[9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[hiro]

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>

Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.

khm

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Skip Tavakkolian]

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I think 9fans' work is done here. Time to move on to other things :)

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 4:59 PM Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
> >
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
> >
>
> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
>
> khm
>
>

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Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Jeremy O'Brien]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019, at 19:48, hiro wrote:
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>
>

oh man. a coworker of mine was just poking fun at me last week asking when Windows was gonna get a Plan9 subsystem. definitely showing him this.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Lucio De Re]

On 2/16/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
>> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>>
>
> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
>
I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Steve Simon]

interesting...

the first thing, can you convince the 9p server to offer 9p over tcp? then, can explorer mount my plan9 file server?

the biggest surprised is that i don't recognise any of the names of the team listed as 9fans of old.

-Steve

>> On 16 Feb 2019, at 3:57 am, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2/16/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
>>> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>> 
>> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
>> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
> I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
> namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.
> 
> Lucio.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Lucio De Re]

Closet 9 Fans, outed!

Pity, really, because these may be reluctant to reveal how to access a
remote 9P site. But exciting, nevertheless.

The weird thing I don't quite get is that it looks like u9fs running
under WX with an extX interface. Is that going to be the trend? What
are the permissible permutations?

Lucio.


On 2/16/19, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> interesting...
>
> the first thing, can you convince the 9p server to offer 9p over tcp? then,
> can explorer mount my plan9 file server?
>
> the biggest surprised is that i don't recognise any of the names of the team
> listed as 9fans of old.
>
> -Steve
>
>>> On 16 Feb 2019, at 3:57 am, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/16/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
>>>> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>>>
>>> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
>>> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
>> I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
>> namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.
>>
>> Lucio.
>
>
>


--
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
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Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[hiro]

> I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
> namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.
>
> Lucio.
>
>

what is a process-level namespace? you mean pid namespaces that linux has?

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Skip Tavakkolian]

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from the description it sounds like Windows and WSL apps can only talk over
AF_UNIX socket.

if I understand your intent correctly, this might be what you're looking
for: a while back Tim Newsham did ninefs; it uses npfs (ericvh and lionkov)
and Dokan. i don't know if there has been any recent development. I forked
a copy of ninefs from code.google.com into github, npfs sources are on
sourceforge:

https://github.com/9nut/ninefs
https://sourceforge.net/p/npfs/code/HEAD/tree/npfs/

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 12:54 AM Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

> interesting...
>
> the first thing, can you convince the 9p server to offer 9p over tcp?
> then, can explorer mount my plan9 file server?
>
> the biggest surprised is that i don't recognise any of the names of the
> team listed as 9fans of old.
>
> -Steve
>
> >> On 16 Feb 2019, at 3:57 am, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2/16/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
> >>>
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
> >>
> >> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
> >> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
> > I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
> > namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.
> >
> > Lucio.
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Lucio De Re]

Hell, I wish I could figure out what I want!

I need to use Thunderbird as my mailer and that keeps reminding me how
liberating it was some long time back when I was able to move from
Mutt to Acme/Mail: the latter is so much less of a burden across so
many aspects. But today I'd have to change job to get rid of
Thunderbird and that's not going to happen.

Then, there's GIT. Another annoying must-have. I really have to look
into "gitfs" and dedicate daily time to create a Plan 9 compatible
(that means Go, in my life, incidentally) VCS that is not a
monstrosity. I doubt there's much hope to get that right.

To close, there's Chrome. I can't for the hell of me understand how no
one has declared the browser a health (mental and social) hazard. It's
worse than DDT, by far.

So, that's just a few places where I expect that a concerted effort
from a willing community could put Plan 9 to great use. But of course
contributions from bright minorities have been identified as contrary
to the interests of the powerful elites and the bar set far too high
to be overcome; specifically, not necessarily consciously, to prevent
disruptive technologies taking hold. I can't reconcile myself to the
idea that this may be for the best.

And then Microsoft comes along and hi-jacks just enough of my
favourite security blanket to make me feel discriminated against.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Lucio De Re]

On 2/16/19, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> what is a process-level namespace? you mean pid namespaces that linux has?
>
Thankfully, it's been a long time since I had to look under Linux's
hood. It is perfectly possible that Linux is more plan 9-ish than Plan
9 ever was.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Charles Forsyth]

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well spotted

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 00:48, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>
>

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Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Charles Forsyth]

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I thought I remembered the name Brian Perkins until I realised that was a
Radio 4 newsreader.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 08:54, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

> interesting...
>
> the first thing, can you convince the 9p server to offer 9p over tcp?
> then, can explorer mount my plan9 file server?
>
> the biggest surprised is that i don't recognise any of the names of the
> team listed as 9fans of old.
>
> -Steve
>
> >> On 16 Feb 2019, at 3:57 am, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2/16/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
> >>>
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
> >>
> >> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
> >> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
> > I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
> > namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.
> >
> > Lucio.
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[hiro]

> Thankfully, it's been a long time since I had to look under Linux's
> hood. It is perfectly possible that Linux is more plan 9-ish than Plan
> 9 ever was.
>
> Lucio.

hardly. whatever namespace features they have come with huge cost,
because nothing in linux is ever loosely coupled like our file servers
(that can even be userspace).
complexity is going up, every module needs to be extended with
namespace features, often in a rush by people that have never touched
that module before (and possibly don't care much about it either)

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Ethan Gardener]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, at 12:49 AM, hiro wrote:
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/

I got excited for a moment, but then I saw, "This server contains protocols that support Linux metadata, including permissions."  It's going to be 9p2000.L or yet another incompatible fork of the protocol.

I'm still annoyed with Microsoft for not publishing an interface for network filesystem drivers; it makes it hard to have a reliable Windows AFS client which otherwise would be ideal for my mobile usage plans.  The only option for Windows 10 seems to be an AFS-SMB bridge, but the OpenAFS website complains of breakage due to Microsoft moving SMB's bugs around.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Lucio De Re]

On 2/17/19, Ethan Gardener <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> I got excited for a moment, but then I saw, "This server contains protocols
> that support Linux metadata, including permissions."  It's going to be
> 9p2000.L or yet another incompatible fork of the protocol.
>
It's still an improvement over any predecessor, don't knock it! <grin>

> I'm still annoyed with Microsoft for not publishing an interface for network
> filesystem drivers;

Now, there's a waste of emotions :-). Those leopard spots - in this
case a corporate culture, with the emphasis on "culture", not
"corporate" - will be hard to shift, ever unlikely to change.

But there are signs of osmosis, maybe the colour will change.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

Ethan Gardener writes:

> I got excited for a moment, but then I saw, "This server contains
> protocols that support Linux metadata, including permissions."  It's
> going to be 9p2000.L or yet another incompatible fork of the protocol.

Is Upspin an alternative?  (Not helpful if you're required to talk to
specific AFS infrastructure.)

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[hiro]

i would love to see more upspin related news :)
is there a good storage backend for it now?

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Ethan Gardener]

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019, at 9:11 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> Is Upspin an alternative?  (Not helpful if you're required to talk to
> specific AFS infrastructure.)

For my use, I may as well use SMB over a VPN.  AFS has just the right sort of caching to minimize mobile data usage without messing up.  Upspin advertises a ton of features irelevant to me.

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Ethan Gardener]

Oh lol... you know Upspin isn't designed to work with Windows Android or iOS when you see how permissions are granted:  a file called Access with no extension.  This is all right if you do everything from the command line, but it's not exactly the ease and flexibility they claim to be going for.  Maybe there's an Upspin app you're supposed to do everything with, and ditto!

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[hiro]

upspin seems to be mostly a global naming, fine-grained (not just
groups) authorization, addressing and indexing system.

conceptionally it doesn't require the use of CLI tools, though
(unknown to me) it might be the first implementations are centered
around that.

i think the problems it attempts to solve are very real, and i'd like
to find out more.

i haven't seen how to have it represented on an easily accessible
(conventionally) global file hierarchy on plan9 (and then, trivially
on other systems by exposing it via cifs for example).

On 2/20/19, Ethan Gardener <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Oh lol... you know Upspin isn't designed to work with Windows Android or iOS
> when you see how permissions are granted:  a file called Access with no
> extension.  This is all right if you do everything from the command line,
> but it's not exactly the ease and flexibility they claim to be going for.
> Maybe there's an Upspin app you're supposed to do everything with, and
> ditto!
>
>

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Steve Simon]

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no stereotyping please.

just because he is a radio news reader it doesn't mean he can’t have good taste in operating systems in his spare time...😀


> On 16 Feb 2019, at 12:50 pm, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I thought I remembered the name Brian Perkins until I realised that was a Radio 4 newsreader.
> 
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 08:54, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>> interesting...
>> 
>> the first thing, can you convince the 9p server to offer 9p over tcp? then, can explorer mount my plan9 file server?
>> 
>> the biggest surprised is that i don't recognise any of the names of the team listed as 9fans of old.
>> 
>> -Steve
>> 
>> >> On 16 Feb 2019, at 3:57 am, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> On 2/16/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>> >>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
>> >>> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
>> >> 
>> >> Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
>> >> virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.
>> > I wonder what the long-term plan really is, though? Process-level
>> > namespaces? If they can do that, they will leave Linux standing.
>> > 
>> > Lucio.

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