From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:39:31 +0100 From: Eris Discordia To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <21B90DF1879B646357EE1DAC@F74D39FA044AA309EAEA14B9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor Topicbox-Message-UUID: 00d47b46-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, > not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where > to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows > (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is supposed to=20 mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes: "mechanism, not=20 policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you determine its use. Russ=20 Cox knows this better; he's the one at the MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy"=20 goes as far as telling you to "not ask for a ruler" in your text editor=20 (ruler in vi :=3D a pair of numbers; column, row). > Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). > How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do > yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters > and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. > Otherwise, you found a bug. Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be a=20 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for a over a=20 decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9 doesn't even deliver. = Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove it. I don't even run Plan 9=20 anymore. Gave it up. Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by=20 [Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's=20 just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You = could generate that character even on MS-DOS. Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal. > gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this > motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555 > cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it for = you? $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555" $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/ (You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was removed when=20 mammoths roamed the Earth) Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your "motorola."=20 The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX it is much more=20 likely that you find someone who solved it before. And it is much less=20 likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way to do it." Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200 that runs = a nice tiny Linux. > Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you? Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you? The fs's are only abstraction layers. You could implement them on _any_=20 system. Given you were dour enough to do it. Writing a particular fs is a=20 problem. Plan 9 doesn't make it any more trivial. Oh, don't tell me it's=20 got 9P. 9P could be any text-based protocol. What's the difference between=20 9P-over-IP and HTTP? Or SOAP? Or XML-WS? > Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your > eyes. "Thank you." --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:30 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi=20 wrote: > On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: >>> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. >> >> A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people >> claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not >> UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah? > > No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy, > not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where > to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows > (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) > >>> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]" >> >> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one >> email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words >> "=D7=A9=D6=B8=D7=81=D7=9C=D7=95=D6=B9=D7=9D = =D7=A2=D6=B2=D7=9C=D6=B5=D7=99=D7=9B=D6=B6=D7=9D" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) = or >> "=D8=B3=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=85 =D8=B9=D9=84=DB=8C=DA=A9=D9=85" (Arabic, = Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's >> see if "the mail goes through." >> > > Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system). > How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do > yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters > and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point. > Otherwise, you found a bug. > >>> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even >>> devices >>> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file >>> from >>> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the >>> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a >>> million >>> commands or typing a thousand lines of code. >> >> The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was >> paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was >> built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem >> begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP. >> >> Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? >> Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded >> OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for >> some other livelier OS? >> >> Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy. >> > > My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P. I'm > saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc: > > gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this > motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555 > cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg > > Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you? > > As for filesystem usage, > > echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons > > Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple. > >>> If you are not like that, leave. >> >> No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. >> The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the >> thread's originator. >> > > Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your > eyes. > > On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: > >> What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there >> easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"-- >> a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If >> no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more >> widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3. > > - Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few other > projects. > - Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it? > - Goofing off: lots of free games > > The point of this all? > > Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating system. > It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just increasing (or > decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to care, fuck off. > You've done that to us already, on many occasions. > >