From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:06:38 +0100 From: Steffen "Daode" Nurpmeso To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20131224120638.TiRBCYhe+Y1mWt4PKmCnNLKG@dietcurd.local> References: <20131223182840.Horde.HuKfFKF2fZoroKVTFstUiw4@ssl.eumx.net> <20131223205159.Horde.iY9hvHuKffSBozksmDay4A5@ssl> <214e5e9f99e73a1094433938b5e1dc0c@pi.att> <18b8d3d0c6c2a261b2c805e625081143@ladd.quanstro.net> <20131223235419.Horde.Ld29eJHbaIBoe0oX_BOLhQ2@ssl.eumx.net> In-Reply-To: <20131223235419.Horde.Ld29eJHbaIBoe0oX_BOLhQ2@ssl.eumx.net> User-Agent: s-nail v14.5-15-ge66ca11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_01387886798=-dSi/UH7kzsh6ahFlcsC9ujuCfayFoK=_" Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front Topicbox-Message-UUID: a7f5ece4-ead8-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=_01387886798=-dSi/UH7kzsh6ahFlcsC9ujuCfayFoK=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Kurt H Maier wrote: |This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have These pages contain indeed several of the most stupid things i have read in a very long time. |macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and |an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world |without it. Never has there been a more versatile freely accessible environment than today, both, systems and languages. And cheap, energy efficient computers for poor kids, which is a good thing, though indeed wasting resources is per se not a good thing, which intelligent tribes with highly sophisticated cultures knew several thousand years ago already. That is why we have superseeded them. And that is why harmful is harmful, imho. Not that it matters. --steffen --=_01387886798=-dSi/UH7kzsh6ahFlcsC9ujuCfayFoK=_ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Original message content Delivered-To: sdaoden@gmail.com Received: by 10.42.112.10 with SMTP id w10csp344107icp; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:56:02 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.43.138.8 with SMTP id iq8mr18858384icc.37.1387842961844; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:56:01 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: <9fans-bounces@9fans.net> Received: from mail.9fans.net (mail.9fans.net. [67.207.142.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o4si22786418igb.6.2013.12.23.15.55.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of 9fans-bounces@9fans.net designates 67.207.142.3 as permitted sender) client-ip=67.207.142.3; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of 9fans-bounces@9fans.net designates 67.207.142.3 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=9fans-bounces@9fans.net Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[67.207.142.3]) by mail.9fans.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <9fans-bounces@9fans.net>) id 1VvFaS-0000uA-Hq; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:11:04 +0000 Received: from gw18.lax01.mailroute.net ([199.89.0.118] helo=mail.mailroute.net) by mail.9fans.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvFaQ-0000u5-NU for 9fans@9fans.net; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:11:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gw18.lax01.mailroute.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3dpHTq61R7z1N7qG for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:54:23 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by MailRoute X-X-Spam-Flag: NO X-X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-X-Spam-Level: X-X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-9999 tests=[MR_RCVD_TLS=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=disabled Received: from gw18.lax01.mailroute.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (gw18.lax01.mailroute.net [127.0.0.1]) (mroute_mailscanner, port 10024) with LMTP id guZV4VtpUtR0 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:54:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from owm.eumx.net (eumx.net [91.82.101.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gw18.lax01.mailroute.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3dpHTn6ZbXz1N7m9 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:54:21 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:54:19 +0000 Message-ID: <20131223235419.Horde.Ld29eJHbaIBoe0oX_BOLhQ2@ssl.eumx.net> From: Kurt H Maier To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <20131223182840.Horde.HuKfFKF2fZoroKVTFstUiw4@ssl.eumx.net> <20131223205159.Horde.iY9hvHuKffSBozksmDay4A5@ssl> <214e5e9f99e73a1094433938b5e1dc0c@pi.att> <18b8d3d0c6c2a261b2c805e625081143@ladd.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <18b8d3d0c6c2a261b2c805e625081143@ladd.quanstro.net> User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H5 (6.1.4) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front X-BeenThere: 9fans@9fans.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net Errors-To: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net Status: RO Quoting erik quanstrom : > On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, sl@9front.org wrote: > isn't this a false dichotomy? rudeness doesn't preserve value. Neither does gladhanding. > it's easy to point out past mistakes. do you think these were obvious > at the time they were made? Whether they were obvious is too subjective to determine. They were (often very loudly) recognized as mistakes. The problem, as usual, is that a well-funded mistake is far more likely to succeed than an impoverished masterpiece. Obvious? I'll never know. But people I respect decried lots of these decisions at the time they were made. Without getting into the chicken- and-egg problem of how I came to respect some of these people, in a lot of cases, stumbling across an angry netnews missive from a usenet address I trusted was catalytic in my process of coming to grips with some understanding of correct software design. The Unix Hater's Handbook is a collection of articles in this vein; there are systems eulogized therein which were displaced by the rise of unix, and whose passing makes me truly sad to have missed out on an era of computing with real diversity in system design. This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have any interest in suffering fools on internet mailing lists. If community is important in guiding software trends, it's important to nip encroaching macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world without it. People like Blake can present me with bullshit about 'living in a cave' all day long -- but the surest way to prevent mistakes is to cause people to defend proposed change within an inch of their lives. That's the original point of a thesis defense, and the principal is no less valid on a mail list. Most people seem to take such challenges personally; this is just because they're not used to being challenged. It will pass. khm --=_01387886798=-dSi/UH7kzsh6ahFlcsC9ujuCfayFoK=_--