From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:56:57 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517740b1213a4f504a7cc6587 Subject: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fe7ae2d8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001517740b1213a4f504a7cc6587 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 hi, folks, please, look at this: http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share your opinion; the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea the window borders are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the window scrollbars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool could be improved, of course however, not a bad idea, IMHO I always wanted to get rid of all that pixel-consuming stuff... another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for vert/hor scrolling, but I feel that there's a strong opposition to using kb for anything else than character input... best regards, ++pac --001517740b1213a4f504a7cc6587 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi, folks,

please, look at this:=C2=A0 http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cej= chan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share your opinion;
the main thin= g is the right-hand side with the slider
and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea
the window borde= rs are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the window
scrollb= ars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool
could be impro= ved, of course
however, not a bad idea, IMHO
I always wanted to get rid of all that pix= el-consuming stuff...
another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for = vert/hor scrolling, but I feel that there's a strong opposition to usin= g kb for anything else than character input...

best regards,
++pac
--001517740b1213a4f504a7cc6587-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:14:46 +0200 Message-ID: From: simon softnet To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be864c9b1f304a7cca479 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fe978a14-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0015174be864c9b1f304a7cca479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't like it, but it's just my humble opinion :) On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote: > hi, folks, > > please, look at this: > http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share > your opinion; > the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider > and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea > the window borders are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the > window > scrollbars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool > could be improved, of course > however, not a bad idea, IMHO > I always wanted to get rid of all that pixel-consuming stuff... > another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for vert/hor scrolling, but I > feel that there's a strong opposition to using kb for anything else than > character input... > > best regards, > ++pac > --0015174be864c9b1f304a7cca479 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't like it, but it's just my humble opinion :)

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
hi, folks,

please, look at this:=A0 = http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.pn= g, and share your opinion;
the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider
and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea
the window borde= rs are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the window
scrollb= ars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool
could be impro= ved, of course
however, not a bad idea, IMHO
I always wanted to get rid of all that pix= el-consuming stuff...
another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for = vert/hor scrolling, but I feel that there's a strong opposition to usin= g kb for anything else than character input...

best regards,
++pac

--0015174be864c9b1f304a7cca479-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:21:25 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fe9ceba8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 You know page, right? acme window borders are also not active. Instead we have that little box at the top to change size. I think it's ok for them to adapt plan9 ideas. But I always hated the feel of stuff popping up somewhere at random. I'd rather buy more pixels. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:23:04 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fea24170-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 And if stuff is still active what can you use the pixels for besides stupid wallpapers. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:25:29 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517740b121a4c9a04a7cccb9a Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fea73fea-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001517740b121a4c9a04a7cccb9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable please, be more verbous... i personally like everything that saves my pixels dedicated to anotherb job= , but i may be wrong, and it is only IMHO, as usually... i spent much time also by thinking how to get rid of acme's tag lines (i love acme so much, indeed) however, i was not able to conceive anything but a command frame [=3D=3Dwin= dow] inside of Acme... if only were i skilled enough to write it, and test it... i am not :-( Thanks for your opinion, anyway, best, ++pac On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:14 PM, simon softnet wrote= : > I don't like it, but it's just my humble opinion :) > > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peter A. Cejchan wrot= e: > >> hi, folks, >> >> please, look at this: >> http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share >> your opinion; >> the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider >> and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea >> the window borders are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of th= e >> window >> scrollbars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool >> could be improved, of course >> however, not a bad idea, IMHO >> I always wanted to get rid of all that pixel-consuming stuff... >> another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for vert/hor scrolling, bu= t >> I feel that there's a strong opposition to using kb for anything else th= an >> character input... >> >> best regards, >> ++pac >> > > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Petr A. Cejchan =E4=BD=A9=E6=81=9D =E5=9D=A0=E6=99=83 Office: cej@gli.cas.cz Home: tyapca7@gmail.com Web: http://home.gli.cas.cz/cej/www/ http://www.facebook.com/cejchan Work: +420-233 087 237 Home/SMS: not yet (thanks God) ICQ: 583000501 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D --001517740b121a4c9a04a7cccb9a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable please, be more verbous...
i personally like everything that saves my pi= xels dedicated to anotherb job,
but i may be wrong, and it is only IMHO,= as usually...
i spent much time also by thinking how to get rid of acme= 's tag lines
(i love acme so much, indeed)
however, i was not able to conceive anythi= ng but a command frame [=3D=3Dwindow] inside of Acme... if only were i skil= led enough to write it, and test it... i am not :-(
Thanks for your opin= ion, anyway,
best,

++pac


On Mon, Jul 11, 20= 11 at 5:14 PM, simon softnet <ph.softnet@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't like it, but it's just my humble opinion :)
=


On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 a= t 4:56 PM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
hi, folks,

please, look at this:=C2= =A0 http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widget= s.png, and share your opinion;
the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider
and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea
the window borde= rs are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the window
scrollb= ars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool
could be impro= ved, of course
however, not a bad idea, IMHO
I always wanted to get rid of all that pix= el-consuming stuff...
another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for = vert/hor scrolling, but I feel that there's a strong opposition to usin= g kb for anything else than character input...

best regards,
++pac




--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Petr A. Cejchan
=E4=BD=A9=E6=81=9D =E5=9D=A0= =E6=99=83

--001517740b121a4c9a04a7cccb9a-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:35:46 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f9a4c2e1f01004a7ccef04 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: feaee90c-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001485f9a4c2e1f01004a7ccef04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 ah, page, yes!! if only we could have editable menus (i mean something like an acme tagline) ... there's a strange ambiguity: acme-style, or rio-style.... On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:21 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > You know page, right? > acme window borders are also not active. Instead we have that little > box at the top to change size. > I think it's ok for them to adapt plan9 ideas. But I always hated the > feel of stuff popping up somewhere at random. it is not random... it is like a different cursor appears when you place it at the corner of the active window > I'd rather buy more > pixels. > > for my >100MB photographs (acquired via scanner, of course) i just can't buy more pixels, at least in my lifetime :-( thanks, ++pac --001485f9a4c2e1f01004a7ccef04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ah, page, yes!! if only we could have editable menus (i mean something like= an acme tagline) ... there's a strange ambiguity: acme-style, or rio-s= tyle....

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:21 PM,= hiro <23hiro= @googlemail.com> wrote:
You know page, right?
acme window borders are also not active. Instead we have that little
box at the top to change size.
I think it's ok for them to adapt plan9 ideas. But I always hated the feel of stuff popping up somewhere at random.
it is not r= andom... it is like a different cursor appears when you place it at the cor= ner of the active window

=C2=A0
I'd rather buy more
pixels.

for my >100MB photographs (acquired via scanner, of c= ourse) i just can't buy more pixels, at least in my lifetime :-(
thanks,
++pac

--001485f9a4c2e1f01004a7ccef04-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:43:28 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.0.0-rc6-l34+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: feb59a9a-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Monday 11 of July 2011 17:35:46 Peter A. Cejchan wrote: > > for my >100MB photographs (acquired via scanner, of course) i just can't > buy more pixels, at least in my lifetime :-( you can get a 9MPix LCD display (IBM T221) at reasonable price: http://cgi.ebay.com/-/200629133201 =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:12:19 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec52999cf95726a04a7cd7253 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fed2f70c-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --bcaec52999cf95726a04a7cd7253 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > http://cgi.ebay.com/-/200629133201 you're joking, aint you?? $1,100 for this... [you obviously have no idea about our salaries here, the former(?) East ;-) ...] and what about the 9-compatible video card capable of serving this....?? however, my point was another: aint you annoyed by needless things that just consume your pixels?? can't it all be done more efficiently?? even if the win borders were 1px wide, wont it be more elegant at least? and why should acme's tagline (s) consume so much pixels, if they can be [possibly] replaced by an [editable] command frame ... yes, i cant prove it, sust a silly idea... butb still feeling a disconcert between rio and acme ui paradigm... cant it be unified? thanks for listening, ++pac --bcaec52999cf95726a04a7cd7253 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=C2=A0= http://cgi.ebay.com/-/200629133201

you're joking, aint you?= ?=C2=A0 $1,100 for this... [you obviously have no idea about our salaries h= ere, the former(?) East=C2=A0 ;-) ...]
and what about the 9-compatible video card capable of serving this....?? ho= wever, my point was another: aint you annoyed by needless things that just = consume your pixels?? can't it all be done more efficiently?? even if t= he win borders were 1px wide, wont it be more elegant at least? and why sho= uld acme's tagline (s) consume so much pixels, if they can be [possibly= ] replaced by an [editable] command frame ... yes, i cant prove it, sust a = silly idea... butb still feeling a disconcert between rio and acme ui=C2=A0= paradigm... cant it be unified?

thanks for listening,
++pac




--bcaec52999cf95726a04a7cd7253-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:56:30 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jacob Todd To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555b19a97cbbd04a7ce1016 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fee499e4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --00032555b19a97cbbd04a7ce1016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Jul 11, 2011 12:14 PM, "Peter A. Cejchan" wrote >however, my point was another: aint you annoyed by needless things that just consume your pixels?? can't it all be done more efficiently?? even if the win borders were 1px wide, wont it be more elegant at least? and why should acme's tagline (s) consume so much pixels, if they can be [possibly] replaced by an [editable] command frame ... yes, i cant prove it, sust a silly idea... butb still feeling a disconcert between rio and acme ui paradigm... cant it be unified? No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's tag lines. --00032555b19a97cbbd04a7ce1016 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Jul 11, 2011 12:14 PM, "Peter A. Cejchan" wrote
>however, my point was another: aint you annoyed by needless things that= just consume your pixels?? can't it all be done more efficiently?? eve= n if the win borders were 1px wide, wont it be more elegant at least? and w= hy should acme's tagline (s) consume so much pixels, if they can be [po= ssibly] replaced by an [editable] command frame ... yes, i cant prove it, s= ust a silly idea... butb still feeling a disconcert between rio and acme ui= =C2=A0 paradigm... cant it be unified?

No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's = tag lines.

--00032555b19a97cbbd04a7ce1016-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:21:16 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f9a4c229814a04a7ce6925 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fef96914-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001485f9a4c229814a04a7ce6925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 sorry, i dont understand. if i have >20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc.... dont you perceive it as sucking?? ++pac > > No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's tag > lines. > --001485f9a4c229814a04a7ce6925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sorry, i dont understand. if i have >20 files open in acme (yes, i'm= silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by= useless taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look e= tc.... dont you perceive it as sucking??
++pac

> No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme&#= 39;s tag lines.


--001485f9a4c229814a04a7ce6925-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:25:23 -0700 Message-ID: From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: fefee8ee-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote: > sorry, i dont understand. if i have >20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), > and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless > taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc.... > dont you perceive it as sucking?? is the right click not good enough? ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:28:01 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.0.0-rc4-l38+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201107111928.02247.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff14a3fa-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Monday 11 July 2011 19:21:16 Peter A. Cejchan wrote: > sorry, i dont understand. if i have >20 files open in acme (yes, i'm > silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by > useless taglines (...) you can hide all-but-one taglines with right- (rathre than middle-) click on tagline's `layout box' (the square to the left) -- dexen deVries > (...) I never use more than 800Mb of RAM. I am running Linux, > a browser and a terminal. rjbond3rd in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2692529 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:28:03 -0700 From: Lyndon Nerenberg To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (OSX 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff0e7b60-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > sorry, i dont understand. if i have >20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), > and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless > taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc.... > dont you perceive it as sucking?? I do this all the time. Make two columns, open one file in each, then button-3 on each frame's layout box to make it take over the entire vertical space. --lyndon From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <201107111743.28781.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:28:49 -0600 Message-ID: From: andrey mirtchovski To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff2139bc-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Peter, take a look at the scrdump.c program at http://mirtchovski.com/p9/xscr/ -- it takes a snapshot of the screen, resizes it and places it somewhere on that same screen. It can easily be modified to take snapshots of windows and place them in other windows. It's not far from being a "preview". http://mirtchovski.com/p9/xscr/scrdump.gif andrey On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote: > sorry, i dont understand. if i have >20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), > and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless > taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc.... > dont you perceive it as sucking?? > ++pac > >> >> > No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's tag >> > lines. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201107111928.02247.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <201107111928.02247.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:15:04 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f9a4c28001b904a7d9384a Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff6a3d60-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001485f9a4c28001b904a7d9384a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > you can hide all-but-one taglines with right- (rathre than middle-) click > on > tagline's `layout box' (the square to the left) > > > yes, i know, and i am aware also of the two-column method that andrey suggested above; however, a wide screen (1980) would then be nice... for now, i drag all but two windows to another (minimized) column to have two files open vertically (with no other taglines) acme is cool and i would like it (fullscreen) as a ui, were it capable to display images within frames, ala abaco thank you all for responses, and special thanks to andrey for pointing me at scrdump.c, i will explore peter --001485f9a4c28001b904a7d9384a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> yo= u can hide all-but-one taglines with right- (rathre than middle-) click on<= br> tagline's `layout box' (the square to the left)


yes, i know, and i am aware also of the two-c= olumn method that andrey suggested above; however, a wide screen (1980) wou= ld then be nice... for now, i drag all but two windows to another (minimize= d) column to have two files open vertically (with no other taglines)

acme is cool and i would like it (fullscreen) as a ui, were it capable = to display images within frames, ala abaco

thank you all for respons= es, and special thanks to andrey for pointing me at scrdump.c,=C2=A0 i will= explore

peter

--001485f9a4c28001b904a7d9384a-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:23:53 +0300 Message-ID: From: Sergey Kish To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff70570e-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Personally I find that interface awful. One third of the place occupied by WIMP controls. Tasteless. PS: Gestures requires no controls. On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote: > hi, folks, > > please, look at this: > http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share your > opinion; > the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider > and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea > the window borders are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the > window > scrollbars are thin, too, with a "pop-out" slider tool > could be improved, of course > however, not a bad idea, IMHO > I always wanted to get rid of all that pixel-consuming stuff... > another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for vert/hor scrolling, but I > feel that there's a strong opposition to using kb for anything else than > character input... > > best regards, > ++pac > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:18:27 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015176f197e51a5c604a7dbc8ff Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff76b1e4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0015176f197e51a5c604a7dbc8ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > occupied by WIMP controls. Tasteless. sorry, i had just the slider idea on my mind, sending a better img: http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/slider.png still tasateless? > PS: Gestures requires no controls. i didn't get it: english is not my mothertongue :-( regards, ++pac --0015176f197e51a5c604a7dbc8ff Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>=C2=A0 occupied by WIMP controls. Ta= steless.

sorry, i had just the slider idea on my mind, sending a bet= ter img:
http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/slide= r.png
still tasateless?

> PS: Gestures requires no controls.
i didn't get it: english is not my mothertongue :-(

regards, += +pac

--0015176f197e51a5c604a7dbc8ff-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:18:06 +0100 From: Ethan Grammatikidis To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff86c868-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating mar= gins? Do they actually never try to read anything using the software they p= roduce? OTHER than PDFs? I use a window manager with only 1-pixel side bord= ers, and terminals with no scrollbar at all and margins reduced to virtuall= y nothing by the idiot developers. I can't have two terminals overlapping i= f the right-hand one is on top; I can't read anything in it! That's not an = increase of usable screen area, it's a reduction! Books printed as cheap as= possible, where every penny counts in the manufacture, have margins! I spent a long time badly wanting more screen area and eventually achieved = it, only to come all the way back down again. My peak screen sizes were fir= st a 21" CRT at 1600x1200. That was okay, I did different things in differe= nt parts of the screen, but really mostly only used about 30% of the area f= or my currently active task, the rest being little more than storage of win= dows. I had IRC chat constantly visible, but at the time didn't chat an awf= ul lot. My 2nd peak involved two screens, a 1680x1050 and a 1280x1024, the latter p= urchased very cheaply in my quest for more area. By this time I had an extr= emely active online social life and was also as involved as I could be with= programming and open-source projects. I made myself ill, I felt horribly d= rained. I got nothing done. I had to remove the 1280x1024 monitor and put u= p with IRC being hidden whenever I wanted to concentrate on something in th= e slightest. Sometimes I would focus on IRC instead, but I wouldn't keep an= eye on it all the time. I lost some net-friends by not keeping an eye on I= RC all the time because I missed seeing when they were on, but at least I c= ould get something done. Also, when I did catch up with my friends on IRC I= could give them more time. Now, I've come all the way down to a tiny 1024x600 screen, and except for m= issing out on the full height of some art, I'm quite happy! I check on the = workspace with IRC exactly as and when I have attention to spare, rather th= an having it hinting at me out of the corner of my eye all the time. I'll say one thing for huge screens. They make any window management model = in the world seem all right. They crappiest window management systems are f= ine with a huge screen. This is with screens 1600x1200 and greater, 1680x10= 50 won't cut it with a crappy WM. :) At 1024x600, any window I'm doing anyt= hing serious in is maximized with no visible borders. I use WindowMaker bec= ause I can easily set any window to such full-screen maximization (I don't = want it for all windows), and it retains a 1-pixel area along the top with = iconify and close regions. Windows I'm not using are iconified, which notif= ies the program not to even try to draw into the window, an excellent idea,= I think. I have no task bar, if I want to switch I iconify the window I'm = working on and look up the one I want in the icon stack. Sometimes alt-tab = is a better option, but not often. Miscellaneous junk tends to get run in t= he chat space where there is spare screen space to right-click the backgrou= nd. Sometimes I need a floating window over a browser, and that's perfectly= natural, although it does require alt-tab (actually winkey-tab on my setup= ). The whole setup works, is efficient despite Windowmaker bugs, is pleasan= t to look at, and the only things which really bother me are looking at som= e art and the lack of margins in terminals and Gtk+ software produced by at= tention deficit teenagers who haven't been around long enough to learn bett= er, and are determined to learn the hard way. If you really are attention deficit -- I was terribly so when I started usi= ng Linux and would forget a short command in the process of switching from = one VT to another (not kidding), then invest in a 1680x1050 monitor. I see = one on ebay for =A355, a very small investment unless you really are living= in poverty to the point of struggling to buy enough food. You will have en= ough space for a 1024-pixel-wide browser window for documentation or whatev= er and two terminals next to it with nice clear text. You know what? I used a Zaurus for reading plain-text ebooks for a long tim= e. It had a 4" screen, absolutely bloody minute. Despite the screen being c= apable of rendering a very crisp 80 columns I used a larger font for a 63-c= olumn terminal, and on top of that adjusted my parameters to fmt and fed th= e output through sed to give me 2 columns of left margin and 3 columns on t= he right, just to make it nice to read, and it was very nice. None of this = "I prefer paper books" for me, I don't need it, I just need margins. Books = have margins. Returning to the topic of the thread, a scrollbar can form a margin of sort= s if it's not too bold. A left-side scrollbar would cure my present trouble= with overlapping terminals and indeed does so on 9terms. Regular terminals= are still a bit of a problem, for which I blame the extremely dense idiots= working on LXDE, and me for trying LXDE without looking into what it was m= ade of. :) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.0.0-rc6-l34+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff91e0b8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 14:18:06 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating m= argins? ((snip)) surely you're joking, mr. feynman? @_@ or are you actually sitting on an ivory tower made of 10MPix displays? as long as we suffer the 1...2MPix displays, we are forced to save every an= d each pixel. paper is 300DPI (practically, because that's average human vision at reason= able distance). we need 300DPI displays, of some 17...22 inch size, on ever= y desk and in every device to be able to commit to margins=20 the day i get >10MPix i'll be the first in line to follow your advice and g= et some margins. on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins= are synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful conte= nt. =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:00:14 +0200 Message-ID: From: yy To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff96f828-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 2011/7/12 dexen deVries : > on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins are synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful content. > http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/ -- - yiyus || JGL . From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4E1C4A77.7040302@0x6a.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:21:59 -0500 From: Jack Norton User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff9d0b6e-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 yy wrote: > 2011/7/12 dexen deVries : >> on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins are synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful content. >> > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/ > > This made my morning, thank you. On a related note, I was taught in my technical writing class in college to preserve a "small sea of white space" in technical documents. This allowed the reader to not get lost in words. It was aimed squarely at the "justified" paragraph alignment as named by MS Word and how stupid it looks. I personally subscribe to that idea whole heartedly. In a sense, margins to add to such a technique. Obviously though, it can be over done. -Jack From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:40:19 +0100 From: Ethan Grammatikidis To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <20110712144019.0edf4b79@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ffaad0be-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 dexen deVries wrote: > On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 14:18:06 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > > MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? ((snip)) > > surely you're joking, mr. feynman? @_@ > or are you actually sitting on an ivory tower made of 10MPix displays? Did you not read ANY of what I wrote? > > as long as we suffer the 1...2MPix displays, we are forced to save every and each pixel. > > paper is 300DPI (practically, because that's average human vision at reasonable distance). we need 300DPI displays, of some 17...22 inch size, on every desk and in every device to be able to commit to margins > > the day i get >10MPix i'll be the first in line to follow your advice and get some margins. I _sincerely_ hope you are trolling. :D Otherwise, in all seriousness, have you no brain at all? You are seriously scaring me here. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:31:04 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.0.0-rc6-l34+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712144019.0edf4b79@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <20110712144019.0edf4b79@lahti.ethans.dre.am> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ffb073d4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 15:40:19 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 > dexen deVries wrote: > ((ramblings))=20 > > I _sincerely_ hope you are trolling. :D Otherwise, in all seriousness, ha= ve you no brain at all? You are seriously scaring me here. unfortunately all too often i'm the `noise' part of the `signal-to-noise ra= tio'. blame my reading comprehension more than ill will. =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:56:12 +0100 From: Ethan Grammatikidis To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <201107121436.17084.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712144019.0edf4b79@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ffb5e03a-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:31:04 +0200 dexen deVries wrote: > On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 15:40:19 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 > > dexen deVries wrote: > > ((ramblings)) > > > > I _sincerely_ hope you are trolling. :D Otherwise, in all seriousness, have you no brain at all? You are seriously scaring me here. > > unfortunately all too often i'm the `noise' part of the `signal-to-noise ratio'. > > blame my reading comprehension more than ill will. Okay, no hard feelings. I've been the noise component often enough myself and I did write a lot in my mail. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:26:28 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.0.0-rc6-l34+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: ffc1ccec-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Ethan got me thinking there :-) consider a window consisting of text area and some widgets around it. instead of making the widgets as small as possible, render as margins when = not needed. most, or all, window's widgets would be rendered as solid background color = (functionally margins) when user is reading or typing text. when user wants to activate any widget, actual menus, scrollbars, statusbar= etc. would be drawn. if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intent= ion to activate widgets, triggering their visibility. some symmetry of the left/right and perhaps top/bottom would be called for. one downside is that the widgets would literally `flash' in and out of user= 's vision, possibly irritating or tiring him. in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into marg= ins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. =2D-=20 dexen deVries [[[=E2=86=93][=E2=86=92]]] =46or example, if the first thing in the file is: an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional= ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:52:14 -0700 Message-ID: From: Akshat Kumar To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00bc2e26-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 This goes in with all those Ayn Rand novels I never read. All of them. ak On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:02:03 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517740b12c6aec304a7ed2701 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00cbbc10-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001517740b12c6aec304a7ed2701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. yes!! i agree 100% last night i couldn't sleep for a while, so i tried to imagine acme as a whole screen ui, w/o any taglines, ctrl-boxes, and sliders... however, i ran into problems soon... made some sketches, but ended up with acknowledging a very clever acme design. Nevertheless, it would be elegant if all the widgets were invisible, in the way dexen proposed.. i hope to see it implemented soon ;-) ++pac --001517740b12c6aec304a7ed2701 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>=C2=A0 in other words, all the widge= ts (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ ov= er those widgets.


yes!! i agree 100%
last night i couldn't sleep=C2=A0 for a while, so i tried to imagine a= cme as a whole screen ui, w/o any taglines, ctrl-boxes, and sliders...=20 however, i ran into problems soon... made some sketches, but ended up=20 with acknowledging a very clever acme design.
Nevertheless, it would be elegant if all the widgets were invisible, in=20 the way dexen proposed.. i hope to see it implemented soon ;-)
++pac
--001517740b12c6aec304a7ed2701-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:12:39 +1000 Message-ID: From: Bruce Ellis To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00d1dd52-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I mentioned Hiki (Human Interface Kit Interface) in Seattle. Some others have extended draw (like fgb - anti aliasing with area coverage - under my humble mentoring). Hiki will be ready to run when I get back from adventure. It optionally has other convolutions - Catmull and Sinc look much better. Next message from India. bruce On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote= : > > >>=A0 in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned int= o >> margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. > > > yes!! i agree 100% > last night i couldn't sleep=A0 for a while, so i tried to imagine acme as= a > whole screen ui, w/o any taglines, ctrl-boxes, and sliders... however, i = ran > into problems soon... made some sketches, but ended up with acknowledging= a > very clever acme design. > Nevertheless, it would be elegant if all the widgets were invisible, in t= he > way dexen proposed.. i hope to see it implemented soon ;-) > ++pac > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:15:27 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Peter A. Cejchan" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e644c640b0de1204a7ed57c3 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00d9d4da-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0016e644c640b0de1204a7ed57c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? Do they actually never try to read anything using i'm not a comp nerd, rathe a biologist, however, and therefore, i like simple, yet working designs.... how do you use margins? > The whole setup ... is pleasant to look at,... :-))) > Books have margins. ... because they're being printed on paper ;-) OK, but they have a plain, background-colored, non-functional margins ... IMHO, as always, ++pac --0016e644c640b0de1204a7ed57c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> MARGINS! Why is it all the computer= nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? Do they actually never try to= read anything using

=C2=A0i'm not a comp nerd, rathe a biolog= ist, however, and therefore, i like simple, yet working designs.... how do = you use margins?

=C2=A0>=C2=A0 The whole setup ... is pleasant to look at,...

= :-)))

=C2=A0> Books have margins.
... be= cause they're being printed on paper ;-) =C2=A0 OK, but they have a pla= in, background-colored, non-functional margins ...
IMHO, as always,
++pac



--0016e644c640b0de1204a7ed57c3-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:23:02 +1000 Message-ID: From: Bruce Ellis To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00e3f3c0-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Hey, if you want margins you need them. Ever done a patent application? Humans who call me a nerd are subject to ritualistic humiliation. brucee On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote= : > > >> MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating >> margins? Do they actually never try to read anything using > =A0i'm not a comp nerd, rathe a biologist, however, and therefore, i like > simple, yet working designs.... how do you use margins? > > =A0>=A0 The whole setup ... is pleasant to look at,... > > :-))) > > =A0> Books have margins. > ... because they're being printed on paper ;-) =A0 OK, but they have a pl= ain, > background-colored, non-functional margins ... > IMHO, as always, > ++pac > > > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:43:51 -0500 From: Jack Norton User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00efabb6-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 dexen deVries wrote: > if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention to activate widgets, triggering their visibility. > >... > in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. > > eeek! Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? I cannot stand programs that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, or what the keyboard meta keys are up to, etc... Microsoft Office comes to mind (and then the hover-only menus fade in and out like it's 1999). Stupid goddamn flash/js menus on websites that expand when you hover over them.... then break when you move the mouse to the menu item you'd like (rinse and repeat...). I like acme because it doesn't change its appearance no matter where I put my mouse, nor does it have menus that appear only when I bark at it. The rio menus are unfortunate, but in that context it is the best it could be I think. I do admit though, as was mentioned earlier, rio's 'memory' of what I last selected in its menus as the next default is very unfortunate. I've gotten used to that though. The worst... and I mean worst case of hover-only features is the stupid system tray clock in windows xp. I never now when it will be gracious enough to give me that little pop-up that tells me the full date/time. Or in second place, that little pop-up in windows explorer that gives me a (bad) summary of folder contents/size. It's a crap shoot. Hover-only stuff is a disease. -Jack From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:16:06 -0400 Message-ID: <1310566566.1696.48.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00fce5ce-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 08:43 -0500, Jack Norton wrote: > dexen deVries wrote: > >... > > in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. > > > > eeek! > Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? I cannot stand programs > that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, Isn't this a perfect case for letting the user set a parameter, depending upon his/her preference? Wes From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> <1310566566.1696.48.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> From: Anthony Sorace Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <1310566566.1696.48.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Message-Id: <18A0ABD5-F005-4295-B279-4789A728736D@9srv.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:38 -0400 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8J2) Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01069204-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Jul 13, 2011, at 10:16, Wes Kussmaul wrote: > Isn't this a perfect case for letting the user set a parameter, > depending upon his/her preference? No. The choice is between two very different user interaction models. Nobody= has claimed that having widgets filling what would otherwise be margins and= having them *not* fade would be a good plan. It'd be like setting a paramet= er to determine whether your editor acted like sam or acme - just pick which= to run, instead. I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that with all the talk I've seen on thi= s topic over the years there haven't been more actual experiments (rio -i be= ing the most ambitious I can think of). The rio code is nice to work with - p= ick it apart and get hacking. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:12:23 +0300 Message-ID: From: Yaroslav To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 012ac016-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 do we really need screens? lets move everything into our imagination. all we need is to get a draw(3) interface to it... From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: dexen deVries To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:22:26 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/3.0.0-rc4-l38+; KDE/4.5.5; x86_64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201107141922.33938.dexen.devries@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0132179e-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thursday 14 July 2011 19:12:23 Yaroslav wrote: > do we really need screens? lets move everything into our imagination. > all we need is to get a draw(3) interface to it... can't wait till the first person gets ghosthacked [1], eh? nb., PostScript is turing-complete, if lacking a bit on the I/O side. [1] an idea from GitS; human brains interface with computer, with all the assorted consequences -- dexen deVries > (...) I never use more than 800Mb of RAM. I am running Linux, > a browser and a terminal. rjbond3rd in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2692529 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:34:31 +0100 From: Ethan Grammatikidis To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <20110715213431.2e1e37c6@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01ce41f0-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:43:51 -0500 Jack Norton wrote: > dexen deVries wrote: > > > if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention to activate widgets, triggering their visibility. > > > >... > > in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. > > > > > > eeek! > Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? I cannot stand programs > that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, > or what the keyboard meta keys are up to, etc... You're definitely not the only one. > The worst... and I mean worst case of hover-only features is the stupid > system tray clock in windows xp. I never now when it will be gracious > enough to give me that little pop-up that tells me the full date/time. > Or in second place, that little pop-up in windows explorer that gives me > a (bad) summary of folder contents/size. It's a crap shoot. Hover-only > stuff is a disease. I almost said hover-only stuff can be done right, but remembered I've only been relying on it since using trackpads & touchpoints - devices almost incapable of mouse creep, and it's still a little bit of a nuisance. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:41:23 +0100 From: Ethan Grammatikidis To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <20110715214123.18186ee1@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: <18A0ABD5-F005-4295-B279-4789A728736D@9srv.net> References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> <1310566566.1696.48.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> <18A0ABD5-F005-4295-B279-4789A728736D@9srv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01d5670a-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:38 -0400 Anthony Sorace wrote: > On Jul 13, 2011, at 10:16, Wes Kussmaul wrote: > > > Isn't this a perfect case for letting the user set a parameter, > > depending upon his/her preference? > > No. The choice is between two very different user interaction models. Nobody has claimed that having widgets filling what would otherwise be margins and having them *not* fade would be a good plan. It'd be like setting a parameter to determine whether your editor acted like sam or acme - just pick which to run, instead. I commented that Plan 9 scrollbars are (more or less) light enough to be like margins themselves, so we already have that as default. If they're too contrasty, that can always be hacked (probably in libframe). > > I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that with all the talk I've seen on this topic over the years there haven't been more actual experiments (rio -i being the most ambitious I can think of). The rio code is nice to work with - pick it apart and get hacking. Yeah. Experimenting has certainly been on my list for a while, but I wasn't well enough to try to understand the libframe code. I'm a lot better now, and experiemting with libframe and rio is closer to the top of my list than ever. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:45:09 +0100 From: Ethan Grammatikidis To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <20110715214509.3883fc49@lahti.ethans.dre.am> In-Reply-To: References: <20110712131806.250ce587@lahti.ethans.dre.am> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01de789a-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:15:27 +0200 "Peter A. Cejchan" wrote: > > MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating > margins? Do they actually never try to read anything using > > i'm not a comp nerd, rathe a biologist, however, and therefore, i like > simple, yet working designs.... how do you use margins? Just to stop my eyesight being bothered by the edge of the screen. The edges of all my current screens are black, and the text-area bg usually white, so there's a lot of contrast there. > > > The whole setup ... is pleasant to look at,... > > :-))) > > > Books have margins. > ... because they're being printed on paper ;-) OK, but they have a plain, > background-colored, non-functional margins ... I consider them passively functional. :) > IMHO, as always, > ++pac From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <20110715213431.2e1e37c6@lahti.ethans.dre.am> References: <201107121631.05140.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <20110712155612.5b174266@lahti.ethans.dre.am> <201107121726.29100.dexen.devries@gmail.com> <4E1DA117.2030307@0x6a.com> <20110715213431.2e1e37c6@lahti.ethans.dre.am> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:59:57 -0400 Message-ID: <1310763597.1701.92.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01f04250-ead7-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, 2011-07-15 at 21:34 +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > > > if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention to activate widgets, > > > > eeek! > Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? > You're definitely not the only one. OK, devil's advocacy here. Liberal use of hyperlinks causes tednelsonitis, where the author assumes you want to spend all day researching in depth while in fact you just want to get the idea and move on. A little explanatory text that pops up in a mouseover on a bit of jargon can be very helpful. You stay on the page while getting the brief bit of background needed. The practice has gotten a bad rap through abuse by advertisers, but if you look past that I think it's useful. wk