Re: [9fans] Scanners

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[erik quanstrom]

> Has anyone given thought/attempted to getting newer scanners to work
> on Plan 9? Perhaps the SANE library could be used as a base for
> something saner (if you'll forgive the pun).

i thought that was irony.  :-)

- erik

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Peter A. Cejchan]

nevertheless, nobody has a working scanner on plan9 ??
++pac

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Andreas Zell]

On 25 Nov., 10:50, tyap...@gmail.com (Peter A. Cejchan) wrote:
> nevertheless, nobody has a working scanner on plan9 ??
> ++pac

We have working scanner.

www.imageaccess.de

You can use the Wt25,WT36,Wt42/48 and WT36DS Scanner.

Scan via Touchscreen and upload the images to a Plan9 cifs
networkshare.

AZ.

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Peter A. Cejchan]

if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a
plan9 native box...

++pac

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Peter A. Cejchan]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
> if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a
> plan9 native box...
>
> ++pac
>

this is from your web:
Requirement - Software:  	Java Sun Microsystems; Operating System
Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista

i got rid from those fsck-ing windoze os several yrs ago, now i want
to free last of my boxes still running linux...uggh
++pac

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Jorden Mauro]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:08 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> Has anyone given thought/attempted to getting newer scanners to work
>> on Plan 9? Perhaps the SANE library could be used as a base for
>> something saner (if you'll forgive the pun).
>
> i thought that was irony.  :-)
>
> - erik
>
>

Here's your irony:

P9 needs more APIs with TLAs and FLAs to make it more marketable.

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Andreas Zell]

On 25 Nov., 13:34, tyap...@gmail.com (Peter A. Cejchan) wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a
> > plan9 native box...
>
> > ++pac
>
> this is from your web:
> Requirement - Software:         Java Sun Microsystems; Operating System
> Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista
>
> i got rid from those fsck-ing windoze os several yrs ago, now i want
> to free last of my boxes still running linux...uggh
> ++pac

The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on plan9).
No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
The scanner use smbclient.


AZ.

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Jorden Mauro]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Andreas Zell <zell@imageaccess.de> wrote:
> On 25 Nov., 13:34, tyap...@gmail.com (Peter A. Cejchan) wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a
>> > plan9 native box...
>>
>> > ++pac
>>
>> this is from your web:
>> Requirement - Software:         Java Sun Microsystems; Operating System
>> Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista
>>
>> i got rid from those fsck-ing windoze os several yrs ago, now i want
>> to free last of my boxes still running linux...uggh
>> ++pac
>
> The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
> On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
> The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on plan9).
> No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
> The scanner use smbclient.
>
>
> AZ.
>
>

Not a fun solution if you've already bought a scanner...

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[hiro]

I heard that you can free linux with a GNU.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
>> if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a
>> plan9 native box...
>>
>> ++pac
>>
>
> this is from your web:
> Requirement - Software:         Java Sun Microsystems; Operating System
> Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista
>
> i got rid from those fsck-ing windoze os several yrs ago, now i want
> to free last of my boxes still running linux...uggh
> ++pac
>
>

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[hiro]

Well, heroin is a lot of fun.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Andreas Zell <zell@imageaccess.de> wrote:
>> On 25 Nov., 13:34, tyap...@gmail.com (Peter A. Cejchan) wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a
>>> > plan9 native box...
>>>
>>> > ++pac
>>>
>>> this is from your web:
>>> Requirement - Software:         Java Sun Microsystems; Operating System
>>> Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista
>>>
>>> i got rid from those fsck-ing windoze os several yrs ago, now i want
>>> to free last of my boxes still running linux...uggh
>>> ++pac
>>
>> The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
>> On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
>> The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on plan9).
>> No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
>> The scanner use smbclient.
>>
>>
>> AZ.
>>
>>
>
> Not a fun solution if you've already bought a scanner...
>
>

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Peter A. Cejchan]

> No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
> The scanner use smbclient.



i repeat: i do not wish to have anything to do with windoze os, nor
with smb and other bullshit. sorry for such a rude wording... windoze
annoyed me along with other proprietary sw 20+ yrs.... i do share all
my outcome publicly... yes, i'm not a millionaire (and my outcome is
humble, YES), but several people already acknowledged my work... BTW,
if you read up to this point, i would design a book scanner in an
other way, especially, no parallel (to scanning lamp) covering glass,
but, rather, a roof-like glass construction *( to avoid book damage)
and a mirror + sw to convert it to rectangular page.... just my two
cents ;-)

sry if it's offending, but i'd like to see an open specification for
any , be it desktop, scanner. BTW, i consider supporting ONLY windoze
a violation of a free business contest law, IMHO....

sry 1 more, i just wted 2 know anybody uses a scnr on NATIVE p9....

++pac

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Peter A. Cejchan]

i dont understand you.... sry...

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[ron minnich]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 6:28 AM, Andreas Zell <zell@imageaccess.de> wrote:

> The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
> On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
> The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on plan9).
> No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
> The scanner use smbclient.

That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost always seems a
better deal than using USB. It's so cheap to put a network stack and
ethernet into these devices, and the network stack is doubtless less
software than a USB stack ...

ron

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Jack Norton]

Peter A. Cejchan wrote:
>> No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
>> The scanner use smbclient.
>
>
>
> i repeat: i do not wish to have anything to do with windoze os, nor
> with smb and other bullshit. sorry for such a rude wording... windoze
> annoyed me along with other proprietary sw 20+ yrs.... i do share all
> my outcome publicly... yes, i'm not a millionaire (and my outcome is
> humble, YES), but several people already acknowledged my work... BTW,
> if you read up to this point, i would design a book scanner in an
> other way, especially, no parallel (to scanning lamp) covering glass,
> but, rather, a roof-like glass construction *( to avoid book damage)
> and a mirror + sw to convert it to rectangular page.... just my two
> cents ;-)
>
> sry if it's offending, but i'd like to see an open specification for
> any , be it desktop, scanner. BTW, i consider supporting ONLY windoze
> a violation of a free business contest law, IMHO....
>
> sry 1 more, i just wted 2 know anybody uses a scnr on NATIVE p9....
>
> ++pac
>

I checked out the image access site, and it looks like you can scan to
FTP, email (built in MTA?), along with the smb method.
I actually think thats pretty nice.
What on earth is free business contest law (FBCL I suppose)?  Does that
mean if I only make parts for Ford motor cars, and I completely ignore
GM, and also the vast league of Kit Car DIY'ers, I am evil?
I like the book scanner idea though, you should jump on that.  Much more
elegant in my opinion to the 'book open, face up' with camera's from
afar method.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Brian L. Stuart]

> > The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
> > On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
> > The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on
> plan9).
> > No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
> > The scanner use smbclient.
> 
> That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost
> always seems a
> better deal than using USB. It's so cheap to put a network
> stack and
> ethernet into these devices, and the network stack is
> doubtless less
> software than a USB stack ...

I definitely agree with this part of it.  However, I would much
rather see the higher-level protocol be something that is simpler
and not tied to any commercial interests.  I don't even object
to having cifs as an option.  But when did it become popular
to say that ftp should not be an option for transferring a file?

BLS

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[John Floren]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Brian L. Stuart
<blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> > The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
>> > On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
>> > The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on
>> plan9).
>> > No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
>> > The scanner use smbclient.
>>
>> That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost
>> always seems a
>> better deal than using USB. It's so cheap to put a network
>> stack and
>> ethernet into these devices, and the network stack is
>> doubtless less
>> software than a USB stack ...
>
> I definitely agree with this part of it.  However, I would much
> rather see the higher-level protocol be something that is simpler
> and not tied to any commercial interests.  I don't even object
> to having cifs as an option.  But when did it become popular
> to say that ftp should not be an option for transferring a file?
>
> BLS
>
>
>

The basic little flatbed on the website can scan to FTP. I'm not sure
why the original poster chose to mention SMB and not FTP, but it's an
option.

Which is good, because I for one have never been able to get aquarela
working properly.

John
-- 
"Object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing" -- Rob Pike

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[hiro]

I'm using a comparable system here. I have to retrieve the scans with
a web interface (but as you say, better than nothing).
Standards...

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> > The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet.
>> > On the Touchscreen  is an Option "Scan to network".
>> > The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on
>> plan9).
>> > No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
>> > The scanner use smbclient.
>>
>> That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost
>> always seems a
>> better deal than using USB. It's so cheap to put a network
>> stack and
>> ethernet into these devices, and the network stack is
>> doubtless less
>> software than a USB stack ...
>
> I definitely agree with this part of it.  However, I would much
> rather see the higher-level protocol be something that is simpler
> and not tied to any commercial interests.  I don't even object
> to having cifs as an option.  But when did it become popular
> to say that ftp should not be an option for transferring a file?
>
> BLS
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[erik quanstrom]

> That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost always seems a
> better deal than using USB.

coraid agrees.  except for the "almost" part.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Anthony Sorace]

where's my ethernet mouse? ;-)

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:20, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
>> That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost always seems a
>> better deal than using USB.
>
> coraid agrees.  except for the "almost" part.
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[erik quanstrom]

On Wed Nov 25 12:49:12 EST 2009, anothy@gmail.com wrote:
> where's my ethernet mouse? ;-)
>

how to troll like a pro!

- erik

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Brian L. Stuart]

> > to having cifs as an option.  But when did it become
> popular
> > to say that ftp should not be an option for
> transferring a file?
> 
> The basic little flatbed on the website can scan to FTP.
> I'm not sure
> why the original poster chose to mention SMB and not FTP,
> but it's an
> option.

DOH!  That's what I get for opening my mouth before checking
things out.

Sorry for the noise,
BLS

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[ron minnich]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com> wrote:
> where's my ethernet mouse? ;-)

I thought it was called drawterm.

ron

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[W B Hacker]

Anthony Sorace wrote:
> where's my ethernet mouse? ;-)

If Plan9 can 'plumb' a remote sound card, (a questionable example long
publicized) I'm sure it can do so with a mouse.

'Questionable example', as I've never quite understood how I'd be able to hear
the output of a sound card whose physically-attached speakers where half-way
round the world (can we also 'plumb' the analog audio?) - even before the Tet
'68 offensive took away much of my hearing.

;-)

Bill


>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:20, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
>>> That's neat. It makes sense too, using ethernet almost always seems a
>>> better deal than using USB.
>> coraid agrees.  except for the "almost" part.
>>
>> - erik
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Charles Forsyth]

>If Plan9 can 'plumb' a remote sound card, (a questionable example long
>publicized) I'm sure it can do so with a mouse.

it isn't plumbing, but export/import, and it's useful.
i had a usable sound system on my r3000 indigo, but my PC had none.
on the pc, i imported the indigo's /dev and played sounds that way.
i could imagine uses even a continent away (alarm system imports remote
/dev and announces trouble). next door might be more useful.

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[cinap_lenrek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --]

what is the sense of this discussion by the way? here are no scanner drivers
for plan9 right know. nobody seems to be working at one.

nobody cares if you dont like the solutions/hacks to the problem.

so just stop this thread and write a driver if you need one.

--
cinap

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4257 bytes --]

From: "Peter A. Cejchan" <tyapca7@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Scanners
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:43:47 +0100
Message-ID: <e56a31560911250843q29ceba2aj76680554c41f3ddd@mail.gmail.com>

> No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server.
> The scanner use smbclient.



i repeat: i do not wish to have anything to do with windoze os, nor
with smb and other bullshit. sorry for such a rude wording... windoze
annoyed me along with other proprietary sw 20+ yrs.... i do share all
my outcome publicly... yes, i'm not a millionaire (and my outcome is
humble, YES), but several people already acknowledged my work... BTW,
if you read up to this point, i would design a book scanner in an
other way, especially, no parallel (to scanning lamp) covering glass,
but, rather, a roof-like glass construction *( to avoid book damage)
and a mirror + sw to convert it to rectangular page.... just my two
cents ;-)

sry if it's offending, but i'd like to see an open specification for
any , be it desktop, scanner. BTW, i consider supporting ONLY windoze
a violation of a free business contest law, IMHO....

sry 1 more, i just wted 2 know anybody uses a scnr on NATIVE p9....

++pac

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Anthony Sorace]

 erik  wrote:
// how to troll like a pro!

see, i was paying attention!

bill wrote:
// ...a questionable example...

if you have a lab of terminals but only one or two have a working
sound card and speakers, it can make good sense. first time i saw
that was a demo for something unrelated; we were in the real demo
before we'd realized what we'd done to get there.

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[W B Hacker]

Charles Forsyth wrote:
>> If Plan9 can 'plumb' a remote sound card, (a questionable example long
>> publicized) I'm sure it can do so with a mouse.
>
> it isn't plumbing, but export/import, and it's useful.
> i had a usable sound system on my r3000 indigo, but my PC had none.
> on the pc, i imported the indigo's /dev and played sounds that way.
> i could imagine uses even a continent away (alarm system imports remote
> /dev and announces trouble). next door might be more useful.
>
>

Welll - in the same room, it would seem 'sneakernet' would do well enough. Point
of fact, I use three kdb,vid,mouse and ... a swivel chair... less confusing than
sharing/switching among three disparate OS'en.

;-)

And I've actually considered remote audio I/O as part of a system for monitoring
a house that sits empty for months at a time, and responding to the doorbell ..
intrusion, et al ... but.. 'edge cases', both, if ever were. Easy enough to do
without Plan9. 'Too easy' to be fair.

'export/import' applied to remote resources - especially 'scarce' or expensive
ones (sound cards no longer are..) that could *send back* the results might make
a better present-day example.

If we could identify a few...

Couple of thoughts:

- hardware crypto devices  (cheap and cheerful in recent VIA CPU, seldom seen
otherwise)

- fast, specialty (expensive) graphics processing engines for storage to file,
or streaming-back not (necessarily) remote display. Ray tracing comes to mind...

- a 'ration' - free or purchased - of grid or supercomputing resources? (several
experts here - I'm not among them)

In any case, given that audio codecs are near-as-dammit ubiquitous on commodity,
and even 'server grade' and 'embedded' system boards these many years, I think a
better example than sharing a Soundblaster-equivalent is overdue.

I'm well aware that 'marketing' Plan9 is not really on anyone's radar here ..
but there could be a bit more done to convey the availability and value to the
like-minded potential fellow-travelers [1]. One benefit might include more
current device driver import/devel..

JM2CW

Bill

[1] FWIW - the 'Blue Gene' Plan9 work deserves better publicity. If/as/when one
hears that a certain 'hobby' alleged-OS is being run on such expensive kit, one
tends to question why it was even built...

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[W B Hacker]

Anthony Sorace wrote:
>  erik  wrote:
> // how to troll like a pro!
>
> see, i was paying attention!
>
> bill wrote:
> // ...a questionable example...
>
> if you have a lab of terminals but only one or two have a working
> sound card and speakers, it can make good sense.

I'm sure it did *at the time*...

But have you tried to find even an embedded nano board that has in-bridge-chip
audio codec's lately? Where 'lately' is now around ten years-plus? And
'speakers' have becoem tiny, effective - and also very cheap?

We've been chopping-off audio jacks on C3 & C7 MB for years to make quite decent
low-power 1U servers... too tall for the case otherwise.

PITA, that, but we don't use enough of 'em to order them 'unstuffed'.

> first time i saw
> that was a demo for something unrelated; we were in the real demo
> before we'd realized what we'd done to get there.
>
>

ACK .. but time marches on, and there *must* be a few 'shareable' things more
current than SB equivalents. How / why not get those examples onto the web page
as add-ons if not more germane replacements?

DISCLAIMER:

My audio gear largely sez 'Marantz' on the front panel, some dates as far back
as 1968, only the CD drive is newer than 1975, and CD aside, has SQRT-FA to do
with computers. Still sounds sweet though.

"Horses for courses"


Bill

[9fans] remote access to audio devices

[Sam Watkins]

VNC or similar "remote desktop" with sound support can be useful for things
like pair-programming over then internet, if you are working on an app or game
that uses sound.

Sam

Re: [9fans] remote access to audio devices

[W B Hacker]

Sam Watkins wrote:
> VNC or similar "remote desktop" with sound support can be useful for things
> like pair-programming over then internet, if you are working on an app or game
> that uses sound.
>
> Sam
>
>

VNC can (has been) be a butt-saver' - but pales in comparison to remote desktop
/ remote X for relative responsiveness and seamlessness.

(And we are speaking cross-platform, as Plan9 <=> Plan9 doesn't necessarily need
either..)

Bill

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

>> If Plan9 can 'plumb' a remote sound card, (a questionable example
>> long
>> publicized) I'm sure it can do so with a mouse.
>
> it isn't plumbing, but export/import, and it's useful.
> i had a usable sound system on my r3000 indigo, but my PC had none.
> on the pc, i imported the indigo's /dev and played sounds that way.
> i could imagine uses even a continent away (alarm system imports
> remote
> /dev and announces trouble). next door might be more useful.

Another useful example is drawterm.

[9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Tim Newsham]

> it isn't plumbing, but export/import, and it's useful.
> i had a usable sound system on my r3000 indigo, but my PC had none.
> on the pc, i imported the indigo's /dev and played sounds that way.
> i could imagine uses even a continent away (alarm system imports remote
> /dev and announces trouble). next door might be more useful.

I personally would like to see a lot more in the way of remote
resource access using 9p and I'm working towards that by writing
software for windows, linux and android.  Its a slightly different
use case than typical plan9 setup: ie my terminal has some
devices and I push them to a cpu server so programs run there
can access local resources.  Instead you have resources on several
machines that you own (and who doesnt own several machines these
days, heck even my non-tech relatives do) and you import them
to use them as necessary.  I've been playing around with sound
a lot as a starting point but I am hoping to move on to other
devices soon.  In my current prototypes I can import sound devices
from (android, windows, linux oss) onto another (android, windows,
linux oss) machine and either replace the current audio subsystem
or offer the remote audio as an additional audio device.

Why should all of your machines need a dvd drive, sound card, sdcard
reader, etc.?

Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Tim Newsham]

> I personally would like to see a lot more in the way of remote
> resource access using 9p and I'm working towards that by writing
> software for windows, linux and android.  Its a slightly different
> use case than typical plan9 setup: ie my terminal has some

I meant to add here that the planB guys probably have some
experience here that would be worth hearing.

Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com> wrote:
> where's my ethernet mouse? ;-)

Well, it already would be a good start if mice spoke 9P ;-)
(actually, that's what we're going to do on software/driver
side in the gpm-ng project)


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote:

Hi,

> I personally would like to see a lot more in the way of remote
> resource access using 9p and I'm working towards that by writing
> software for windows, linux and android.

actually, that's also my primary focus here. Not the OS itself,
but carry the amazing concepts to other worlds.

> I've been playing around with sound a lot as a starting point
> but I am hoping to move on to other devices soon.

Great! Do you have any (maybe usable) code yet ?


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Tim Newsham]

>> I've been playing around with sound a lot as a starting point
>> but I am hoping to move on to other devices soon.
>
> Great! Do you have any (maybe usable) code yet ?

I have lots of code, but its unpublished proprietary at
this point (aside from the bits that I've released on this
mailing list).

> cu

Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote:
> >>I've been playing around with sound a lot as a starting point
> >>but I am hoping to move on to other devices soon.
> >
> >Great! Do you have any (maybe usable) code yet ?
>
> I have lots of code, but its unpublished proprietary at
> this point (aside from the bits that I've released on this
> mailing list).

maybe you could put it into an git repo and publish it ?


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Scanners

[Steve Simon]

> Which is good, because I for one have never been able to get aquarela
> working properly.

I have used it quite a few times in the past. however every so often
I do find some weird part of the SMB spec which is not implemeted. That
said it usually works well.

I am happy to look at reports of problems as I have had dealings with
the CIFS protocol in the past.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] remote access to audio devices

[Steve Simon]

> VNC can (has been) be a butt-saver' - but pales in comparison to remote desktop
> / remote X for relative responsiveness and seamlessness.

My experience of serving a Windows desktop to a plan9 terminal
is that TightVNC with the DFMirage "Mirror driver" works really well.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] remote access to audio devices

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 1 Dec 2009, at 8:44 pm, Steve Simon wrote:

>> VNC can (has been) be a butt-saver' - but pales in comparison to
>> remote desktop
>> / remote X for relative responsiveness and seamlessness.
>
> My experience of serving a Windows desktop to a plan9 terminal
> is that TightVNC with the DFMirage "Mirror driver" works really well.

I've had responsiveness issues when the viewing machine hasn't enough
CPU power to decode the screen data in real-time. A lot of power
seems to be needed, my PDA, a 416MHz ARM can't cope with any
compression at all, I have to limit vncviewer to copyrect and raw
encodings only. Encoding doesn't seem to need half as much CPU power.
I ran Xvnc on a headless server with a 400MHz AMD K6 with no issues
that I recall.

All that gear was using either TightVNC or the plain vnc-x.y.z.tar.gz
from RealVNC. When using Vine Server on a 466MHz Apple screen updates
are not really adequate,  while the mouse pointer lags if I use the
VNC server supplied with OS X Tiger on the same machine. x0vncserver
is a known problem server which I haven't used, IIRC it basically
works by taking screenshots continuously and sending those.

Re: [9fans] remote access to audio devices

[Patrick Kelly]

On Dec 1, 2009, at 17:28, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

>
> On 1 Dec 2009, at 8:44 pm, Steve Simon wrote:
>
>>> VNC can (has been) be a butt-saver' - but pales in comparison to
>>> remote desktop
>>> / remote X for relative responsiveness and seamlessness.
>>
>> My experience of serving a Windows desktop to a plan9 terminal
>> is that TightVNC with the DFMirage "Mirror driver" works really well.
>
> I've had responsiveness issues when the viewing machine hasn't
> enough CPU power to decode the screen data in real-time. A lot of
> power seems to be needed, my PDA, a 416MHz ARM can't cope with any
> compression at all, I have to limit vncviewer to copyrect and raw
> encodings only. Encoding doesn't seem to need half as much CPU
> power. I ran Xvnc on a headless server with a 400MHz AMD K6 with no
> issues that I recall.

Now I don't have any expertise with VNC, but decoding anything, is
supposed to take less time than encoding it. I would check into that.
>
> All that gear was using either TightVNC or the plain vnc-
> x.y.z.tar.gz from RealVNC. When using Vine Server on a 466MHz Apple
> screen updates are not really adequate,  while the mouse pointer
> lags if I use the VNC server supplied with OS X Tiger on the same
> machine. x0vncserver is a known problem server which I haven't used,
> IIRC it basically works by taking screenshots continuously and
> sending those.
>

Re: [9fans] remote access to audio devices

[Sam Watkins]

Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>I've had responsiveness issues when the viewing machine hasn't  enough CPU
>power to decode the screen data in real-time. A lot of  power seems to be
>needed, my PDA, a 416MHz ARM can't cope with any  compression at all, I have
>to limit vncviewer to copyrect and raw  encodings only.

The Java tightvnc client works fine on my little eee pc, so I would think the
native client should run well enough on a toaster.  Maybe it uses floating
point and the ARM pda in question doesn't have hardware floating point.

Sam

Re: [9fans] remote access to audio devices

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 2 Dec 2009, at 3:00 am, Sam Watkins wrote:

> Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>> I've had responsiveness issues when the viewing machine hasn't
>> enough CPU
>> power to decode the screen data in real-time. A lot of  power
>> seems to be
>> needed, my PDA, a 416MHz ARM can't cope with any  compression at
>> all, I have
>> to limit vncviewer to copyrect and raw  encodings only.
>
> The Java tightvnc client works fine on my little eee pc, so I would
> think the
> native client should run well enough on a toaster.  Maybe it uses
> floating
> point and the ARM pda in question doesn't have hardware floating
> point.
>
> Sam
>


Java sometimes does turn up trumps where C code struggles on machines
which were recently considered powerful. Other examples would be web
browsing and Flash video. Now the web supports alternative style
sheets to present a simpler layout on mobile devices and Flash
supports a supports a video format which takes less work to decode -
YouTube offers it as an option. Perhaps the Java TightVNC client
declines the trickier encodings, exactly as I have to pass options to
the C client to do. By default the C TightVNC and RealVNC clients
assume "we can has cycles," which leaves me wondering quite what
situations have sufficient computing power with such measly bandwidth
as to make the 'heavy' encodings worthwhile.

Sorry for the late reply, had to ignore email to get other things in
order.

--
freedesktop.org, because unix doesn't make things harder enough.

Ethan Grammatikidis
eekee57@fastmail.fm

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> wrote:

> If you'd ever dropped a deck of punched *cards* you'd have thought paper
> tape was a huge advance, and more durable mylar even more so....

Actually, back when I was a little boy, I played a bit w/ some
learning toolkit which had spunchcards, for simple things like
switching signalling lights, etc (and yes: I managed to build
an optical reader, yeah :)). But I wouldn't consider this as
"computing" yet ;-o


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote:

> I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to put an 80x86 in a
> coffee machine.

Why not ?

About a year ago I've built an alternative firmware for some tiny
WLAN router which was based on an i386 clone SoC (IIRC made by TI).

Old-fashioned x86 isnt so bad for embedded as some might think.
If you don't need high data rates (and things like PCI), it's
relatively easy to build a board manually ;-)


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[hiro]

I once used a microwave designed that way. Couldn't find the meal on
the list and had to manually set time and power with 3 digital buttons
:(
It looked nice though. It was painted whine red with black/dark-brown
shades just like my eyes.

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Taj Khattra <taj.khattra@gmail.com> wrote:
>> They are running apache on a toaster? My goodness.
>
> http://funnies.paco.to/softEng.html    :)
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Eric Van Hensbergen]

On Jan 8, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Taj Khattra wrote:

>> They are running apache on a toaster? My goodness.
> 

Once upon a time we crammed a PPC board into a stainless steal toaster as a demo platform with the LCD popping out of the slot like a piece of toast.  I thought i had pictures, but can't for the life of me find them.

           -eric

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Taj Khattra]

> They are running apache on a toaster? My goodness.

http://funnies.paco.to/softEng.html    :)

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Jorden Mauro]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 5, 2010, at 6:52 AM, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
>
>> * Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee
>>> Denial of Service on it.
>>
>> That, of course, would be the very most worstcase that can ever happen ;-)
>
> I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to put an 80x86 in a coffee machine.
> Yes you could run WinCE, but without the 80x86 your not going to suffer from
> the hoards of virus's.

You have too much faith in humanity. It runs on a Via x86 clone:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/jan09/01-09cesfugoo.mspx

The article doesn't mention which flavor of Windows, but I don't think
WinCE runs on x86, does it?

>
> I'd like to see the day someone gets Linux or NetBSD booting on a coffee
> machine.

Seconded.

>>
>> cu
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/
>>
>> phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
>> mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Patrick Kelly]

On Jan 8, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Jan 5, 2010, at 6:52 AM, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
>>
>>> * Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee
>>>> Denial of Service on it.
>>>
>>> That, of course, would be the very most worstcase that can ever
>>> happen ;-)
>>
>> I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to put an 80x86 in a coffee
>> machine.
>> Yes you could run WinCE, but without the 80x86 your not going to
>> suffer from
>> the hoards of virus's.
>
> You have too much faith in humanity. It runs on a Via x86 clone:
Yes I do... *cringes in fear*
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/jan09/01-09cesfugoo.mspx
>
> The article doesn't mention which flavor of Windows, but I don't think
> WinCE runs on x86, does it?
Not sure, it might though.
>
>>
>> I'd like to see the day someone gets Linux or NetBSD booting on a
>> coffee
>> machine.
>
> Seconded.
>
>>>
>>> cu
>>> --
>>> ---
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/
>>>
>>> phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
>>> mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
>>> ---
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
>>> ---
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Patrick Kelly]

On Jan 8, 2010, at 10:29 AM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:

> They are running apache on a toaster? My goodness.
>
Way too powerfull of a toaster.
Overkill ftw!

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[hiro]

They are running apache on a toaster? My goodness.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Patrick Kelly]

On Jan 5, 2010, at 6:52 AM, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:

> * Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee
>> Denial of Service on it.
>
> That, of course, would be the very most worstcase that can ever
> happen ;-)

I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to put an 80x86 in a coffee
machine. Yes you could run WinCE, but without the 80x86 your not going
to suffer from the hoards of virus's.

I'd like to see the day someone gets Linux or NetBSD booting on a
coffee machine.
>
> cu
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/
>
> phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
> mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2108 bytes --]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 5, 2010, at 6:52 AM, Enrico Weigelt <weigelt@metux.de> wrote:
>
>  * Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee
>>> Denial of Service on it.
>>>
>>
>> That, of course, would be the very most worstcase that can ever happen ;-)
>>
>
> I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to put an 80x86 in a coffee machine.
> Yes you could run WinCE, but without the 80x86 your not going to suffer from
> the hoards of virus's.
>
> I'd like to see the day someone gets Linux or NetBSD booting on a coffee
> machine.
>
>
Toasters are at least finished...

http://netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/riz-toaster.jpg


>
>> cu
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/
>>
>> phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
>> mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>


--
And in the "Only Prolog programmers will find this funny" department:

Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: No.
 -- Ovid

   "By cosmic rule, as day yields night, so winter summer, war peace, plenty
famine. All things change. Air penetrates the lump of myrrh, until the
joining bodies die and rise again in smoke called incense."

   "Men do not know how that which is drawn in different directions
harmonises with itself. The harmonious structure of the world depends upon
opposite tension like that of the bow and the lyre."

   "This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god
or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire,
kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures"
-- Heraclitus

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3375 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Jorden Mauro <jrm8005@gmail.com> wrote:

> The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee
> Denial of Service on it.

That, of course, would be the very most worstcase that can ever happen ;-)


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:
> It's also very easy to run my toaster diskless.

hmm, I think the Toasters work w/ SSDs or maybe some kind of
nano corememory, at least the mechanical ones. This could also
their extreme suspectibility to certain radiations. But no idea
what causes that effect on the humanoid ones ... ;-o


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Tim Newsham]

> we found it's a lot easier doing it like
> in the octopus. we'll be happy to
> discuss any of it.

Did you find 9p adequate for the resource sharing you
did or did you have to alter the protocol or augment it
with other protocols?

Did you use the normal plan9 authentication mechanisms or
did you explore other authentication alternatives?  Were
all machines in a shared authentication domain or did you
support multiple authentication domains?

What did you do about machine or resource discovery?
Is there a mechanism to discover when machines or resources
are added or removed from the network?

What papers do you recommend looking at?

Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Jorden Mauro]

On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis
<eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> On 28 Nov 2009, at 2:28 pm, hiro wrote:
>
>> It's also very easy to run my toaster diskless. Does this say anything
>> about it's elegance or simplicity? I don't remember what my toaster
>> has to do with 9p, but nevermind.
>
> And somebody always mentions toasters! Or coffee machines... :D
>
> Actually, yes it does say a lot about a toaster's elegant simplicity: a
> toaster only has parts to do the job intended. At a minimum a switched
> heater, a sprung sliding bread carrier which also switches the heater, and a
> thermally-releasing latch for the slider. I have seen a toaster without even
> that much complexity; it had glass sides so you could see when your toast
> was done how you like it.

There is a toaster that burns a picture of a raincloud, sun,
snowflake, etc. depending
on the morning's forecast. There is also a coffee pot you can control
via ethernet.

The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee
Denial of Service
on it.

>
> Actually there is a link here. Things to share are increasingly bloated, and
> applications strangely seem to need access to every feature of the shared
> entity. 9p could perhaps help by presenting a device model with files for
> different capabilities, or something like that, but it is only half a
> solution. OTOH perhaps the need to access device features is not really
> strange. Requiring a whole postscript interpreter on your printer could be
> seen as just as strange, it was certainly very expensive to do a few years
> ago.
>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
>> <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 26 Nov 2009, at 8:53 pm, ron minnich wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
>>>>> a hard drive.
>>>>
>>>> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
>>>> ... not sure of the others.
>>>
>>> It's certainly possible to run OS X diskless, and knowing Apple it'll
>>> take
>>> less setting up than Linux. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 28 Nov 2009, at 2:28 pm, hiro wrote:

> It's also very easy to run my toaster diskless. Does this say anything
> about it's elegance or simplicity? I don't remember what my toaster
> has to do with 9p, but nevermind.

And somebody always mentions toasters! Or coffee machines... :D

Actually, yes it does say a lot about a toaster's elegant simplicity:
a toaster only has parts to do the job intended. At a minimum a
switched heater, a sprung sliding bread carrier which also switches
the heater, and a thermally-releasing latch for the slider. I have
seen a toaster without even that much complexity; it had glass sides
so you could see when your toast was done how you like it.

Actually there is a link here. Things to share are increasingly
bloated, and applications strangely seem to need access to every
feature of the shared entity. 9p could perhaps help by presenting a
device model with files for different capabilities, or something like
that, but it is only half a solution. OTOH perhaps the need to access
device features is not really strange. Requiring a whole postscript
interpreter on your printer could be seen as just as strange, it was
certainly very expensive to do a few years ago.

>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
> <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> On 26 Nov 2009, at 8:53 pm, ron minnich wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom
>>> <quanstro@quanstro.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
>>>> a hard drive.
>>>
>>> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
>>> ... not sure of the others.
>>
>> It's certainly possible to run OS X diskless, and knowing Apple
>> it'll take
>> less setting up than Linux. ;)
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[hiro]

It's also very easy to run my toaster diskless. Does this say anything
about it's elegance or simplicity? I don't remember what my toaster
has to do with 9p, but nevermind.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
<eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> On 26 Nov 2009, at 8:53 pm, ron minnich wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
>>> a hard drive.
>>
>> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
>> ... not sure of the others.
>
> It's certainly possible to run OS X diskless, and knowing Apple it'll take
> less setting up than Linux. ;)
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 26 Nov 2009, at 8:53 pm, ron minnich wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom
> <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>
>> it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
>> a hard drive.
>
> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
> ... not sure of the others.

It's certainly possible to run OS X diskless, and knowing Apple it'll
take less setting up than Linux. ;)

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 26 Nov 2009, at 9:18 pm, W B Hacker wrote:

> Tim Newsham wrote:
>>> or the cannonical example, a hard drive.
>> I intentionally avoided this one because two things that modern
>> OSs do know how to share (at least a little) are:
>>   - filesystems
>>   - printers
>> Its just all the other stuff that they haven bothered to tackle
>> yet, except in very specific applications (ie. remote desktop
>> access).
>>> - erik
>> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com
>
> Actually, they have ...
>
> 'Big iron' quite aside [1], it was common (at least) as far back as
> CP/M 2.X to share peripherals such as prom-blasters, text-to-speech
> gear, terminals, serial and parallel ports across multiple
> machines. Not everything needed was in the as-shipped 'OS', but it
> was not hard to code the rest.
>
> By the time Netware, IBM OS/2 (and perhaps Win-?? - not my area of
> expertise) came along it was tick-the-box easier to share, for
> example, a modem or scanner, just as easily as a printer or storage
> device. IOW - streaming 'near real time' devices as well as spooled
> or (actual) file-based services.
>
> Plan9 didn't 'invent' any of this.
>
> Plan9 just prioritized it and provided a more appropriate
> infrastructure and toolset to make for easier and more ubiquitous
> use of it all.
>
> That one or more folks are now seeing a need to reinvent that
> particular set of wheels is curious, as it never actually went away
> - Plan9 or otherwise.

I think this sharing dropped off drastically at some point in fairly
recent history. I took a look at Apple's list of services and devices
which can be shared with a checkbox or two; it really was a much
shorter list than I thought, and I'm sure the most convenient Linux
distro has a couple less items again.

Windows I'm not so sure about, but I don't think you have to go back
many years to find the time when Windows 98 was the most common
Windows, and what did that offer to share? Printers and files only,
if I remember right.

>
> Perhaps the old saw about 'ethnics' (pick yer own favorite..) and
> garbage.
>
> "We never actually throw anything away, we just kick it from place
> to place until its gets lost."
>
> Bill
>
> [1] AN/FSQ-7 and AN/GSA-51, could of course 'share' their resources
> - or at lest take-over, one from another. But that sort of thing
> has been MIL-SPEC since about 8,000 years before a certain French
> Colonel of Dragoons gave up his military career to lay the
> groundwork for the Plan9 user interface.
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[erik quanstrom]

> >i wasn't talking about aoe.  but since you are, what
> >exactly is difficult about the plan 9 aoe driver?
> >
> >- erik
> >
> >
> >
> the installer, or was last time I looked, I did try to make one but got
> so far and decided on a "better way" which is on my large pile of todo.
> I made a "install to this drive" script that did away with the installer
> completely but I haven't tested it much yet.

good point.  i'll take a look at that.  installing isn't
something i typically do.  let alone onto aoe.
really just need to add a configure drive step.

- erik

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[matt]

>i wasn't talking about aoe.  but since you are, what
>exactly is difficult about the plan 9 aoe driver?
>
>- erik
>
>
>
the installer, or was last time I looked, I did try to make one but got
so far and decided on a "better way" which is on my large pile of todo.
I made a "install to this drive" script that did away with the installer
completely but I haven't tested it much yet.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[W B Hacker]

Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> * W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> wrote:
>> Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) wrote:
>>>> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
>>>> ... not sure of the others.
>>> I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
>>> be done.  These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
>>> Windows Server and installation tools fu.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Don't get me started on diode plugboard 'ROM', mercury or nickel-iron delay
>> lines and 'upgrading' to mag drum memory now...
>
> This is one of the days when this list feels like an veteran meeting ;-)
> I'm probably one of the youngest here, i didn't have the honour to do
> my first steps on punchtapes ;-o
>
>
> cu

Heh!

If you'd ever dropped a deck of punched *cards* you'd have thought paper tape
was a huge advance, and more durable mylar even more so....

;-)

Wasn't all that slow, either. Mannesman-Tally punched it at 300 cps and upwards,
many optical readers read it back at over 1,000 cps.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[erik quanstrom]

> >it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
> >a hard drive.
> >
> >
> I've done Linux over AoE, that was flawless once working. Lack of AoE
> aware installers made it interesting.
>
> Plan9 is a fiddle too
>
> I didn't try the MacOSX or Windows AoE initiators.
>
> You need plenty of Foo to do any of them tbh.

i wasn't talking about aoe.  but since you are, what
exactly is difficult about the plan 9 aoe driver?

- erik

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> wrote:
> Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) wrote:
> >>linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
> >>... not sure of the others.
> >
> >I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
> >be done.  These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
> >Windows Server and installation tools fu.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Don't get me started on diode plugboard 'ROM', mercury or nickel-iron delay
> lines and 'upgrading' to mag drum memory now...

This is one of the days when this list feels like an veteran meeting ;-)
I'm probably one of the youngest here, i didn't have the honour to do
my first steps on punchtapes ;-o


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[matt]

erik quanstrom wrote:

>On Thu Nov 26 15:36:39 EST 2009, newsham@lava.net wrote:
>
>
>>>or the cannonical example, a hard drive.
>>>
>>>
>>I intentionally avoided this one because two things that modern
>>OSs do know how to share (at least a little) are:
>>   - filesystems
>>   - printers
>>
>>
>
>it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
>a hard drive.
>
>
I've done Linux over AoE, that was flawless once working. Lack of AoE
aware installers made it interesting.

Plan9 is a fiddle too

I didn't try the MacOSX or Windows AoE initiators.

You need plenty of Foo to do any of them tbh.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
> > linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
> > ... not sure of the others.
>
> I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
> be done.  These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
> Windows Server and installation tools fu.

Yep. Around that time we ran diskless win-3.x and win95 via Novell.
A bit tricky to setup, but it worked.


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Enrico Weigelt]

* erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> On Thu Nov 26 15:36:39 EST 2009, newsham@lava.net wrote:
> > > or the cannonical example, a hard drive.
> >
> > I intentionally avoided this one because two things that modern
> > OSs do know how to share (at least a little) are:
> >    - filesystems
> >    - printers
>
> it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
> a hard drive.

Linux runs fine diskless. Done it already 15 years ago ...


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 phone:  +49 36207 519931  email: weigelt@metux.de
 mobile: +49 174 7066481   icq:   210169427         skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[W B Hacker]

Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) wrote:
>> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
>> ... not sure of the others.
>
> I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
> be done.  These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
> Windows Server and installation tools fu.
>
>
>

Don't get me started on diode plugboard 'ROM', mercury or nickel-iron delay
lines and 'upgrading' to mag drum memory now...

Time was when a power user's *personal* computer (~US$ 25,000+ in 1968-69
dollars [1]) had the full-house complement of RAM it could hold.

All 8 kilobytes of it.

;-)

.. and we controlled satellites and serious weapons systems with those as well
as digitizing electro cardiograms and such.

More seriously - there's another probable reason Plan9 hasn't found greater take-up.

No need to share when there are enough sheep to go around...


Bill

[1] For which price one could buy anywhere from four to twelve new automobiles
at the time.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[W B Hacker]

Tim Newsham wrote:
>> or the cannonical example, a hard drive.
>
> I intentionally avoided this one because two things that modern
> OSs do know how to share (at least a little) are:
>   - filesystems
>   - printers
>
> Its just all the other stuff that they haven bothered to tackle
> yet, except in very specific applications (ie. remote desktop access).
>
>> - erik
>
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com
>
>

Actually, they have ...

'Big iron' quite aside [1], it was common (at least) as far back as CP/M 2.X to
share peripherals such as prom-blasters, text-to-speech gear, terminals, serial
and parallel ports across multiple machines. Not everything needed was in the
as-shipped 'OS', but it was not hard to code the rest.

By the time Netware, IBM OS/2 (and perhaps Win-?? - not my area of expertise)
came along it was tick-the-box easier to share, for example, a modem or scanner,
just as easily as a printer or storage device. IOW - streaming 'near real time'
devices as well as spooled or (actual) file-based services.

Plan9 didn't 'invent' any of this.

Plan9 just prioritized it and provided a more appropriate infrastructure and
toolset to make for easier and more ubiquitous use of it all.

That one or more folks are now seeing a need to reinvent that particular set of
wheels is curious, as it never actually went away - Plan9 or otherwise.

Perhaps the old saw about 'ethnics' (pick yer own favorite..) and garbage.

"We never actually throw anything away, we just kick it from place to place
until its gets lost."

Bill

[1] AN/FSQ-7 and AN/GSA-51, could of course 'share' their resources - or at lest
take-over, one from another. But that sort of thing has been MIL-SPEC since
about 8,000 years before a certain French Colonel of Dragoons gave up his
military career to lay the groundwork for the Plan9 user interface.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX)]

> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
> ... not sure of the others.

I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
be done.  These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
Windows Server and installation tools fu.

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[ron minnich]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
> a hard drive.

linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
... not sure of the others.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

we found it's a lot easier doing it like
in the octopus. we'll be happy to
discuss any of it.

On 26/11/2009, at 21:34, newsham@lava.net wrote:

>> I personally would like to see a lot more in the way of remote
>> resource access using 9p and I'm working towards that by writing
>> software for windows, linux and android. Its a slightly different
>> use case than typical plan9 setup: ie my terminal has some
>
> I meant to add here that the planB guys probably have some
> experience here that would be worth hearing.
>
> Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com
>
> [/mail/box/nemo/msgs/200911/1912]

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[erik quanstrom]

On Thu Nov 26 15:36:39 EST 2009, newsham@lava.net wrote:
> > or the cannonical example, a hard drive.
>
> I intentionally avoided this one because two things that modern
> OSs do know how to share (at least a little) are:
>    - filesystems
>    - printers

it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without
a hard drive.

- erik

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[Tim Newsham]

> or the cannonical example, a hard drive.

I intentionally avoided this one because two things that modern
OSs do know how to share (at least a little) are:
   - filesystems
   - printers

Its just all the other stuff that they haven bothered to tackle
yet, except in very specific applications (ie. remote desktop access).

> - erik

Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com

Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]

[erik quanstrom]

> Why should all of your machines need a dvd drive, sound card, sdcard
> reader, etc.?

or the cannonical example, a hard drive.

- erik