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* [9fans] RUDP and/or others
@ 2015-10-18 22:43 Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-18 22:48 ` Aleksandar Kuktin
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-18 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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Hash: SHA1

Hi all.

So there I was, shopping around for reliable datagram protocols when
BAM! I run straight into RUDP. "Designed at Bell Labs for the Plan 9
operating system". I just skimmed through the (expired) IETF draft from
1999 and I honestly think the design might be too much. It looks like
it's almost completely like TCP, but without segmenting and possibly
with double checksumming. Seems like overkill.

Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 22:43 [9fans] RUDP and/or others Aleksandar Kuktin
@ 2015-10-18 22:48 ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19  0:05   ` erik quanstrom
  2015-10-18 23:15 ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2015-10-19  9:14 ` Charles Forsyth
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-18 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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Hash: SHA1

>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 00:43:56 +0200
>Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!

BTW, the purpose of the exercise is to identify possible candidates for
transporting VNC, and that can be implemented in FPGA fabric. As in "the
entire stack".

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 22:43 [9fans] RUDP and/or others Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-18 22:48 ` Aleksandar Kuktin
@ 2015-10-18 23:15 ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2015-10-18 23:59   ` erik quanstrom
  2015-10-19 19:31   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19  9:14 ` Charles Forsyth
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2015-10-18 23:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!

are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 23:15 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2015-10-18 23:59   ` erik quanstrom
  2015-10-19  0:09     ` Kurt H Maier
  2015-10-19 19:36     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19 19:31   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2015-10-18 23:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sun Oct 18 16:16:59 PDT 2015, 9nut@9netics.com wrote:
> > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> > year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
>
> are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?

there's also rudp, which if i have gotten my second-hand stories straight, was used on
the pathstar backplane.

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 22:48 ` Aleksandar Kuktin
@ 2015-10-19  0:05   ` erik quanstrom
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2015-10-19  0:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sun Oct 18 15:53:44 PDT 2015, akuktin@gmail.com wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> >On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 00:43:56 +0200
> >Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> > year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
>
> BTW, the purpose of the exercise is to identify possible candidates for
> transporting VNC, and that can be implemented in FPGA fabric. As in "the
> entire stack".

the plan 9 source is here /sys/src/9/ip/rudp.c

what about encryption?

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 23:59   ` erik quanstrom
@ 2015-10-19  0:09     ` Kurt H Maier
  2015-10-19  0:35       ` erik quanstrom
  2015-10-19 19:36     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2015-10-19  0:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:59:44PM -0700, erik quanstrom wrote:
> On Sun Oct 18 16:16:59 PDT 2015, 9nut@9netics.com wrote:
> > > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> > > year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> >
> > are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?
>
> there's also rudp, which if i have gotten my second-hand stories straight, was used on
> the pathstar backplane.
>
> - erik
>

I second this.  Aleksandar, you should investigate RUDP as soon as
possible.

khm



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19  0:09     ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2015-10-19  0:35       ` erik quanstrom
  2015-10-19  0:48         ` Kurt H Maier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2015-10-19  0:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sun Oct 18 17:11:11 PDT 2015, khm@sciops.net wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:59:44PM -0700, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > On Sun Oct 18 16:16:59 PDT 2015, 9nut@9netics.com wrote:
> > > > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> > > > year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> > >
> > > are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?
> >
> > there's also rudp, which if i have gotten my second-hand stories straight, was used on
> > the pathstar backplane.
> >
> > - erik
> >
>
> I second this.  Aleksandar, you should investigate RUDP as soon as
> possible.

for clarity, i was neither recommending or not recommending rudp, as i know
nothing about the problem to be solved except for the tidbits "fpga" and "vnc",
neither of which are something i've spent much time with.

good luck!

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19  0:35       ` erik quanstrom
@ 2015-10-19  0:48         ` Kurt H Maier
  2015-10-19  9:28           ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2015-10-19  0:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 05:35:40PM -0700, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
> for clarity, i was neither recommending or not recommending rudp, as i know
> nothing about the problem to be solved except for the tidbits "fpga" and "vnc",
> neither of which are something i've spent much time with.
>
> good luck!
>
> - erik
>

Still, worth bringing up.  He might have missed it otherwise.

khm



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 22:43 [9fans] RUDP and/or others Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-18 22:48 ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-18 23:15 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2015-10-19  9:14 ` Charles Forsyth
  2015-10-19 19:29   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2015-10-19  9:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 698 bytes --]

On 18 October 2015 at 23:43, Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com> wrote:

> BAM! I run straight into RUDP. "Designed at Bell Labs for the Plan 9
> operating system". I just skimmed through the (expired) IETF draft from
> 1999 and I honestly think the design might be too much. It looks like
> it's almost completely like TCP, but without segmenting and possibly
>

The Cisco RUDP defined in the IETF draft is not the rudp in the Plan 9 code.
Both use a UDP shell to carry their packets, but the two RUDP headers are
different.
The protocols seem to be unrelated. The Cisco one is derived from an
earlier BBN one,
and all three had the tcp-like  SYN/ACK/RST flags. Plan 9's does not.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19  0:48         ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2015-10-19  9:28           ` hiro
  2015-10-19 20:42             ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2015-10-19  9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Do I understand correctly, you just want to avoid having to implement
the complexities of TCP on an fpga? If there was a TCP IP core would
you buy it?
Why does VNC require an fpga, are you going to transfer enormous resolutions?
If yes then I personally would use UDP and a lossy and loss tolerant
compression.
If not I would use TCP and no FPGA.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19  9:14 ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2015-10-19 19:29   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-19 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:14:46 +0100
>Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 18 October 2015 at 23:43, Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > BAM! I run straight into RUDP. "Designed at Bell Labs for the Plan 9
> > operating system". I just skimmed through the (expired) IETF draft
> > from 1999 and I honestly think the design might be too much. It
> > looks like it's almost completely like TCP, but without segmenting
> > and possibly
> >
> 
> The Cisco RUDP defined in the IETF draft is not the rudp in the Plan
> 9 code. Both use a UDP shell to carry their packets, but the two RUDP
> headers are different.

There are two RUDPs?  O.o

> The protocols seem to be unrelated. The Cisco one is derived from an
> earlier BBN one,
> and all three had the tcp-like  SYN/ACK/RST flags. Plan 9's does not.

That's a good thing. The less flags and states, the better.

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 23:15 ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2015-10-18 23:59   ` erik quanstrom
@ 2015-10-19 19:31   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19 20:57     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19 21:17     ` Charles Forsyth
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-19 19:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Hash: SHA1

>On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:15:13 -0700
>Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw
> > one a year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> 
> are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?

I seem to remember IL being more complex than just a UDP with counters
and ACK, which is what I'm - sort of - looking for.

But I'll look into it, it's worth it.

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-18 23:59   ` erik quanstrom
  2015-10-19  0:09     ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2015-10-19 19:36     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19 20:53       ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-19 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Hash: SHA1

>On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:59:44 -0700
>erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>
> On Sun Oct 18 16:16:59 PDT 2015, 9nut@9netics.com wrote:
> > > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw
> > > one a year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> > 
> > are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?
> 
> there's also rudp, which if i have gotten my second-hand stories
> straight, was used on the pathstar backplane.
> 
> - erik

You mean the telecom stuff?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7738449.html (no Google allowed)

I only read the abstract and found "pathstar" mentioned in references.
- From a Bell Labs Technical Journal, no less. :)

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19  9:28           ` hiro
@ 2015-10-19 20:42             ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-19 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Hash: SHA1

>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:28:13 +0200
>hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do I understand correctly, you just want to avoid having to implement
> the complexities of TCP on an fpga? If there was a TCP IP core would
> you buy it?
> Why does VNC require an fpga, are you going to transfer enormous
> resolutions? If yes then I personally would use UDP and a lossy and
> loss tolerant compression.
> If not I would use TCP and no FPGA.

The idea here is to implement a FOSH computer. Currently, I'm pilfering
a lot of technology from Milkymist but I already had to write my own
bits of hardware - so far only a memory controler. I wasn't happy with
what Milkymist was using so I wrote my own. By the time I finish, I'll
probably also implement the framebuffer with the video output. Gigabit
ethernet is also somewhere in the pipeline and will probably get
implemented, *if* I can get its analog bits to work properly. I already
have a working 10BASE-T implementation (and some other things) so I'm
not a newbie at this.

However, because of the severe speed limits imposed by the
implementation technology (FPGA), this computer will never be
particularly fast. If you want to play pretty video games and watch
pretty CGI videos, the obvious solution is to have a separate computer
serve as the CPU server and renderer with the bitty box being a
terminal.

One option is to do the normal software based processing. But once you
do the math, you realize that either you won't be sending a lot of
data or your FPGA CPU won't be doing a lot of processing because of the
interaction between system components contending to access the main
memory.

The main memory is implemented as DDR1 SDRAM. DRAM *really* doesn't
like random memory accesses - the kind CPU will execute. You can
optimize the memory controller to serve the CPU well, but then you are
left in a bind when it comes time to implement the DMA because it
has the exact opposite memory access profile. Not having the DMA is
completely and absolutely out of the question, ofcourse.

You can use, perhaps, wide memory buses and well optimized cache line
sizes to perform DMA in short bursts, but each DMA-CPU switchover is
expensive because (unless you get really lucky) you need to open and
close memory pages. This sets an upper limit to the data transfer
before the human usability of the system tanks.

Streaming 1280x1024x24 video at 25 fps is, you guessed it, way beyond
that limit.

So the solution, I believe, is to perform DMA at the different point,
specifically, between the network interface and the framebuffer/video
card. This scheme completely bypasses the main memory, leaving the CPU
to run at full capacity but has the drawback that now the framebuffer
has to talk network. The obvious hack is to have the CPU initiate,
handshake and configure the connection and then hand it over to the
framebuffer for data transfer. The obvious problem is that the
framebuffer STILL needs to talk network, albeit not whole protocols but only the grindy parts, leaving the more intricate bits to the CPU.

Did I mention network analysis needs to be on-the-fly? Yeah, there
ain't enough memory on the chip to store the whole network packet, and
there aren't enough I/O pins on the device to store it off-device. So
you just have to handle the packet literally as it is zooming past you. Receive the headers, analyze if the packet is for us or the CPU (and
route it there if that's the case), read the application headers, set
up the datapath, ram data into the video DRAM and maybe
invalidate/rollback the whole operation if any of the myriad checksums
indicate a transmission error. Yes, we're checksumming. :)

I'm not saying it's possible, I'm only saying that I'll try and that I
need a simple transport protocol to help me do it. :)

I chose VNC because (a) it's actually a pretty neat protocol and (b)
it's all over the place. You could use it to interface to a whole host
of applications. VNC, on its side, requires a reliable transport. TCP
is way too complicated for a few thousand gates of digital logic (I
think) and UDP is not reliable enough. So, I went looking.

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19 19:36     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
@ 2015-10-19 20:53       ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-19 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:36:55 +0200
>Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7738449.html (no Google allowed)
> 
> I only read the abstract and found "pathstar" mentioned in references.
> - From a Bell Labs Technical Journal, no less. :)

No, it mentioned pathstarT, with a 't' at the end. Or is that a typo?

Apparently the same article is mentioned here:
https://www.google.com/patents/US7170854 (okay, some Google allowed)

I can't read it because Google thinks I'm a robot and won't perform the
search for me.

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19 19:31   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
@ 2015-10-19 20:57     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19 21:17     ` Charles Forsyth
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Aleksandar Kuktin @ 2015-10-19 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:31:43 +0200
>Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> >On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:15:13 -0700
> >Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw
> > > one a year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> > 
> > are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?
> 
> I seem to remember IL being more complex than just a UDP with counters
> and ACK, which is what I'm - sort of - looking for.
> 
> But I'll look into it, it's worth it.

TFTP?

- -- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
- --
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2015-10-19 19:31   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
  2015-10-19 20:57     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
@ 2015-10-19 21:17     ` Charles Forsyth
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2015-10-19 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1003 bytes --]

On 19 October 2015 at 20:31, Aleksandar Kuktin <akuktin@gmail.com> wrote:

> I seem to remember IL being more complex than just a UDP with counters
> and ACK, which is what I'm - sort of - looking for.
>

I think you might find Plan 9's rudp is essentially that. Conversations are
determined by
a generation number; packets are labelled  (gen, seq) for seq within a
given generation gen;
and acks are piggybacked as (agen, aseq) in every packet. The header is just

uchar relseq[4]; /* id of this packet (or 0) */
uchar relsgen[4]; /* generation/time stamp */
uchar relack[4]; /* packet being acked (or 0) */
uchar relagen[4]; /* generation/time stamp */

I can't say much about how well it works, because it has been years since I
last poked at it,
and for my purposes I thought I needed something more elaborate (but I
might have been wrong about that).
In your case, allowing for implementation bugs, it sounds as though it
might work for you, or at least be easily adaptable.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2362 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others
  2023-05-10 22:33 [9fans] Romano
@ 2023-05-10 22:36 ` unobe
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: unobe @ 2023-05-10 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Romano <unobe@cpan.org>:
> References: <CAOw7k5hWStzajH5PmhEEyh1PFQCwiGZR7YsqB1E0+bkE9XxjRA@mail.gmail.com>
> Subject: RUDP and/or others
> 
> I know this is from a thread almost 8 years old on 9fans.
> 
> I'm ignorant of why RUDP wasn't used in lieu of TCP for 9P
> connections.  Anyone know the whys and wherefores (either technical,
> historical, or political)?  I had read earlier that TCP was used in
> lieu of IL (another transport protocol developed for Plan 9) due to
> performance over long-distance connections.  Did RUDP just not cut it
> in some other way for the needs of sending/receiving 9P messages?
> From the description in ip(3), it seems to have the nice behavior of
> resuming communication when a machine reboots.  Is it due to the
> middle boxes/firewalls that are present in present-day networks?
> 

Apparently a new line snuck in to my headers!


------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2023-05-10 22:36 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-10-18 22:43 [9fans] RUDP and/or others Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-18 22:48 ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-19  0:05   ` erik quanstrom
2015-10-18 23:15 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2015-10-18 23:59   ` erik quanstrom
2015-10-19  0:09     ` Kurt H Maier
2015-10-19  0:35       ` erik quanstrom
2015-10-19  0:48         ` Kurt H Maier
2015-10-19  9:28           ` hiro
2015-10-19 20:42             ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-19 19:36     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-19 20:53       ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-19 19:31   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-19 20:57     ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2015-10-19 21:17     ` Charles Forsyth
2015-10-19  9:14 ` Charles Forsyth
2015-10-19 19:29   ` Aleksandar Kuktin
2023-05-10 22:33 [9fans] Romano
2023-05-10 22:36 ` [9fans] RUDP and/or others unobe

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