Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Steffen "Daode" Nurpmeso <sdaoden@gmail.com>]

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Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
 |This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have

These pages contain indeed several of the most stupid things
i have read in a very long time.

 |macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and
 |an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world
 |without it.

Never has there been a more versatile freely accessible
environment than today, both, systems and languages.
And cheap, energy efficient computers for poor kids, which is
a good thing, though indeed wasting resources is per se not a good
thing, which intelligent tribes with highly sophisticated cultures
knew several thousand years ago already.  That is why we have
superseeded them.  And that is why harmful is harmful, imho.
Not that it matters.

--steffen

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From: Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:54:19 +0000
Message-ID: <20131223235419.Horde.Ld29eJHbaIBoe0oX_BOLhQ2@ssl.eumx.net>

Quoting erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:

> On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, sl@9front.org wrote:

> isn't this a false dichotomy?  rudeness doesn't preserve value.

Neither does gladhanding.

> it's easy to point out past mistakes.  do you think these were obvious
> at the time they were made?

Whether they were obvious is too subjective to determine.  They were
(often very loudly) recognized as mistakes.  The problem, as usual,
is that a well-funded mistake is far more likely to succeed than an
impoverished masterpiece.

Obvious?  I'll never know.  But people I respect decried lots of these
decisions at the time they were made.  Without getting into the chicken-
and-egg problem of how I came to respect some of these people, in a lot
of cases, stumbling across an angry netnews missive from a usenet address
I trusted was catalytic in my process of coming to grips with some
understanding of correct software design.

The Unix Hater's Handbook is a collection of articles in this vein; there
are systems eulogized therein which were displaced by the rise of unix,
and whose passing makes me truly sad to have missed out on an era of
computing with real diversity in system design.

This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have
any interest in suffering fools on internet mailing lists.  If community
is important in guiding software trends, it's important to nip encroaching
macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and
an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world
without it.

People like Blake can present me with bullshit about 'living in a cave' all
day long -- but the surest way to prevent mistakes is to cause people to
defend proposed change within an inch of their lives.  That's the original
point of a thesis defense, and the principal is no less valid on a mail
list.  Most people seem to take such challenges personally;  this is just
because they're not used to being challenged.  It will pass.

khm