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From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm
To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 19:13:51 +0900	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <27f9d66f-4fe9-4c5f-b622-f11c7a231cfd@www.fastmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJSxfmKo+=8xhhvoWri=LPwtJSSzxo1WSGJBzSQcX6Px1k7=KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Starting from a false premise does not help. 9front is not a development branch of Plan 9. Plan 9 is Plan 9. 9front is 9front. 9front is an open-source fork or derivation of Plan 9.  

Trying to make 9front the new and official Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm not sure why there is a strong need for validation. 9front does not need official recognition. Let 9front be what it is. It can exist independent of the Plan 9 name. 

Sincerely,
Vester 

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, at 16:02, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> I changed the Subject line to better reflect the discussion. Please do go on.
> 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:57 PM Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 8/17/21, Keith Gibbs <k@pixelheresy.com> wrote:
> > > One Plan Nine?
> > >
> > > Sure, we have the historical version of the Bell Labs/Lucient codebase,
> > > preserved as 9legacy, but yeah we have one currently developed branch of
> > > Plan 9 called 9front. Are you proposing that to be called “Plan 9 from Bell
> > > Labs 5th edition”?
> > >
> > I bet you think I don't; you wouldn't ask, otherwise.
> >
> > > To be serious though, when has monolithic code bases ever benefited things
> > > in an Open Source community?
> >
> > You bought the "exceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel,
> > haven't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remain
> > small, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we raise the bar
> > higher and higher and shake off whatever can't stick hard enough. A
> > human natural instinct (more!, gimme more! features! bugs! anything so
> > I can have bigger, faster!) bent to the interest of elites (here in
> > Africa we know it as the Big Man Syndrome).
> >
> > > I mean the only reason would be to control who
> > > can/cannot make decisions on what goes in the stone soup.
> > Do you have incontrovertible evidence? In my caffeine-deprived state,
> > I feel you're just following the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In
> > my opinion, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the
> > masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure
> > comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the message
> > and of course they then distort it in the direction that suits them
> > best. And the masses are none the wiser, not this time, not the next
> > time, not any other time, because the elite can be swapped out
> > entirely and the new elite becomes them, ad nauseam.
> >
> > > There are multiple
> > > BSDs. There are multiple Linuxes. Using 9legacy as more than historical
> > > baseline means that we will be stuck with decisions put in place 20-30 years
> > > ago rather than iterating and moving things forward. The purpose of P9F is
> > > to “promote and support” not to regulate.
> > >
> > Sure, and an infinite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four
> > corners and seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based
> > fuels. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power
> > generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look
> > different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than there in
> > style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit idle (my estimate)
> > 95% of their life: is that what they are designed for? And the AI in
> > my phone, is that also sitting idle? I had a couple of instances
> > recently where in the middle of the night my password locked Samsung
> > J5 decided to continue reading me the SF short story collection I
> > turned off before going to sleep.
> >
> > But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under the bonned, can't I?
> >
> > Well, the P9F is what it is. It will also become what it is naturally
> > attracted to unless some boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in
> > place.
> >
> > > I would love to imagine a time when we have a resurgence of multiple Plan
> > > 9s. I would love to see Akaros and 9atom have a shot in the arm [although
> > > much of what the latter had seems to be swallowed up by 9front and 9legacy
> > > and the project dead]. I would love to see NIX get a little more traction,
> > > as it seems it is just a standalone experiment [albeit a cool one in terms
> > > of goals]. I think it would be really healthy for Jeanne and Harvey to be
> > > more closer to “family” in the community rather than third cousins. Once we
> > > have a plurality of opinions, of perspectives, of visions, then we can
> > > better broker standards and overall trajectories.
> > >
> > I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect that I
> > totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, need is not a
> > strong enough word for what I'm thinking, for creativity, but software
> > is not a primordial soup out of which complex organisms will rise to
> > take over the Universe and consume it out of existence, its and
> > theirs.
> > 
> > More likely, we'll teach - by example, not intentionally, no - our AI
> > products to weaponise the tools we are no longer sufficiently
> > naturally intelligent to understand and control (tell me there's a
> > difference) and turn us into slaves because, like the human elite,
> > they will measure their worth in what they can accumulate (human
> > slaves sounds like a neat currency to me, I could use some, it's
> > worked in all of human history - ask Epstein), just like their
> > creators did.
> > 
> > Nothing to do with Plan 9, of course, because it really is just a drop
> > of accidental sanity in an ocean of greed and competition. But, to
> > complete the imagery, I'd rather be plankton in a drop of Plan 9 than
> > a shark in the Linux Ocean. And I am, to the extent that I support and
> > most of all appreciate what makes my ecosystem continue to tick.
> > Including any contributions by like-minded or antagonistically natured
> > geniuses.
> > 
> > Lucio.
> > 
> > PS: I have a lot of time to think and unfortunately not the means to
> > study beyond a rather narrow subject matter. So my opinions are much
> > more the result of introspection than of universal knowledge. Take it
> > for what it is.
> > 
> > PPS: There is always an elite, its job is to defeat by all means
> > available a middle class whose "elite nouveau" continually attempts to
> > replace it, by any means available to it. Everything revolves around
> > who owns the masses. That's Western Civilisation in a nutshell.

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-08-18 10:15 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 62+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-08-16 11:15 [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum Demetrius Iatrakis
2021-08-17  3:48 ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-17  7:47   ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-18  3:55     ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-18  7:02       ` [9fans] Software philosophy Skip Tavakkolian
2021-08-18  7:19         ` hiro
2021-08-18 10:15           ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-18  9:46         ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-18 10:13         ` vic.thacker [this message]
2021-08-18 11:34           ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-18 11:47             ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-18 23:44             ` hiro
2021-08-19  4:34               ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-19 10:44                 ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-19 18:53                 ` Git & Conventional Browsers (Was Re: [9fans] Software philosophy) unobe
2021-08-19 19:00                   ` ori
2021-08-18 11:34           ` [9fans] Software philosophy Lucio De Re
2021-08-18 11:28         ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-18 12:02           ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-18 19:33             ` leimy2k via 9fans
2021-08-18 20:09               ` David du Colombier
2021-08-18 22:00                 ` Eli Cohen
2021-08-19  7:08                   ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-19  7:59                     ` sirjofri
2021-08-19  9:27                       ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-19  9:45                         ` hiro
2021-08-19  9:51                         ` hiro
2021-08-19 10:10                           ` sirjofri
2021-08-19 10:38                         ` Keith Gibbs
2021-08-19 11:45                           ` hiro
2021-08-19 12:43                             ` Eli Cohen
2021-08-19 19:58                               ` Aram Hăvărneanu
2021-08-19 10:56                         ` kvik
2021-08-19 11:33                           ` sirjofri
2021-08-19 20:44                           ` ori
2021-08-19  9:29                       ` hiro
2021-08-19  9:44                         ` sirjofri
2021-08-19  9:19                     ` hiro
2021-08-22  2:46                   ` kokamoto
2021-08-22  3:16                     ` Eli Cohen
2021-08-22  7:07                       ` [9fans] Drawterm GPU (was: Software philosophy) sirjofri
2021-08-22 10:04                         ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
2021-08-22 11:49                           ` sirjofri
2021-08-22 12:24                             ` Chris McGee
2021-08-18  9:18       ` [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum Keith Gibbs
2021-08-18 12:10         ` Ethan Gardener
2021-08-18 15:23         ` Stuart Morrow
2021-08-18 16:58           ` Stuart Morrow
2021-08-18 17:06             ` Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir
2021-08-17 15:25   ` ori
2021-08-18  3:59     ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-18  4:20       ` ori
2021-08-18  4:42         ` Eli Cohen
2021-08-18  5:06         ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-17  4:13 ` ori
2021-08-17  5:43   ` Lucio De Re
2021-08-19  3:52 ` Kurt H Maier
2021-08-19  5:38 ` ori
2021-08-22 20:16 ` ori
2021-08-22 20:32   ` Demetrius Iatrakis
2021-08-22 20:38     ` ori
2021-08-22 20:36   ` ori

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