From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592A03650CE6 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:10:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 6A66BE739D6; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:10:54 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1598735454; b=TYH9vj2Bq4pVdJZHvOzjmNc9rl9jeshSVZFTGvPoFFM2BsEvFX j8rqmXC8vjXGTqERSUz2+/Vt9ytayLhJfxGMsQWmqX26+TuEoW1HwEEB2pc4uxWD 4g/yn4HLM21X4lnSp9edDii1jBsUHgPk6xh3Vc511alK95zVoTyTN1gILTMuCjp0 qI21+cKsc3J6q+B2LjKYtQSB8jWJaC07JyuiNIxWCJ1WrV69yX4YWurxh0Po3c4W N/D0RULNcbELRpZTGT7CJlCgEZxVbbCyNpqojSSAjsaZ9d57ou9I9+qZcZftzPTi 3sY/o4iCG5Tl5fhDfePhxZnPHbrpYluzLewg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=arcseal; t=1598735454; bh=1U64H/sdPtHhxoVEwf6k+billg8+D/4mb83MCKXe6Ig=; b=JQiWN0fTYxSF 6V74fAiJRFwxPYDyh5kIlEC3fFptGWL5NSVpTmwYn1i4T38TasDbUKncOS51xVHD jbKrRW6+QHPM0dUAmrCgLgs01Mx8yYC3AC97dtPQrJzJreVTyWoFYAoelOfmbdpC ElbaOaEFuv2UBepzovEquGmrRjvEONKJ/rmiu3nIPTCubmk6EWLg68sEM1fkV2k1 5SQDgAPwXqm042BZK87F2l1YgrlFiXZ5VA86mZkPSkqtm8bAexxde1tMAyQWBUD+ Rpi7D+Ix9thiGY4di1eDRe/lfhRwzvwYMCrdLOktAji/4VrJLaaoQKUS+vwrdNDn zcj5pr7wtg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC none); dkim=none (no signatures found); dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=sciops.net; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=216.126.196.60 (wopr.sciops.net); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=khm@sciops.net smtp.helo=wopr.sciops.net; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=wopr.sciops.net policy.ptr=wopr.sciops.net; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=sciops.net policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: wopr.sciops.net,bit.sciops.net); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=sciops.net policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: wopr.sciops.net,bit.sciops.net); x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC none); dkim=none (no signatures found); dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=sciops.net; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=216.126.196.60 (wopr.sciops.net); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=khm@sciops.net smtp.helo=wopr.sciops.net; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=wopr.sciops.net policy.ptr=wopr.sciops.net; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=sciops.net policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: wopr.sciops.net,bit.sciops.net); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=sciops.net policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: wopr.sciops.net,bit.sciops.net); x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudefuddgleelucdltddurdegudehrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujgesthdtredttddtvdenucfhrhhomhepmfhu rhhtucfjucforghivghruceokhhhmhesshgtihhophhsrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevjeetffevfffghffgffduieejhffgkefhfeeufeetieeigefgiefhuedtvdet leenucfkphepvdduiedruddviedrudeliedriedtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepvdduiedruddviedrudeliedriedtpdhhvghlohepfiho phhrrdhstghiohhpshdrnhgvthdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeeokhhhmhesshgtihhophhsrd hnvghtqe X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (sciops.net: 216.126.196.60 is authorized to use 'khm@sciops.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'mx' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="khm@sciops.net"; helo=wopr.sciops.net; client-ip=216.126.196.60 Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:10:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: (qmail 52533 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Aug 2020 14:10:51 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:10:51 -0700 From: Kurt H Maier To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil Message-ID: <20200829211051.GA22116@wopr> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <15987219330.b686Dfb.13471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 22a03c3e-ea3c-11ea-b1b0-bd51acb6f982 On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 01:43:49PM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote: > > On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote: > > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base? > > By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives > undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon > breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual > property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making > asset. In other words, burglary and theft. I'm with you on the topic of the ethical void rampant in a lot of SV tech companies, but this take is off the mark. SV businesses trade on convenience; it's only late-stage multinationals that attempt to leverage monopoly to remove user control. Fortunately by that stage they're poorly enough run that internal competition leads to senescense and new challengers introduce choice again. It happened to Nokia, IBM, Microsoft, and it's currently happening to Google, but all of them got to that late stage by selling stuff people wanted, not alone by being jerks. The new model is to burn venture capital to get that market control, but the same principal applies: by the time you're big enough to exert sufficient force to exploit a monopoly, you're sufficiently large that internal competition prevents you from operating efficiently. I think AT&T's sense of entitlement regarding their IP, combined with the fact that Plan 9 was never presented as a consumer-facing product (it was a research platform) had more to do with any lack of uptake. In other words, had it proved popular, the vultures would have arrived and done the same things they do on most platforms. In this case, better roosts had appeared by the time Plan 9 became something the vultures considered to be worth exploiting. I am grateful to the people who put effort into letting us have the code regardless of whatever we might imagine their motivations are. I'm glad we have access and that the access we have lets us shoot for whatever targets align with our priorities. khm