Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Winston Kodogo]

"To go back to the original subject"

Surely this is the first time that has ever been done on 9fans?

This is 9fans, not 'Nam. There are rules.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Dan Cross]

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Eh, not so much anymore.  The morlocks have taken over, which is a shame:
9fans used to be one of the best technical mailing lists on the Internet.
 Those days are long gone.  The ankle biters are too numerous now.

(Cue requisite flames.)

        - Dan C.


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:00 PM, Winston Kodogo <kodogo@gmail.com> wrote:

> "To go back to the original subject"
>
> Surely this is the first time that has ever been done on 9fans?
>
> This is 9fans, not 'Nam. There are rules.
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[andrey mirtchovski]

> The ankle biters are too numerous now.

"Trolling is a art" they tell themselves.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On 2013-03-24, at 6:24 PM, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> "Trolling is a art" they tell themselves.

On Slashdot.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 09:20:04PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> Eh, not so much anymore.  The morlocks have taken over, which is a shame:
> 9fans used to be one of the best technical mailing lists on the Internet.
>  Those days are long gone.  The ankle biters are too numerous now.
>
> (Cue requisite flames.)
>
>         - Dan C.
>

I agree.  It's horrible that you can't seem to have any sort of
technical discussion these days without some guy butting in and telling
everyone to shut up because computers are so crazy fast that nothing
even matters, or that nobody else cares about the technology involved,
etc.  It's a shame.

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Dan Cross]

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Yeah.  Or someone who is arguably the biggest problem on the list adding
absolutely nothing other than some uninformed, dogmatically driven, rigid
meta-commentary.  Maybe that's all that person can do.  He should keep
feeling smug while turning the crank, though: he obviously knows more than
the guy who designed and wrote most of it.


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:36 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm-9@intma.in> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 09:20:04PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Eh, not so much anymore.  The morlocks have taken over, which is a shame:
> > 9fans used to be one of the best technical mailing lists on the Internet.
> >  Those days are long gone.  The ankle biters are too numerous now.
> >
> > (Cue requisite flames.)
> >
> >         - Dan C.
> >
>
> I agree.  It's horrible that you can't seem to have any sort of
> technical discussion these days without some guy butting in and telling
> everyone to shut up because computers are so crazy fast that nothing
> even matters, or that nobody else cares about the technology involved,
> etc.  It's a shame.
>
> khm
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Jacob Todd]

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Stop.

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Stop.

Collaborate and listen.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 09:42:09PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> Yeah.  Or someone who is arguably the biggest problem on the list adding
> absolutely nothing other than some uninformed, dogmatically driven, rigid
> meta-commentary.  Maybe that's all that person can do.  He should keep
> feeling smug while turning the crank, though: he obviously knows more than
> the guy who designed and wrote most of it.
>

...wait.  Are we talking about you?  Because I was talking about Rob
Pike.

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Dan Cross]

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm-9@intma.in> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 09:42:09PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Yeah.  Or someone who is arguably the biggest problem on the list adding
> > absolutely nothing other than some uninformed, dogmatically driven, rigid
> > meta-commentary.  Maybe that's all that person can do.  He should keep
> > feeling smug while turning the crank, though: he obviously knows more
> than
> > the guy who designed and wrote most of it.
>
> ...wait.  Are we talking about you?  Because I was talking about Rob
> Pike.


When you have produced a fraction of a percent of what Rob Pike has
produced over his career, I might take you seriously. Until then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

And I'm out.

        - Dan C.

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:02:12PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> 
> When you have produced a fraction of a percent of what Rob Pike has
> produced over his career, I might take you seriously. Until then:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

If, over the course of my life, I produce a fraction of a percent of
what Rob Pike has produced, it will be too much.  But let me assure you
that I am chilled to the quick that Dan Cross* does not take me
seriously on the internet.

> And I'm out.

Thanks for letting us know.

khm



* who?

[9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

There are, regularly, mention for "porting" or having gcc(1) on Plan9 in
order to be able to port more user level applications (because user
level applications not only depend on a bunch of things---generally
ignoring standards---but on compiler idiosynchrasies too...).

With gcc 4.8.0, the implementation of gcc is now in C++... And to
compile a compiler, one needs a C++ compiler...

Great! I always thought that, because of what can be embedded in a
compiler (cf. Ken Thompson's Trusting Trust) and because of a
bootstrapping process (as explained in the red dragon book for example),
the compiling of a compiler should need the strict minimum...

IMHO, with the advent of a crisis compared to which 1929 will be a
minor storm, there will be a general disgust and lack of trust and a
return for crucial things to small is beautiful (and safer).

Plan9 is not dead, simply waiting its "finest hour". Gcc on Plan9 is.
And I won't weep.
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                     http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Richard Miller]

> With gcc 4.8.0, the implementation of gcc is now in C++... And to
> compile a compiler, one needs a C++ compiler...

This is not an insurmountable obstacle.  In fact it's the normal
situation when retargeting any self-compiled compiler for a new
instruction set.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Steve Simon]

I wonder if the new gcc will be written in cfront compatible
c++ - that would work... ☺

-Steve

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 09:56:19AM +0000, Steve Simon wrote:
> I wonder if the new gcc will be written in cfront compatible
> c++ - that would work... ?

I guess the answer is: no, since the compiler has to be C++ 2003
compatible. But I guess too that your mention of cfront was a joke...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 09:53:29AM +0000, Richard Miller wrote:
> > With gcc 4.8.0, the implementation of gcc is now in C++... And to
> > compile a compiler, one needs a C++ compiler...
>
> This is not an insurmountable obstacle.  In fact it's the normal
> situation when retargeting any self-compiled compiler for a new
> instruction set.
>

Except that C is a great language because it is both high
level enough and low level (near machine) that a compiler written in C
without optimizations and pure integer is "easy" (less expensive) to
write from scratch. Here, the dependencies increase.
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> Except that C is a great language because it is both high
> level enough and low level (near machine) that a compiler written in C
> without optimizations and pure integer is "easy" (less expensive) to
> write from scratch. Here, the dependencies increase.

I wouldn't cry too many tears over GCC.  Having investigated Hogan's
port of GCC (3.0) to Plan 9, my impression is that GCC would never
really fit in with the Plan 9 paradigm, it is way too expensive and
unrewarding to bend it into shape, C++ notwithstanding.

Hence Go, together with the upgraded (if you want to call them that)
Plan 9 development tools.  I'm still of the opinion that a convergence
of the Plan 9 tools and the Go development can become the Esperanto of
information technology, given that ease of portability to foreign
architectures is a founding principle.  Only time will tell, sadly I
don't see any organisation or authoritative person recommending 8c et
al for development, where I expect that would be a step forward.

The obsession with optimisation, in part, is to be blamed, too.  But
not alone.

Just as a side note, I was hoping to port Plan 9 to the Olimex
LinuXino, one of many project that may or may not see the light of
day.  It comes with some or other variety of Linux, but has too little
memory (64MiB) to be more than an embedded prototyping system and the
default Linux release comes without the GCC development system.  It
struck me that the Go system could be cross-compiled for Linux/Arm on
my Plan 9 network and used on the LinuXino.  In fact, I have
implemented some small applications in this way although I have had no
occasion to do more than that.  If I could figure a way to compile the
Go distribution with its own tools, I may be able to prove that Go is
a viable release development system without GCC backing it, something
we have shown to a smaller audience with the Plan9/386 distribution.

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Peter A. Cejchan]

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@Lucio: I still hope that some clone of plan9/nix/nxm will merge with Go
... just my dream, and I am just an embryo of a programmer
(as multiply stated here and elsewhere) so take it easy.... however, I'm
moving all my old  stuff (and creating new one) to Go
[unfortunately, I am afraid I will never see the 9GoNix OS ;-) brought into
life]

Cheers,
peter.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 11:24 AM, <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:

> > Except that C is a great language because it is both high
> > level enough and low level (near machine) that a compiler written in C
> > without optimizations and pure integer is "easy" (less expensive) to
> > write from scratch. Here, the dependencies increase.
>
> I wouldn't cry too many tears over GCC.  Having investigated Hogan's
> port of GCC (3.0) to Plan 9, my impression is that GCC would never
> really fit in with the Plan 9 paradigm, it is way too expensive and
> unrewarding to bend it into shape, C++ notwithstanding.
>
> Hence Go, together with the upgraded (if you want to call them that)
> Plan 9 development tools.  I'm still of the opinion that a convergence
> of the Plan 9 tools and the Go development can become the Esperanto of
> information technology, given that ease of portability to foreign
> architectures is a founding principle.  Only time will tell, sadly I
> don't see any organisation or authoritative person recommending 8c et
> al for development, where I expect that would be a step forward.
>
> The obsession with optimisation, in part, is to be blamed, too.  But
> not alone.
>
> Just as a side note, I was hoping to port Plan 9 to the Olimex
> LinuXino, one of many project that may or may not see the light of
> day.  It comes with some or other variety of Linux, but has too little
> memory (64MiB) to be more than an embedded prototyping system and the
> default Linux release comes without the GCC development system.  It
> struck me that the Go system could be cross-compiled for Linux/Arm on
> my Plan 9 network and used on the LinuXino.  In fact, I have
> implemented some small applications in this way although I have had no
> occasion to do more than that.  If I could figure a way to compile the
> Go distribution with its own tools, I may be able to prove that Go is
> a viable release development system without GCC backing it, something
> we have shown to a smaller audience with the Plan9/386 distribution.
>
> ++L
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> [unfortunately, I am afraid I will never see the 9GoNix OS ;-) brought into
> life]

I think Plan 9 spoils us, the OS is just a tool, not a faith.  Just as
Go is not a faith, just a logical evolution of Alef, through Limbo, to
the platforms and conditions that prevail today.  What matters is to
be able to produce code that runs on useful platforms and does not
require blood, sweat and tears to be made to work.  Myself, I want to
teach underprivileged kids to program, the OS platform of choice is
Plan 9, but I also need to prepare them for the Windows, Linux and OSX
world.

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

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go runs already on 9.

Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the 
runtime code are, well….

but it's already there.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:40 PM, "Peter A. Cejchan" <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:

>  I still hope that some clone of plan9/nix/nxm will merge with Go


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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[erik quanstrom]

> Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the 
> runtime code are, well….

sorry to be dense.  larger than what?

- erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

Than plan 9's C ones.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 5:09 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

>> Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the 
>> runtime code are, well….
> 
> sorry to be dense.  larger than what?
> 
> - erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[erik quanstrom]

On Sat Mar 23 12:20:57 EDT 2013, nemo@lsub.org wrote:
> Than plan 9's C ones.
> 
> On Mar 23, 2013, at 5:09 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> 
> >> Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the 
> >> runtime code are, well….
> > 
> > sorry to be dense.  larger than what?

ah.  i thought you were saying that it was an order of magnitude
larger than the unix version of go.

by the way, does this scale with lines of go code, or is it just
that the trivial go executable is megs?

- erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Gorka Guardiola]

>
> ah.  i thought you were saying that it was an order of magnitude
> larger than the unix version of go.
>
> by the way, does this scale with lines of go code, or is it just
> that the trivial go executable is megs?

A simple hello world is megs.

G.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

Much of which is symbols. Plus, a a simple computer has gigs of memory.

Yes, it's remarkable how much bigger programs are now than they were
20 years ago, but 20 years ago the same things were being said. I
understand your objection - I really do - but it's time to face the
future. The smart phone in your pocket is roughly 100 times faster
than the machine Plan 9 was developed on and has 1000 times the RAM.
Computers are incredibly powerful now, and the technologies of today
can use that power well (as I claim Go does) or poorly (as some others
do), or ignore it at the risk of obsolescence.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[erik quanstrom]

On Sat Mar 23 13:16:39 EDT 2013, robpike@gmail.com wrote:
> Much of which is symbols. Plus, a a simple computer has gigs of memory.

so, assuming demand loading, this is more of a
disk space issue rather than a memory issue?

- erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

   so, assuming demand loading, this is more of a
   disk space issue rather than a memory issue?

It's only an issue on mailing lists and discussion groups.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[erik quanstrom]

On Sat Mar 23 15:30:40 EDT 2013, robpike@gmail.com wrote:
>    so, assuming demand loading, this is more of a
>    disk space issue rather than a memory issue?
>
> It's only an issue on mailing lists and discussion groups.

i was hoping to know if the symbols are used for reflection.

- erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

Yes, they are necessary for reflection. Fmt uses reflection - and uses
it well, as rminnich has attested.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:31 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> On Sat Mar 23 15:30:40 EDT 2013, robpike@gmail.com wrote:
>>    so, assuming demand loading, this is more of a
>>    disk space issue rather than a memory issue?
>>
>> It's only an issue on mailing lists and discussion groups.
>
> i was hoping to know if the symbols are used for reflection.
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

    For example, looking at what go install does wrt what a few mkfiles would
    do for the same go source is illustrative of what I'm trying to say.

I've never seen a mkfile that builds a transitive dependency graph
given only the source code, downloads the relative dependencies from
the network, builds all the dependencies, and installs the result. Yes
mk could do that, but it would need a lot of help, and that help is
not going to materialize. Why use mk when the source code has all the
information you need to build the program?

I was a big fan of mk, and it (or make, depending) is still used to
help bootstrap the Go installation, but honestly I do not miss writing
mkfiles one bit.


-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

On Mar 23, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why use mk when the source code has all the
> information you need to build the program

speed.
You have a fast and nice compiler.
I only copy a std mkfile to each dir with go source. I dont write them.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[andrey mirtchovski]

with mkfiles you can never have something like http://godoc.org. in
fact, it would be very difficult to make something like godoc for any
other language without major support from the authors or volunteers.

what godoc.org does is amazing -- when you type in a query for
something that looks like a go package it will attempt to download it
and generate the package documentation from the source code on the
fly. no interaction from the author or website maintainer need to
happen, all is done by the go tool, usually with enough speed that not
much waiting is involved. all the package needs to do is abide by a
few rules in naming imports.

try it for yourself (these packages will surely not be in the index):

http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/qcs
http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/deco
http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/palette
http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/rorschach
http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/spirograph

the stuff that falls out of such a tool is even more impressive.
here's an import graph for one of the xscr programs:
http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/moire?view=import-graph

here's the one for godoc:
http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/go/src/cmd/godoc?view=import-graph

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

I used noweb, and web before that, long before go was conceived.
In fact, I was a huge fan of that. Knuth literate programming was fun.
it was tiny compared with godoc tool. Although the go tool is tiny compared
with eclipse or even the old code warrior.

I like the language, and worked to get it running on our systems.
Its nice how the go tool does some of the things it does, although there are
other things it does that I prefer to do with other tools.

I was just mentioning some facts about it I dont like.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 8:58 PM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:

> with mkfiles you can never have something like http://godoc.org. in
> fact, it would be very difficult to make something like godoc for any
> other language without major support from the authors or volunteers.
> 
> what godoc.org does is amazing -- when you type in a query for
> something that looks like a go package it will attempt to download it
> and generate the package documentation from the source code on the
> fly. no interaction from the author or website maintainer need to
> happen, all is done by the go tool, usually with enough speed that not
> much waiting is involved. all the package needs to do is abide by a
> few rules in naming imports.
> 
> try it for yourself (these packages will surely not be in the index):
> 
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/qcs
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/deco
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/palette
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/rorschach
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/spirograph
> 
> the stuff that falls out of such a tool is even more impressive.
> here's an import graph for one of the xscr programs:
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/goxscr/moire?view=import-graph
> 
> here's the one for godoc:
> http://godoc.org/code.google.com/p/go/src/cmd/godoc?view=import-graph

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:29:36PM -0700, Rob Pike wrote:
>    so, assuming demand loading, this is more of a
>    disk space issue rather than a memory issue?
>
> It's only an issue on mailing lists and discussion groups.
>
> -rob
>

Also in university campuses and web programming shops, which are the
only other two places Go is discussed.

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

> What matters is to be able to produce code

What matters is to get rid of code.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

Although, in general, I agree. I think that having the resources doesn't mean
we have to consume them (although we might if that pays off, of course).

For example, looking at what go install does wrt what a few mkfiles would
do for the same go source is illustrative of what I'm trying to say.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Much of which is symbols. Plus, a a simple computer has gigs of memory.
>
> Yes, it's remarkable how much bigger programs are now than they were
> 20 years ago, but 20 years ago the same things were being said. I
> understand your objection - I really do - but it's time to face the
> future. The smart phone in your pocket is roughly 100 times faster
> than the machine Plan 9 was developed on and has 1000 times the RAM.
> Computers are incredibly powerful now, and the technologies of today
> can use that power well (as I claim Go does) or poorly (as some others
> do), or ignore it at the risk of obsolescence.
>
> -rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

On 3/23/13, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
> Although, in general, I agree.

Are you surprised that you do?

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Nemo]

I'll try to say it in a different way.

I asked Siri and (s)he said (s)he does not consume many resources.
Now, that's nice. I'm willing to give up the machine resources for that, or
for dialling by voice on my car.

*But*, I'm not sure that to print "Hi there" I need a few megs, nor am I sure
that to install a and compile a few sources I need to see hundreds of stats/reads;
The funny thing is that the compilers seem to be really fast, but the go tool
fixes that problem. Fortunately, a few mkfiles fix the go tool problems.

Also, doing a cp /bin/echo /bin/hg improves things a bit.

This is just IMHO, the language is nice as are parts of the runtime.
I'm glad go is out there.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 6:44 PM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/23/13, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
>> Although, in general, I agree.
> 
> Are you surprised that you do?

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

> it's time to face the future.

will go be able to run in the browser with activex? is it compatible
with node.js?

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

I feel like the future is repeating itself. Don't know what you find
so worthy in this.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:15:20AM -0700, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> Yes, it's remarkable how much bigger programs are now than they were
> 20 years ago, but 20 years ago the same things were being said.

Can we conclude that the added power is lost for the result obtained
from the applications, since it is taken by the "machinery"? Just as if
a washing powder giving already a "perfect" result 20 years ago had been
"improved" (from perfect to more than perfect) being able to give a
perfect result even if you make a knot around the heavy dirt before
throwing in the washing-machine: you have a perfectly clean result (as
you could obtain before, but without making the knot), except that
you have to make the knots before and try to unmake them after?

I remember when I started to work in a surveyor office. There was
microstation, back in early 90s, that ran on a DOS extender with a
perfect graphical performance (you were able to work flawlessly,
zooming, panning or whatever). You were never waiting for the
application or the display; it worked faster than your input.

Once Windows "improved" came, it took several years for the computers to
give the very same user experience, by an order of magnitude increase in
power for the "PC". It had to recover from Windows improvements first...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[erik quanstrom]

> I remember when I started to work in a surveyor office. There was
> microstation, back in early 90s, that ran on a DOS extender with a 
> perfect graphical performance (you were able to work flawlessly, 
> zooming, panning or whatever). You were never waiting for the
> application or the display; it worked faster than your input.
> 
> Once Windows "improved" came, it took several years for the computers to
> give the very same user experience, by an order of magnitude increase in
> power for the "PC". It had to recover from Windows improvements first...

yes.  this is a big problem.  incremental improvement often fails.
and we see this today with newer phones performing poorly with
"new and improved" software.

the way to get out of this trap is to provide real improvement
by doing something new.  (the term of art is "disruptive"—a
rather annoying term. :-)) obviously the new approach isn't going
to be as polished as the old approach.  but if the new thing
is a real improvement, folks will put up with the regressions
in unimportant areas.

there was an old way to say this, "you can't make an omlette
without breaking a few eggs".  :-)

- erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[andrey mirtchovski]

this is not a new discussion, it started in november 2009. the fact
that it's just coming to 9fans is a sign of how far behind the times
we are :(

the go runtime is ~380k. that one you must carry always even in an
empty program (see below). what you're complaining about is the
side-effect of importing fmt and other big packages such as os and
net. with fmt you're sucking in all the unicode code tables and the
reflection code used to process printing arguments (which you can't
prove will not be used). the initial jump is big, but as your code
grows the binary size tends to increase slower -- all of the imports
are already in. the biggest program from the Go distribution
frequently in use is "godoc". it deals with xml, json, binary
encoding, directory navigation, document preparation, source code
parsing, compression/decompression and serves the major website for go
-- golang.org... that program, statically linked, is 8 megs (64-bit).
i've seen things that deal with graphics which get to 20 megs. that is
reasonable, i think.

here's an illustrative progression of go binary sizes:

$ cat > t.go
package main
func main(){
}
$ go build t.go; ls -l t
-rwxr-xr-x  1 andrey  wheel  384880 Mar 23 12:43 t
$ cat > t.go
package main
func main(){
    println("hello")
}
$ go build t.go; ls -l t; ./t
-rwxr-xr-x  1 andrey  wheel  389008 Mar 23 12:43 t
hello
$ cat > t.go
package main
import "unicode"
var _ = unicode.MaxRune
func main() {
}
$ go build t.go; ls -l t
-rwxr-xr-x  1 andrey  wheel  581024 Mar 23 12:45 t
$ cat > t.go
package main
import "fmt"
var _ = fmt.Println
func main(){
}
$ go build t.go; ls -l t
-rwxr-xr-x  1 andrey  wheel  1481920 Mar 23 12:44 t

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[ron minnich]

I'll happily pay the price of bigger binaries for things such as the %v format.

I don't write hello, world that often, or even care about its size when I do.

One demo we used to do for Unix was show we could write an executable
program that was 2 bytes. It was cute. Did it matter, in the end? Not
really. But we used to call 4k programs bloated.

I have  a hard time worrying about 1M binaries on $200 machines with
12 GB/s memory bandwidth and 4G memory.
It's 2013.

ron

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Gorka Guardiola]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:23 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll happily pay the price of bigger binaries for things such as the %v format.
>
> I don't write hello, world that often, or even care about its size when I do.

Hello world was just an example, please don't make a straw man out of it.
If you want real programs which are bigger that I (we) actually use that will
be (much) bigger in go:

ls, cp rm mv cat acid, I can go on.

Small programs are useful and important.

There is a price to pay, and if you get something useful out of it, it may be
a fair price to pay, as I said in my other e-mail, I was just stating
a fact, binaries
are bigger and for example replacing the minimal sets of commands of
the system, this can make the
minimal system at least 5 times bigger easy.


> I have  a hard time worrying about 1M binaries on $200 machines with
> 12 GB/s memory bandwidth and 4G memory.
> It's 2013.
>

A lot of my friends have cheap phones that run out of memory
all the time. There is not a one size fits all in engineering, there
are compromises
and uses.

Higher level programming means paying the cost of bigger binaries,
that may be ok
for some uses and not for others. I like writing go code, it is fun, and
has a fairly high level of abstraction while letting you access the
system easily
(I am looking at you Java).

As I said, at least from me, it was not a complaint, just a statement of a fact.
I have spent quite some amount of time lately getting go working on
arm in Plan 9
because I value the language.

G.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[andrey mirtchovski]

> If you want real programs which are bigger that I (we) actually use that will
> be (much) bigger in go:
>
> ls, cp rm mv cat acid, I can go on.
>
> Small programs are useful and important.

here's a representative set. the programs are identical in behaviour
and arguments to the Plan 9 set. the size is as reported by du, in
kilobytes:

1456 ./date/date
1460 ./cat/cat
1564 ./cleanname/cleanname
1564 ./tee/tee
1736 ./echo/echo
1764 ./cp/cp
1772 ./uniq/uniq
1780 ./cmp/cmp
1780 ./freq/freq
1780 ./wc/wc
1792 ./comm/comm

> binaries are bigger and for example replacing the minimal sets of commands of
> the system, this can make the
> minimal system at least 5 times bigger easy.

if that was a real issue you were trying to solve there are things you
can do to help yourself. most notably sticking everything in a single
binary and invoking the right function based on your argv0. it took me
less than 15 minutes to convert the above code to work as a single
binary and most of that was in handling clashing flags (it would've
been a non-issue if I had used flagsets when writing the original
programs). size at the very end:

$ date > test.txt
$ ln -s $GOPATH/bin/all cat
$ ln -s $GOPATH/bin/all wc
$ ./cat test.txt
Sat Mar 23 17:32:42 MDT 2013
$ ./wc test.txt
      1       6      29 test.txt
$ du -k $GOPATH/bin/all
1888 /Users/andrey/bin/all

the size of the original binaries on plan9 is 588k. what was a factor
of 30 is now a factor of 3. all tests still pass and it took less time
to complete than writing this email.

there's an even better solution, but it won't work on plan9 because
the go tool is slow there :)

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2026 bytes --]

I recall one guy at the labs(!) who would ruthlessly avoid printf because
it dragged in too much stuff. I think he ran out of people to argue with 30
years ago.
On 24 Mar 2013 10:47, "andrey mirtchovski" <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:

> > If you want real programs which are bigger that I (we) actually use that
> will
> > be (much) bigger in go:
> >
> > ls, cp rm mv cat acid, I can go on.
> >
> > Small programs are useful and important.
>
> here's a representative set. the programs are identical in behaviour
> and arguments to the Plan 9 set. the size is as reported by du, in
> kilobytes:
>
> 1456 ./date/date
> 1460 ./cat/cat
> 1564 ./cleanname/cleanname
> 1564 ./tee/tee
> 1736 ./echo/echo
> 1764 ./cp/cp
> 1772 ./uniq/uniq
> 1780 ./cmp/cmp
> 1780 ./freq/freq
> 1780 ./wc/wc
> 1792 ./comm/comm
>
> > binaries are bigger and for example replacing the minimal sets of
> commands of
> > the system, this can make the
> > minimal system at least 5 times bigger easy.
>
> if that was a real issue you were trying to solve there are things you
> can do to help yourself. most notably sticking everything in a single
> binary and invoking the right function based on your argv0. it took me
> less than 15 minutes to convert the above code to work as a single
> binary and most of that was in handling clashing flags (it would've
> been a non-issue if I had used flagsets when writing the original
> programs). size at the very end:
>
> $ date > test.txt
> $ ln -s $GOPATH/bin/all cat
> $ ln -s $GOPATH/bin/all wc
> $ ./cat test.txt
> Sat Mar 23 17:32:42 MDT 2013
> $ ./wc test.txt
>       1       6      29 test.txt
> $ du -k $GOPATH/bin/all
> 1888 /Users/andrey/bin/all
>
> the size of the original binaries on plan9 is 588k. what was a factor
> of 30 is now a factor of 3. all tests still pass and it took less time
> to complete than writing this email.
>
> there's an even better solution, but it won't work on plan9 because
> the go tool is slow there :)
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

andrey, I agreed the language is nice
and that's why I also use it. 
I just pointed out that binaries are one
order of magnitude larger, as 
you just proved. 

perhaps I shouldn't have raised this. 
I didn't want to bother anyone. 

El Mar 24, 2013, a las 12:45 AM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> escribió:

>> If you want real programs which are bigger that I (we) actually use that will
>> be (much) bigger in go:
>> 
>> ls, cp rm mv cat acid, I can go on.
>> 
>> Small programs are useful and important.
> 
> here's a representative set. the programs are identical in behaviour
> and arguments to the Plan 9 set. the size is as reported by du, in
> kilobytes:
> 
> 1456 ./date/date
> 1460 ./cat/cat
> 1564 ./cleanname/cleanname
> 1564 ./tee/tee
> 1736 ./echo/echo
> 1764 ./cp/cp
> 1772 ./uniq/uniq
> 1780 ./cmp/cmp
> 1780 ./freq/freq
> 1780 ./wc/wc
> 1792 ./comm/comm
> 
>> binaries are bigger and for example replacing the minimal sets of commands of
>> the system, this can make the
>> minimal system at least 5 times bigger easy.
> 
> if that was a real issue you were trying to solve there are things you
> can do to help yourself. most notably sticking everything in a single
> binary and invoking the right function based on your argv0. it took me
> less than 15 minutes to convert the above code to work as a single
> binary and most of that was in handling clashing flags (it would've
> been a non-issue if I had used flagsets when writing the original
> programs). size at the very end:
> 
> $ date > test.txt
> $ ln -s $GOPATH/bin/all cat
> $ ln -s $GOPATH/bin/all wc
> $ ./cat test.txt
> Sat Mar 23 17:32:42 MDT 2013
> $ ./wc test.txt
>      1       6      29 test.txt
> $ du -k $GOPATH/bin/all
> 1888 /Users/andrey/bin/all
> 
> the size of the original binaries on plan9 is 588k. what was a factor
> of 30 is now a factor of 3. all tests still pass and it took less time
> to complete than writing this email.
> 
> there's an even better solution, but it won't work on plan9 because
> the go tool is slow there :)

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Steve Simon]

I am intrigued by go but I mostly write embedded code for a day job
and I believe go doesn't really cover that space well. The other
part of my job is image processing which would be apropriate for Go
but my employer has mandated c++ so that is the end of that.

I do have a few honest questions about the current state of Go.

Is there a standardised GUI binding for go, somthing cross-platform?

Is there any concensus as go could be used  on bare metal or is that
just un-realistic given garbage collection and the relatively large
runtime.

has there been discussion on how some of the runtime could be moved into
a go-specific OS - would that even be a good/interesting idea?

-Steve

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

All below is opinion, possibly uninformed.

> Is there a standardised GUI binding for go, somthing cross-platform?
>
Not yet, although I think the pressure is building.  At the moment,
from where I am, it seems that a lot of development relies on
interfacing with a web browser and there are a few specialised
packages that interface with the conventional Unix toolkits (GTK,
etc.).  These last are not, in my opinion, cross-platform (enough).

> Is there any concensus as go could be used  on bare metal or is that
> just un-realistic given garbage collection and the relatively large
> runtime.
>
I have seen no sign of this, but here I think Rob is right, the
hardware is moving into the cross-hairs, rather than Go bend over to
it.  The ARM A13 and A10 as well as the AVRs have shown that big CPU
feature footprint does not have to mean a big physical footprint.
Maybe the contrary applies.  The GPUs puzzle me in this context, but
I'm not sure how relevant they are.

> has there been discussion on how some of the runtime could be moved into
> a go-specific OS - would that even be a good/interesting idea?
>
It's something that struck me recently too.  Go as it stands is not
ideal for operating system development and there has been discussion
of how the runtime and especially the garbage collector could be
redesigned for bare metal, but I think the demand needs to become more
shrill before the design can become more than just a concept.

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[ron minnich]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 324 bytes --]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 4:45 PM, andrey mirtchovski
<mirtchovski@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> there's an even better solution, but it won't work on plan9 because
> the go tool is slow there :)
>
>
did you mean u-root? It's true, cp is 3k on disk. That is indeed nice,
especially given that you made it concurrent.

ron

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Nicolas Bercher]

On 23/03/2013 20:23, ron minnich wrote:
> I'll happily pay the price of bigger binaries for things such as the %v format.
>
> I don't write hello, world that often, or even care about its size when I do.
>
> One demo we used to do for Unix was show we could write an executable
> program that was 2 bytes. It was cute. Did it matter, in the end? Not
> really. But we used to call 4k programs bloated.
>
> I have  a hard time worrying about 1M binaries on $200 machines with
> 12 GB/s memory bandwidth and 4G memory.
> It's 2013.

Even if I deeply love small and beautiful code, the only thing I really
care in everyday's life is computers responsiveness.  And I found myself
too often unhappy with nowadays computers responsiveness.
And maybe it's only a matter of code design quality.  One may write
really good and efficient code that will consume tens of KBytes when
compiled.  So to me the code size is not that much a big deal as far as
the result works pretty well.

Nicolas

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

It's pointless to complain about the size of "hello world". It's not a
real program. In Go's case it's larger than a C binary because the
libraries (and the presence of a runtime) are capable of much more
under the covers, but by the time you write a real program in Go
you'll find the ratio of Go binary to C binary isn't nearly so large;
the incremental cost to the binary of a Go source file compared to a C
Go file is negligible.

A house is much heavier than a tent, but it also has a much stronger foundation.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

Thanks, Andrey, although what you say about Unicode and fmt isn't
true.  Believe it or not, we care about sizes and arranged that fmt
doesn't need to import the whole Unicode tables, only the small subset
it needs.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

I have a few programs written, including fs sync tools and a few other things.
I guess the largest one might be 10k lines.
The language is nice, although binaries are still large. I mentioned hello world 
because that was the trivial example. I saw the same effect with other real
world programs.

I admit it might be necessary, but I wouldnt say sizes are comparable.


Also, I was reading the discussion andrey mentioned by the time it happened.
I guess it didnt reach this list until now because go didnt run on plan 9 until
recently.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 8:17 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's pointless to complain about the size of "hello world". It's not a
> real program. In Go's case it's larger than a C binary because the
> libraries (and the presence of a runtime) are capable of much more
> under the covers, but by the time you write a real program in Go
> you'll find the ratio of Go binary to C binary isn't nearly so large;
> the incremental cost to the binary of a Go source file compared to a C
> Go file is negligible.
> 
> A house is much heavier than a tent, but it also has a much stronger foundation.
> 
> -rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

If go install is slow on Plan 9, it's because Plan 9's file system is
slow (which it is and always has been), and because go install does
transitive dependencies correctly, which mk does not.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rob Pike]

I just did a go install, after a clean, of the biggest binary I'm
working on, using my pokey old mac laptop. It took 0.9 seconds, most
of which was spent in 6l and not the go tool. It could be faster, but
it's plenty fast enough.

The public won't use mk or make. If you want to succeed in the world,
you need to find a more modern way to build software. It's been clear
for a long time that that is not a relevant criterion for this
community any more, and although it makes me sad I have moved on.

I regret responding to this thread, and will move on there, too.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:43:24PM -0700, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> The public won't use mk or make. If you want to succeed in the world,

Oh good, is this where we find out we've all been using the wrong
version of 'success'?  Not everone has your goals.  Still.

>
> I regret responding to this thread
>

Agreed.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

might be, but I was also thinking on macos x, not just 9.

On Mar 23, 2013, at 8:37 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> If go install is slow on Plan 9, it's because Plan 9's file system is
> slow (which it is and always has been), and because go install does
> transitive dependencies correctly, which mk does not.
>
> -rob

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[David Leimbach]

Yup

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:17 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's pointless to complain about the size of "hello world". It's not a
> real program. In Go's case it's larger than a C binary because the
> libraries (and the presence of a runtime) are capable of much more
> under the covers, but by the time you write a real program in Go
> you'll find the ratio of Go binary to C binary isn't nearly so large;
> the incremental cost to the binary of a Go source file compared to a C
> Go file is negligible.
> 
> A house is much heavier than a tent, but it also has a much stronger foundation.
> 
> -rob
> 

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

> incremental improvement often fails.

why does it fail? I don't see why this has to be a rule.

a frequently annoying counterexample is when they yet again reinvent
the wheel, include a new "compatible" implementation of all the old
features and some new features, all based on some better design - and
most of the old bugs are gone, lots of things just work, lots of new
stuff even - but lots of stuff that used to work is now bugged also.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Gorka Guardiola]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much of which is symbols. Plus, a a simple computer has gigs of memory.
>
> Yes, it's remarkable how much bigger programs are now than they were
> 20 years ago, but 20 years ago the same things were being said. I
> understand your objection - I really do - but it's time to face the
> future. The smart phone in your pocket is roughly 100 times faster
> than the machine Plan 9 was developed on and has 1000 times the RAM.

I was merely stating facts, not criticising, as I am still learning about the go
implementation, and I am sure there are good reasons why all this is true.
In any case, the argument that there is more memory now is not a very good one
unless you use it for something useful. The phone is very powerful, but
it also runs on a battery and has to do many things on a budget, so that
is not really an argument. Saying why you need/use the giant tables for
may be.


- With greater power comes greater need for restrain.

G.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:15:20AM -0700, Rob Pike wrote:
> Much of which is symbols. Plus, a a simple computer has gigs of memory.
>
> Yes, it's remarkable how much bigger programs are now than they were
> 20 years ago, but 20 years ago the same things were being said. I
> understand your objection - I really do - but it's time to face the
> future. The smart phone in your pocket is roughly 100 times faster
> than the machine Plan 9 was developed on and has 1000 times the RAM.
> Computers are incredibly powerful now, and the technologies of today
> can use that power well (as I claim Go does) or poorly (as some others
> do), or ignore it at the risk of obsolescence.
>
> -rob
>

Ah, yes, the old "put more ram in your macbook" argument.  Some guy
bought an iphone, so we should immediately throw away any computers that
are not at least iphones.  This saves valuable programmer time, because
they don't have to optimize things instead of doing important work like
providing sixteen SQL libraries.

To the future!

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

To go back to the original subject, since gcc(1) has taken the C++ path,
I will be more than happy of an increase of Go programs since, thanks to
the work of some people, Go for Plan9 is possible.

As for the Go language, it is sufficiently near C, with extensions that
feel natural, to be interesting and easy to grasp for a C programmer
(and the gotour allows to start easily).

But it is the same as some parts of mathematics: I was not really
interested in them because they were not in the neighborhood of
what I was interested in at the moment. I finally got interested
in these parts later, when my wandering suddenly arrived in these
neglected parts, reminding me "something" (and then I saw why it
was interesting). So Go is stocked in a part of my mind, perhaps
simply waiting for a problem it will be the tool to solve.

But since I'm one of the few who use litterate programming (cweb), I
would probably start by wrinting a goweb instead of using the dedicated
tools...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Dustin Fechner]

On 03/24/2013 10:48 AM, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:
> But since I'm one of the few who use litterate programming (cweb), I
> would probably start by wrinting a goweb instead of using the dedicated
> tools...

https://bitbucket.org/santucco/goweb

The original thread from golang-nuts:
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/golang-nuts/6UlkxEB49Rc

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:56:54PM +0100, Dustin Fechner wrote:
> On 03/24/2013 10:48 AM, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:
> > But since I'm one of the few who use litterate programming (cweb), I
> > would probably start by wrinting a goweb instead of using the dedicated
> > tools...
>
> https://bitbucket.org/santucco/goweb
>
> The original thread from golang-nuts:
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/golang-nuts/6UlkxEB49Rc
>

Thanks for the info!
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Gorka Guardiola]

>> Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the 
>> runtime code are, well….
> 
> sorry to be dense.  larger than what?

C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

>> Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the 
>> runtime code are, well….
> 
> sorry to be dense.  larger than what?
> 
My guess "larger than they need to be" because the Go linker does not
drop unused library modules.  Nemo may mean something else, of course.

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Peter A. Cejchan]

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Yes, I run Go on native Plan9,
what I wanted toi say is that I would be happy to see some minimalistic (in
a spirit of plan9) written in, and integrated with, Go...
[Beat my English, as usually, I am not a native speaker]

And yes, binaries are extraordinarily huge (no idea, why). However, I still
like Go better than C, even though i _trelly loved C_ since i go my first C
compiler.

++pac


On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>wrote:

> go runs already on 9.
>
> Binaries are one order of magnitude larger and the go tool & part of the
> runtime code are, well….
>
> but it's already there.
>
> On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:40 PM, "Peter A. Cejchan" <tyapca7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  I still hope that some clone of plan9/nix/nxm will merge with Go
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> Yes, I run Go on native Plan9,

Go breaks away from a number of traditions that have long become
obsolete and that is its main merit.  The price is not only in having
to adjust to the change, but also in some sacred cows being
slaughtered in the process.

But Go also opens the door to better ways of doing things.  The build
system, raw as it still is, is streets ahead of any conventional build
system, but it is tightly coupled to the language.  Portability across
platforms is much easier, in the Plan 9 tradition, but requires a set
of build tools ([568][ac]) that users are not familiar with and [568]l
becomes the new bottleneck, to many users' surprise.
Cross-development - my favourite feature - becomes much easier, but I
am having a great deal of trouble getting my head around all the
complications it brings with it.

Philosophically, Plan 9 has rattled the proverbial cage and Go is an
earthquake by comparison.  The outcome is still to be evaluated.  But
not everyone is going to see it in the same way.

Of relevance here is that if Rob and Russ and Ken had let
considerations such as pampering slow hardware, we'd have a different
language and many features would not be available.  At the same time,
the need for a slim version of Go will grow with acceptance of the fat
model and then people like Kurt may be inspired to restore in the
linker the ability to trim libraries of unused modules (don't hold
your breath!).

If the Go developers had started from the other end, as I would have
been tempted to do, the outcome would definitely look nothing like
what we have.

The nice bit is that there are enough people out there to consider
such options and some of them are actually willing to publish their
efforts.

The people who insists that ONE tool should encompass all these
options are those who are too unproductive to do it themselves and
fail to see that no-one owes them.

In my other life managing a backpackers, I see way too many young
people who seem to think that our generation somehow owe them
something they are able but not willing to seek for themselves.  I
could tell you where most of them seem to come from, but I'm sure that
would be unfair to all those they leave behind while spending money
they did not earn to travel in comfort around the world.

++L

PS:	Gorka is making amazing progress with the plan9/arm port and the
	reason I know is that I've just tested his latest efforts on the
	Sheevaplug and the present obstacle does not seem unsurmountable -
	but it is very real, so "it's not working yet".  Watch golang-dev
	on Google Groups for updates.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

I see once again it's a matter of tone.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 08:27:33AM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>
> Philosophically, Plan 9 has rattled the proverbial cage and Go is an
> earthquake by comparison.  The outcome is still to be evaluated.  But
> not everyone is going to see it in the same way.
>

Absolutely correct.  In the sector I work, it will be years and years
before any of Go's benefits trickle up; its mode of parallelism does not
apply well to my systems.  In the meantime, it does nobody any good to
pre-emptively stifle someone's investigations by posting terse messages
about how irrelevant it is and how the current decisions are the right
ones -- at least without providing any kind of technical insight inside
the message.

> Of relevance here is that if Rob and Russ and Ken had let
> considerations such as pampering slow hardware, we'd have a different
> language and many features would not be available.  At the same time,
> the need for a slim version of Go will grow with acceptance of the fat
> model and then people like Kurt may be inspired to restore in the
> linker the ability to trim libraries of unused modules (don't hold
> your breath!).

Indeed.  One shouldn't hold breath on this topic, because Kurt's not in
the business of repairing software.  In fact, Kurt's business doesn't
overlap with Plan 9 or Go in the slightest -- he's a Plan 9 hobbiest who
has assessed that Go solves very specific problems which don't affect
him.  That's why he's subscribed to 9fans and not golang-nuts.

>
> The people who insists that ONE tool should encompass all these
> options are those who are too unproductive to do it themselves and
> fail to see that no-one owes them.
>
> In my other life managing a backpackers, I see way too many young
> people who seem to think that our generation somehow owe them
> something they are able but not willing to seek for themselves.  I
> could tell you where most of them seem to come from, but I'm sure that
> would be unfair to all those they leave behind while spending money
> they did not earn to travel in comfort around the world.
>

Yes, let's talk about entitlements.  There are people here who seem to
think that one tool should encompass all options, and that that tool is
the Labs distribution.  All of this acrimony needs to go away.
Different people have different goals, and it's not the job of the 9fans
hegemony to ascribe value to these goals.  I personally don't care if
someone wants to get gcc 4.8 built on Plan 9, for exactly the same
reason I don't care about the size of the binaries Go produces.  I don't
need or want either tool, but when people -- especially people in
current or former leadership positions on these projects -- show up just
to slag articles of curiosity for no particular reason, I'm going to
make fun of them.

I know that the population of 9fans contains a sizeable percentage of
people who would like to cast Plan 9 in amber, to hold it immutable as
an example to future generations.  That's an unrealistic expectation.

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> I know that the population of 9fans contains a sizeable percentage of
> people who would like to cast Plan 9 in amber, to hold it immutable as
> an example to future generations.  That's an unrealistic expectation.

Maybe, but maybe that's the best we can do, given that the conditions
that gave rise to Plan 9 have long ceased to exist and are unlikely to
recur.  A version of Plan 9 untainted by the predominance of the Intel
and Windows philosophies is needed to reminds us of how things could
have turned out.

But it is all much more complex than a mailing list could possibly
track.  Since the 1970s, it is clear that technology has taken a
number of quantum leaps that could have landed in different places and
all the missed opportunities, good and bad, need to be recorded as
well as explored because we sure as hell are not in the best of all
possible futures, right now.  Unless you're some virtual entity such
as Microsoft, Intel, Google or Facebook and could not care less about
the fate of individuals.

Oops, that's probably a bit rambly, but I think most observers will
understand.

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[sl]

> Maybe, but maybe that's the best we can do, given that the conditions
> that gave rise to Plan 9 have long ceased to exist and are unlikely to
> recur.

And maybe we're missing the point but there are still
a few of us out there using Plan 9 daily as our primary
interface to computers. For some of us, for the tasks we
are performing, we just don't need all this modern crap
that seems to have broken everyone else's heart.

-sl

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[aram]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 7:19 PM,  <sl@9front.org> wrote:
>> Maybe, but maybe that's the best we can do, given that the conditions
>> that gave rise to Plan 9 have long ceased to exist and are unlikely to
>> recur.
>
> And maybe we're missing the point but there are still
> a few of us out there using Plan 9 daily as our primary
> interface to computers. For some of us, for the tasks we
> are performing, we just don't need all this modern crap
> that seems to have broken everyone else's heart.
>
> -sl

And how do you manage to browser the web?

Just to do that I'm forced to use software bigger and more complex
than plan9 itself.

Sincerely,
Aram

--
http://thewayofthecode.posterous.com/

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[sl]

> And how do you manage to browser the web?

9front did some work on mothra. For trivial javascript
I try charon (which was sufficient to configure my wifi
router). As a last resort I VNC to another operating
system.

For the vast majority of what I do, mothra is sufficient.

-sl

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Bence Fábián]

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2013/3/25 <sl@9front.org>

> > And how do you manage to browser the web?
>
> 9front did some work on mothra. For trivial javascript
> I try charon (which was sufficient to configure my wifi
> router). As a last resort I VNC to another operating
> system.
>
> For the vast majority of what I do, mothra is sufficient.
>
> -sl
>
>
Yes. This. I run my terminals in qemu/kvm on linux, My servers on real
hardware. Or "in the cloud" (thanks Kurt).  And i switch back to linux
for mplayer and to watch youtube videos (and for some  other websites)
but i really like mothra. It's so pure. You just gotta love it. The 9front
guys did a really good job with it. I even use Plan 9 at my workspace. I
just ftpfs everything and massage my namespace anyway i want. And give the
occasional $MAKE command through ssh. It's so noiseless. Of course there
is room for improvement. But I can't complain I have all the tools ☺

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[sl]

> but i really like mothra. It's so pure. You just gotta love it. The 9front
> guys did a really good job with it.

To be clear:

Tom Duff created mothra. We made some alterations.

-sl

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Bence Fábián]

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That's what i meant. May be i wasn't clear. So mothra by Tom is great.
And the 9front guys really improved on it.


2013/3/26 <sl@9front.org>

> > but i really like mothra. It's so pure. You just gotta love it. The
> 9front
> > guys did a really good job with it.
>
> To be clear:
>
> Tom Duff created mothra. We made some alterations.
>
> -sl
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 07:31:27PM +0000, aram wrote:
>
> And how do you manage to browser the web?
>

It is possible to use computers without also using javascript.

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> It is possible to use computers without also using javascript.

But it's a strange thing to want to do.  A bit like asking for the
Ford Model T gear shift in a modern car.

Choices have been made by those who had the right influence (you may
want to call it power) and some of those choices were known to be
wrong at the time or were discovered to be wrong subsequently - we
call this history.  The best we can do now is to make sure that when
new choices present themselves (which is all the time, of course) the
decision making is closer to the needs of those who have to live with
them.  The rest is known familiarly as politics.

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 06:45:33AM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> But it's a strange thing to want to do.  A bit like asking for the
> Ford Model T gear shift in a modern car.

I reject this analogy and the implied value judgement.

> Choices have been made by those who had the right influence (you may
> want to call it power) and some of those choices were known to be
> wrong at the time or were discovered to be wrong subsequently - we
> call this history.  The best we can do now is to make sure that when
> new choices present themselves (which is all the time, of course) the
> decision making is closer to the needs of those who have to live with
> them.  The rest is known familiarly as politics.

What is your point?  I need to elevate myself with in trade
organizations to avoid using javascript?  I'm not sure where you're
going with this.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[iainws]

On Tuesday, 26 March 2013 17:03:14 UTC+11, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 06:45:33AM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>
> > But it's a strange thing to want to do.  A bit like asking for the
>
> > Ford Model T gear shift in a modern car.
>
>
>
> I reject this analogy and the implied value judgement.
>
>
>
> > Choices have been made by those who had the right influence (you may
>
> > want to call it power) and some of those choices were known to be
>
> > wrong at the time or were discovered to be wrong subsequently - we
>
> > call this history.  The best we can do now is to make sure that when
>
> > new choices present themselves (which is all the time, of course) the
>
> > decision making is closer to the needs of those who have to live with
>
> > them.  The rest is known familiarly as politics.
>
>
>
> What is your point?  I need to elevate myself with in trade
>
> organizations to avoid using javascript?  I'm not sure where you're
>
> going with this.

It is a pointless reflection. There is no need for a Model T gear
box, and there hasn't been for years.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[sl]

>> It is possible to use computers without also using javascript.
>
> But it's a strange thing to want to do.  A bit like asking for the
> Ford Model T gear shift in a modern car.

Your addiction to popular web browsers is your own problem.

http://img.stanleylieber.com/src/15137/img/1364299588.jpg

-sl

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rubén Berenguel]

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I'm starting to wonder why I decided to subscribe to yet another newsgroup,
after having unsubscribed from so many in the past for lack of content. I
guess I never learn the required lessons.

Ruben

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 1:07 PM, <sl@9front.org> wrote:

> >> It is possible to use computers without also using javascript.
> >
> > But it's a strange thing to want to do.  A bit like asking for the
> > Ford Model T gear shift in a modern car.
>
> Your addiction to popular web browsers is your own problem.
>
> http://img.stanleylieber.com/src/15137/img/1364299588.jpg
>
> -sl
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[dexen deVries]

On Tuesday 26 of March 2013 13:11:11 Rubén Berenguel wrote:
> I'm starting to wonder why I decided to subscribe to yet another newsgroup,
> after having unsubscribed from so many in the past for lack of content. I
> guess I never learn the required lessons.


as a counterport, picolisp@software-lab.de has never let me down ;-)

(archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/ )


cheers,

-- 
dexen deVries

[[[↓][→]]]


``we, the humanity'' is the greatest experiment we, the humanity, ever 
undertook. 

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

I'm subscribed to this mailgroup so I can find out why other people
are subscribed to this mailgroup.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rubén Berenguel]

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That's pretty meta on your part Hiro. I'm here for plan9 knowledge, tips,
tricks, news and related things (I guess go is a related thing, although I
still have to manage to install it... mercurial screwed me up last time I
tried to install it in P9)

As for picolisp dexen... Have never checked it (I program in Lisp
occasionally, so it's not fear of the lots of innecessary and stupid
parentheses :) , I try to keep newsgroups to the bare minimum. Up to until
now I was in just one more (the Ben Nanonote user/developer list) but
decided adding one more couldn't be as bad as I feared.

Ruben

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 1:16 PM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm subscribed to this mailgroup so I can find out why other people
> are subscribed to this mailgroup.
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 26 March 2013 12:11, Rubén Berenguel <ruben@mostlymaths.net> wrote:

> I'm starting to wonder why I decided to subscribe to yet another
> newsgroup, after having unsubscribed from so many in the past for lack of
> content.


Any unmoderated list is likely to have bursts of somewhat diffuse
exchanges. Normally 9fans is fairly quiet, and the content might be more
technically relevant
for you (if you're interested in the system). It's a way to get some
questions answered (eg, "how do I boot my Raspberry Pi?"), but not all (in
my case, "where did I put my Raspberry Pi?").

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Rubén Berenguel]

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Where did I put my Raspberry Pi is one of the few questions I don't have :D
Currently my worse problem is "I have my router upstairs and HDMI TV
downstairs." No chord :(

So far I've found the answers I was looking (more or less, still can't get
gmail to work with acme/Mail, unknown error :/) but I have seen much
pointless emails in the last 2 weeks and I was thinking of shutting the
thing.

Ruben

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Charles Forsyth
<charles.forsyth@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On 26 March 2013 12:11, Rubén Berenguel <ruben@mostlymaths.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm starting to wonder why I decided to subscribe to yet another
>> newsgroup, after having unsubscribed from so many in the past for lack of
>> content.
>
>
> Any unmoderated list is likely to have bursts of somewhat diffuse
> exchanges. Normally 9fans is fairly quiet, and the content might be more
> technically relevant
> for you (if you're interested in the system). It's a way to get some
> questions answered (eg, "how do I boot my Raspberry Pi?"), but not all (in
> my case, "where did I put my Raspberry Pi?").
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[dexen deVries]

On Monday 25 of March 2013 19:31:27 aram wrote:
> 
> And how do you manage to browser the web?


web is made with Acme and deployed with mk, at least while i am on it.

when i needed a HTTP server for an FPS game files (Xonotic), i quickly 
scribbled a script in Rc. at a measly few dozen lines it had proper `Range' 
support.


-- 
dexen deVries

[[[↓][→]]]

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[erik quanstrom]

> Maybe, but maybe that's the best we can do, given that the conditions
> that gave rise to Plan 9 have long ceased to exist and are unlikely to
> recur.  A version of Plan 9 untainted by the predominance of the Intel
> and Windows philosophies is needed to reminds us of how things could
> have turned out.

what conditions do you feel gave rise to plan 9 that no longer exist?

- erik

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> what conditions do you feel gave rise to plan 9 that no longer exist?

Modem speeds below 19200bps?  Reality engines costing as much as
houses and considerably less accessible?  Skill sets in IT
practitioners way above the norm?  Everything that the desktop PC
eventually brought to an end, I suppose.

In a word, elitism, largely earned rather than inherited.  You did
ask!

++L

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[andrey mirtchovski]

> In a word, elitism, largely earned rather than inherited.  You did
> ask!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4398842

it doesn't matter if it's real or not :)

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 01:51:56PM -0600, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> > In a word, elitism, largely earned rather than inherited.  You did
> > ask!
>
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4398842
>
> it doesn't matter if it's real or not :)

This is the first time, I feel I match one criterion to belong to a
community!
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[sl]

> what conditions do you feel gave rise to plan 9 that no longer exist?

I think there is a feeling that Plan 9 was created to address
specific problems (refraining from turning easy jobs into hard
jobs, translated as getting real work done on slow hardware) that
have been overtaken by history and the observed progression of
technology.

-sl

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 03:38:26PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
> what conditions do you feel gave rise to plan 9 that no longer exist?
>
> - erik
>

Bell Labs' budget, talent pool, and institutional administrative
philsosophy.

khm

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Balwinder S Dheeman]

On 03/25/2013 11:57 AM, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> Yes, I run Go on native Plan9,
>
> Go breaks away from a number of traditions that have long become
> obsolete and that is its main merit.  The price is not only in having
> to adjust to the change, but also in some sacred cows being
> slaughtered in the process.
>
> But Go also opens the door to better ways of doing things.  The build
> system, raw as it still is, is streets ahead of any conventional build
> system, but it is tightly coupled to the language.  Portability across
> platforms is much easier, in the Plan 9 tradition, but requires a set
> of build tools ([568][ac]) that users are not familiar with and [568]l
> becomes the new bottleneck, to many users' surprise.
> Cross-development - my favourite feature - becomes much easier, but I
> am having a great deal of trouble getting my head around all the
> complications it brings with it.
>
> Philosophically, Plan 9 has rattled the proverbial cage and Go is an
> earthquake by comparison.  The outcome is still to be evaluated.  But
> not everyone is going to see it in the same way.
>
> Of relevance here is that if Rob and Russ and Ken had let
> considerations such as pampering slow hardware, we'd have a different
> language and many features would not be available.  At the same time,
> the need for a slim version of Go will grow with acceptance of the fat
> model and then people like Kurt may be inspired to restore in the
> linker the ability to trim libraries of unused modules (don't hold
> your breath!).
>
> If the Go developers had started from the other end, as I would have
> been tempted to do, the outcome would definitely look nothing like
> what we have.
>
> The nice bit is that there are enough people out there to consider
> such options and some of them are actually willing to publish their
> efforts.
>
> The people who insists that ONE tool should encompass all these
> options are those who are too unproductive to do it themselves and
> fail to see that no-one owes them.
>
> In my other life managing a backpackers, I see way too many young
> people who seem to think that our generation somehow owe them
> something they are able but not willing to seek for themselves.  I
> could tell you where most of them seem to come from, but I'm sure that
> would be unfair to all those they leave behind while spending money
> they did not earn to travel in comfort around the world.
>
> ++L
>
> PS:	Gorka is making amazing progress with the plan9/arm port and the
> 	reason I know is that I've just tested his latest efforts on the
> 	Sheevaplug and the present obstacle does not seem unsurmountable -
> 	but it is very real, so "it's not working yet".  Watch golang-dev
> 	on Google Groups for updates.
>

For me Go is an overkill in same line and, or manner as is Java; I hate
Java, C# and the .NET in particular; Have not checked Inferno/Limbo as
yet to the requisite depth...

Q. What is GC (Garbage collection)?
A. Yet another approach to create inefficiency in the programmers :P

--
Balwinder S 'bdheeman' Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)

"GNU/Linux, developed by volunteers, is much better, but it's not
the best as yet. Do you too work on making a difference?"

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[hiro]

On 3/23/13, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Lucio: I still hope that some clone of plan9/nix/nxm will merge with Go
> ... just my dream, and I am just an embryo of a programmer
> (as multiply stated here and elsewhere) so take it easy.... however, I'm
> moving all my old  stuff (and creating new one) to Go
> [unfortunately, I am afraid I will never see the 9GoNix OS ;-) brought into
> life]

do I need 3d glasses to read your text? words don't really stick out
with all these random parantheses, strange punctuations and
double-spaces.

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Peter A. Cejchan]

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Sorry for that. I am not a natuive speaker. English uses different
punctuation then my mothertongue.
However, I hope you got what I wanted to say.

++pac

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 6:08 PM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/23/13, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
> > @Lucio: I still hope that some clone of plan9/nix/nxm will merge with Go
> > ... just my dream, and I am just an embryo of a programmer
> > (as multiply stated here and elsewhere) so take it easy.... however, I'm
> > moving all my old  stuff (and creating new one) to Go
> > [unfortunately, I am afraid I will never see the 9GoNix OS ;-) brought
> into
> > life]
>
> do I need 3d glasses to read your text? words don't really stick out
> with all these random parantheses, strange punctuations and
> double-spaces.
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Peter A. Cejchan]

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So, you perceive it, too.... unfortunately, then there will be no more
computers, even electric power.... nomads don't need it, and won't care :-(
++pac



> IMHO, with the advent of a crisis compared to which 1929 will be a
> minor storm, there will be a general disgust and lack of trust and a
> return for crucial things to small is beautiful (and safer).
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:54:14AM +0100, Peter A. Cejchan wrote:
> So, you perceive it, too.... unfortunately, then there will be no more
> computers, even electric power.... nomads don't need it, and won't care :-(
> ++pac
> 
> 
> 
> > IMHO, with the advent of a crisis compared to which 1929 will be a
> > minor storm, there will be a general disgust and lack of trust and a
> > return for crucial things to small is beautiful (and safer).
> >

I guess you are in Europe too? The only ones to refuse to see it can be
described by François Mauriac's sentence: "The ostrich hides in the sand
is little brainless head, trying to persuade itself that its feathered
rear is offending nobody's eyes."
-- 
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Peter A. Cejchan]

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Yep...

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 11:10 AM, <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:54:14AM +0100, Peter A. Cejchan wrote:
> > So, you perceive it, too.... unfortunately, then there will be no more
> > computers, even electric power.... nomads don't need it, and won't care
> :-(
> > ++pac
> >
> >
> >
> > > IMHO, with the advent of a crisis compared to which 1929 will be a
> > > minor storm, there will be a general disgust and lack of trust and a
> > > return for crucial things to small is beautiful (and safer).
> > >
>
> I guess you are in Europe too? The only ones to refuse to see it can be
> described by François Mauriac's sentence: "The ostrich hides in the sand
> is little brainless head, trying to persuade itself that its feathered
> rear is offending nobody's eyes."
> --
>         Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                       http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>

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Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[Bakul Shah]

It has long been the case that gcc can only be compiled with gcc. Switching its impl. lang. to c++ doesn't make the porting problem any worse.

The other "industrial strength" open source c/c++ compiler clang/llvm is also written in c++.

They can both be built on windows so it would certainly be possible to port them to plan9 if there was real demand. 

Re: [9fans] gcc not an option for Plan9

[lucio]

> It has long been the case that gcc can only be compiled with gcc. Switching its impl. lang. to c++ doesn't make the porting problem any worse.
>
> The other "industrial strength" open source c/c++ compiler clang/llvm is also written in c++.
>
> They can both be built on windows so it would certainly be possible to port them to plan9 if there was real demand.

+1

++L