play with my computer.
-- 
Elbing

Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

[David Leimbach]

On 3/9/07, Elbing Miss <elbingmiss@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday 09 March 2007 16:52:38 David Leimbach wrote:
> > On 3/9/07, app <porttikivi@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mar 8, 11:05 pm, mattmob...@proweb.co.uk (matt) wrote:
> > > > http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
> > > >
> > > > From: Lucio De Re <lucio@pro...>
> > > >
> > > > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
> > > > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
> > > > Plan 9 is today.
> > >
> > > Early Quake was if not written, at least running on Plan 9, back when
> > > Carmack was active on this list.
> >
> > See this:
> >
> > http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/1995-August/003490.html
> >
> > > Note also that Quake system of ".pakN" files created modern gaming
> > > with mods. And it is just an emulation of per process files systems
> > > that John C. got from Plan 9. Just this kind of crude mock
> > > implementation of this great idea changed the gaming world, even if
> > > applied narrowly.
> > >
> > > What per-process file systems, and "persistent, distributed,
> > > architecture independet inheritable objects" as "union mountable
> > > networked file systems" could do to the software engineering, if it
> > > would become mainstream design principle!
>
> What is the end of story? Is there any quake for plan 9? at least... engines
> perhaps? unfinished code?
> When I tried to port doom for plan 9 (today even in linux with xorg 7 don't
> work any existent port nicely... if any of them works without old extensions)
> Uriel told me about John C. and Plan 9; but I can't find any code about that,
> just posts in 9fans. Maybe Idsoftware is the actual propietary of that
> hipothetic code, but it would be fun to try play quake in plan 9 in our days.
> Of course, in this Ferrari Os maybe we don't need anything from windows and
> linux: desktop, icons... including games, but I love play with my computer.
> --
> Elbing
>


I don't know what became of it... but yes, I wouldn't have ever tried
Plan 9 to begin with if I didn't like to experiment :-)