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* [9fans] A sad story and a question
@ 2007-11-10  2:13 Pietro Gagliardi
  2007-11-10  2:49 ` geoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Pietro Gagliardi @ 2007-11-10  2:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Hello. I performed

	term% /usr/glenda/bin/rc/pull

today and I noticed some new updates to files for commands. So I did

	term% cd /sys/src/cmd
	term% mk all

and waited (primarily for GhostScript). At the end there were errors.  
So I went back and tried to see if

	term% cd ..
	term% mk clean

would fix it. Nope - it reset my date, among others. So now I'm going  
to reinstall Plan 9. Oh, and when I tried to back up my files to my  
FTP server, it wiped some of the files (a important one was updated  
on my Mac OS X system, though, and two were not touched, so  
everything is good now). :-( So now I'm going back to reinstall Plan  
9 and ask this question:

If an update is retrieved with glenda's pull, do you then perform an  
mk all on the new sources?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10  2:13 [9fans] A sad story and a question Pietro Gagliardi
@ 2007-11-10  2:49 ` geoff
  2007-11-10  3:00   ` Pietro Gagliardi
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: geoff @ 2007-11-10  2:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

No, matching binaries will be built the night following the 
source changes, and those binaries will be installed on
sources (except for kernels and 9load).  So just pulling
periodically will keep you current.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10  2:49 ` geoff
@ 2007-11-10  3:00   ` Pietro Gagliardi
  2007-11-10  4:50     ` ron minnich
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Pietro Gagliardi @ 2007-11-10  3:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

So I just ruined my system. Oh well, these things happen :-) I did  
manage to back up the most important parts (my colors library is in / 
n/sources/contrib/pietro; I also have some shell scripts such as  
setupnet, which sets up the network, /n/sources, etc. which were put  
on my FTP server).

On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:49 PM, geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

> No, matching binaries will be built the night following the
> source changes, and those binaries will be installed on
> sources (except for kernels and 9load).  So just pulling
> periodically will keep you current.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10  3:00   ` Pietro Gagliardi
@ 2007-11-10  4:50     ` ron minnich
  2007-11-10  4:55       ` Pietro Gagliardi
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2007-11-10  4:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
> So I just ruined my system. Oh well, these things happen :-)

you have a venti? Maybe people here can tell you the easy way to back
up to an older score -- like pre-ruin.

Nothing's ever really "gone" on plan 9.

ron


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10  4:50     ` ron minnich
@ 2007-11-10  4:55       ` Pietro Gagliardi
  2007-11-10 13:04         ` erik quanstrom
  2007-11-10 17:31         ` ron minnich
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Pietro Gagliardi @ 2007-11-10  4:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have  
sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)

On Nov 9, 2007, at 11:50 PM, ron minnich wrote:

> On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
>> So I just ruined my system. Oh well, these things happen :-)
>
> you have a venti? Maybe people here can tell you the easy way to back
> up to an older score -- like pre-ruin.
>
> Nothing's ever really "gone" on plan 9.
>
> ron


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10  4:55       ` Pietro Gagliardi
@ 2007-11-10 13:04         ` erik quanstrom
  2007-11-10 17:31         ` ron minnich
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-11-10 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

get a bigger hard drive.  160g hard drives can be had for $45.
there was a time when 100gb was considered "infinite" storage.

- erik


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10  4:55       ` Pietro Gagliardi
  2007-11-10 13:04         ` erik quanstrom
@ 2007-11-10 17:31         ` ron minnich
  2007-11-10 18:58           ` David Leimbach
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2007-11-10 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
> I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
> sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)

If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important bits of Plan 9.

ron


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 17:31         ` ron minnich
@ 2007-11-10 18:58           ` David Leimbach
  2007-11-10 19:00             ` Pietro Gagliardi
  2007-11-10 19:24             ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: David Leimbach @ 2007-11-10 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Nov 10, 2007 9:31 AM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
> > I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
> > sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)
>
> If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important bits of Plan 9.
>
> ron
>

I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports.  I bet it's a
better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)

Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.

Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
who worked on that!  That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.

Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 18:58           ` David Leimbach
@ 2007-11-10 19:00             ` Pietro Gagliardi
  2007-11-10 23:48               ` David Leimbach
  2007-11-10 19:24             ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Pietro Gagliardi @ 2007-11-10 19:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

What if Time Machine is implemented around Venti?

On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:58 PM, David Leimbach wrote:

> On Nov 10, 2007 9:31 AM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
>>> I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
>>> sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)
>>
>> If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important  
>> bits of Plan 9.
>>
>> ron
>>
>
> I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports.  I bet it's a
> better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)
>
> Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.
>
> Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
> who worked on that!  That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
> to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.
>
> Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 18:58           ` David Leimbach
  2007-11-10 19:00             ` Pietro Gagliardi
@ 2007-11-10 19:24             ` Bakul Shah
  2007-11-10 19:46               ` andrey mirtchovski
  2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2007-11-10 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> > If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important bits of Plan 9.
> >
> 
> I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports.  I bet it's a
> better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)
> 
> Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.

I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
plan9.  I have been thinking about openGL on plan9.  Has
anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?

> Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
> who worked on that!  That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
> to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.

I migrated one FreeBSD machine to zfs and so now venti
happens to be running on top of zfs.  Probably bit of
an overkill...


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 19:24             ` Bakul Shah
@ 2007-11-10 19:46               ` andrey mirtchovski
  2007-11-10 21:20                 ` john
  2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2007-11-10 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
> plan9.  I have been thinking about openGL on plan9.  Has
> anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?

the free opengl libraries (mesagl) were ported long time ago without
any of the optimizations. they were never tied to the windowing
environment however. glut was never ported, nor was a replacement for
it ever written.

it is a good exercise in Plan 9 and it's doable within the APE
framework, so not too big of an effort. making it fast though is much
more difficult :(


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 19:46               ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2007-11-10 21:20                 ` john
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: john @ 2007-11-10 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>> I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
>> plan9.  I have been thinking about openGL on plan9.  Has
>> anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?
> 
> the free opengl libraries (mesagl) were ported long time ago without
> any of the optimizations. they were never tied to the windowing
> environment however. glut was never ported, nor was a replacement for
> it ever written.
> 
> it is a good exercise in Plan 9 and it's doable within the APE
> framework, so not too big of an effort. making it fast though is much
> more difficult :(

Perhaps some of the reason nobody is doing much with 3D is that a lot of
people use drawterm all the time, which is less than ideal. I dread to think
of DOOM on drawterm over my connection :)


John


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 19:24             ` Bakul Shah
  2007-11-10 19:46               ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
  2007-11-11  0:27                 ` Anthony Sorace
                                   ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Paul Lalonde @ 2007-11-10 23:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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>
> I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
> plan9.  I have been thinking about openGL on plan9.  Has
> anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?

Disclaimer: I work for Intel, in a graphics group tied closely to  
GPUs.  All my words are mine, as are my opinions, and don't represent  
Intel.

There is no deep technical reason not to add OpenGL to plan9.  It is,  
however, one hell of a big effort if you want hardware acceleration,  
not easily undertaken by hobbyists.  Each hardware device to support  
requires substantial driver work and compiler work - shader compilers  
must be targeted to particular GPUs these days.

If I were going the route of enabling 3D graphics on Plan9 I'd  
probably flat out ditch the OpenGL model.  Instead I'd probably treat  
the GPU as a remote machine, and use 9P to provide namespace in which  
you could bind textures, vertex buffers, frame buffers, shaders, and  
so on.  A control channel would be used to launch tasks using these  
named resources.  There's minor issues involving virtualization in  
the absence of sufficient resources, but I'm hoping the days of small  
graphics cards will be behind us long before I can get around to  
coding such a driver...

Paul

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 19:00             ` Pietro Gagliardi
@ 2007-11-10 23:48               ` David Leimbach
  2007-11-12  3:19                 ` Russ Cox
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: David Leimbach @ 2007-11-10 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Nov 10, 2007 11:00 AM, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
> What if Time Machine is implemented around Venti?
>

I suspected initially that it was, and while I've not looked into it,
I tend to think it isn't :-)

Dave

>
> On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:58 PM, David Leimbach wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 2007 9:31 AM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi <pietro10@mac.com> wrote:
> >>> I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
> >>> sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)
> >>
> >> If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important
> >> bits of Plan 9.
> >>
> >> ron
> >>
> >
> > I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports.  I bet it's a
> > better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)
> >
> > Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.
> >
> > Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
> > who worked on that!  That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
> > to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.
> >
> > Dave
>
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
@ 2007-11-11  0:27                 ` Anthony Sorace
  2007-11-11  1:12                   ` Paul Lalonde
  2007-11-11  1:12                 ` Joel C. Salomon
  2007-11-12 20:32                 ` 3d graphics (was " Bakul Shah
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Sorace @ 2007-11-11  0:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 11/10/07, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:

// ...I'm hoping the days of small graphics cards will be behind us
// long before I can get around to coding such a driver...

The cheapest ATI card I could find on their website has 128MB of DDR.
The lowest of NVidia's modern line comes with 256MB. Clock speeds are
in the 400Mhz range and go up from there. You can get GPUs past the
Ghz mark and within spitting distance of the GB mark.

I think the days of small graphics cards were behind us a few years ago now.
Anthony


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-11  0:27                 ` Anthony Sorace
@ 2007-11-11  1:12                   ` Paul Lalonde
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Paul Lalonde @ 2007-11-11  1:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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On 10-Nov-07, at 4:27 PM, Anthony Sorace wrote:
> The cheapest ATI card I could find on their website has 128MB of DDR.
> The lowest of NVidia's modern line comes with 256MB. Clock speeds are
> in the 400Mhz range and go up from there. You can get GPUs past the
> Ghz mark and within spitting distance of the GB mark.
>
> I think the days of small graphics cards were behind us a few years  
> ago now.
> Anthony

It must be a matter of expectations - the apps I work with take that  
256MB of ram, eat it for breakfast, and ask for more.  The  
performance implications of round trips over the bus to main memory  
to swap/page are too much for me to put up with.
But then, I'm rendering substantial 3-D environments; for desktop eye- 
candy, it's more than enough.

Paul

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
  2007-11-11  0:27                 ` Anthony Sorace
@ 2007-11-11  1:12                 ` Joel C. Salomon
  2007-11-11  5:34                   ` Paul Lalonde
  2007-11-12 20:32                 ` 3d graphics (was " Bakul Shah
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: Joel C. Salomon @ 2007-11-11  1:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Nov 10, 2007 6:28 PM, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
> If I were going the route of enabling 3D graphics on Plan9 I'd
> probably flat out ditch the OpenGL model.  Instead...

The little I know of OpenGL led me to think that it was also created
to be run over a network, but I have no idea how big a mismatch there
is between the model it assumes and 9P.  I assume you have a better
view of things?

--Joel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-11  1:12                 ` Joel C. Salomon
@ 2007-11-11  5:34                   ` Paul Lalonde
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Paul Lalonde @ 2007-11-11  5:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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Hash: SHA1

Modern graphics libraries essentially treat the GPU like a remote  
host - even over fast PCIe it's far enough away that when you're  
aiming for 16.6ms frame times you can't afford much bus traffic.   
Instead, the intention is that most of your data is resident in GPU  
memory and only a small fraction of the used data is transfered from  
the host every frame.   9P is probably not ideal, but the advantages  
of being able to refer to resources so easily could be compelling.   
I'd love to be able to mount a tar file of textures and vertex  
buffers and have a cache on the GPU manage those for me.  It's a much  
simpler user model than the current myriad ways of setting up  
different data types.

Paul

On 10-Nov-07, at 5:12 PM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:

> On Nov 10, 2007 6:28 PM, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
>> If I were going the route of enabling 3D graphics on Plan9 I'd
>> probably flat out ditch the OpenGL model.  Instead...
>
> The little I know of OpenGL led me to think that it was also created
> to be run over a network, but I have no idea how big a mismatch there
> is between the model it assumes and 9P.  I assume you have a better
> view of things?
>
> --Joel

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 23:48               ` David Leimbach
@ 2007-11-12  3:19                 ` Russ Cox
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2007-11-12  3:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> What if Time Machine is implemented around Venti?

It's implemented around ln.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/14#time-machine-internals

Russ


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* 3d graphics (was Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question
  2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
  2007-11-11  0:27                 ` Anthony Sorace
  2007-11-11  1:12                 ` Joel C. Salomon
@ 2007-11-12 20:32                 ` Bakul Shah
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2007-11-12 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Disclaimer: I work for Intel, in a graphics group tied closely to  
> GPUs.  All my words are mine, as are my opinions, and don't represent  
> Intel.
...
>                                            Instead I'd probably treat  
> the GPU as a remote machine, and use 9P to provide namespace in which  
> you could bind textures, vertex buffers, frame buffers, shaders, and  
> so on.  A control channel would be used to launch tasks using these  
> named resources. 

That seems like a lot of fun, but wouldn't it involve doing a
from-scratch design?  Or may be you are talking about a thin
layer that provides access to what a GPU based controller
provides?  Something on the level of DRI/DRM?  I'd be happy
if this can be done for even one graphics card.

May be then an openGL compatible layer can be added on top
for all the existing apps one'd like to port to Plan9.  I
don't foresee anyone doing a rewrite of google earth.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2007-11-12 20:32 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2007-11-10  2:13 [9fans] A sad story and a question Pietro Gagliardi
2007-11-10  2:49 ` geoff
2007-11-10  3:00   ` Pietro Gagliardi
2007-11-10  4:50     ` ron minnich
2007-11-10  4:55       ` Pietro Gagliardi
2007-11-10 13:04         ` erik quanstrom
2007-11-10 17:31         ` ron minnich
2007-11-10 18:58           ` David Leimbach
2007-11-10 19:00             ` Pietro Gagliardi
2007-11-10 23:48               ` David Leimbach
2007-11-12  3:19                 ` Russ Cox
2007-11-10 19:24             ` Bakul Shah
2007-11-10 19:46               ` andrey mirtchovski
2007-11-10 21:20                 ` john
2007-11-10 23:28               ` Paul Lalonde
2007-11-11  0:27                 ` Anthony Sorace
2007-11-11  1:12                   ` Paul Lalonde
2007-11-11  1:12                 ` Joel C. Salomon
2007-11-11  5:34                   ` Paul Lalonde
2007-11-12 20:32                 ` 3d graphics (was " Bakul Shah

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