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Wed, 18 Aug 2021 06:15:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1118-g75eff666e5-fm-20210816.002-g75eff666 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <27f9d66f-4fe9-4c5f-b622-f11c7a231cfd@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 19:13:51 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 33272666-000d-11ec-80bc-c563beb1c8cb Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NMGFiMGI0ZGExZWY0YTZhMjJhOGRh?= =?UTF-8?B?YmQ1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0ab0b4da1ef4a6a22a8dabd5:1:nnCvjZJXFJyyAuTXmXH_Hx4CbvxPNYGoeB-rC9Bipgs Starting from a false premise does not help. 9front is not a development br= anch of Plan 9. Plan 9 is Plan 9. 9front is 9front. 9front is an open-sourc= e fork or derivation of Plan 9.=20=20 Trying to make 9front the new and official Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm not= sure why there is a strong need for validation. 9front does not need offic= ial recognition. Let 9front be what it is. It can exist independent of the = Plan 9 name.=20 Sincerely, Vester=20 On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, at 16:02, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > I changed the Subject line to better reflect the discussion. Please do go= on. >=20 > On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:57 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > > > > On 8/17/21, Keith Gibbs wrote: > > > One Plan Nine? > > > > > > Sure, we have the historical version of the Bell Labs/Lucient codebas= e, > > > preserved as 9legacy, but yeah we have one currently developed branch= of > > > Plan 9 called 9front. Are you proposing that to be called =E2=80=9CPl= an 9 from Bell > > > Labs 5th edition=E2=80=9D? > > > > > I bet you think I don't; you wouldn't ask, otherwise. > > > > > To be serious though, when has monolithic code bases ever benefited t= hings > > > in an Open Source community? > > > > You bought the "exceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel, > > haven't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remain > > small, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we raise the bar > > higher and higher and shake off whatever can't stick hard enough. A > > human natural instinct (more!, gimme more! features! bugs! anything so > > I can have bigger, faster!) bent to the interest of elites (here in > > Africa we know it as the Big Man Syndrome). > > > > > I mean the only reason would be to control who > > > can/cannot make decisions on what goes in the stone soup. > > Do you have incontrovertible evidence? In my caffeine-deprived state, > > I feel you're just following the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In > > my opinion, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the > > masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure > > comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the message > > and of course they then distort it in the direction that suits them > > best. And the masses are none the wiser, not this time, not the next > > time, not any other time, because the elite can be swapped out > > entirely and the new elite becomes them, ad nauseam. > > > > > There are multiple > > > BSDs. There are multiple Linuxes. Using 9legacy as more than historic= al > > > baseline means that we will be stuck with decisions put in place 20-3= 0 years > > > ago rather than iterating and moving things forward. The purpose of P= 9F is > > > to =E2=80=9Cpromote and support=E2=80=9D not to regulate. > > > > > Sure, and an infinite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four > > corners and seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based > > fuels. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power > > generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look > > different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than there in > > style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit idle (my estimate) > > 95% of their life: is that what they are designed for? And the AI in > > my phone, is that also sitting idle? I had a couple of instances > > recently where in the middle of the night my password locked Samsung > > J5 decided to continue reading me the SF short story collection I > > turned off before going to sleep. > > > > But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under the bonned, can'= t I? > > > > Well, the P9F is what it is. It will also become what it is naturally > > attracted to unless some boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in > > place. > > > > > I would love to imagine a time when we have a resurgence of multiple = Plan > > > 9s. I would love to see Akaros and 9atom have a shot in the arm [alth= ough > > > much of what the latter had seems to be swallowed up by 9front and 9l= egacy > > > and the project dead]. I would love to see NIX get a little more trac= tion, > > > as it seems it is just a standalone experiment [albeit a cool one in = terms > > > of goals]. I think it would be really healthy for Jeanne and Harvey t= o be > > > more closer to =E2=80=9Cfamily=E2=80=9D in the community rather than = third cousins. Once we > > > have a plurality of opinions, of perspectives, of visions, then we can > > > better broker standards and overall trajectories. > > > > > I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect that I > > totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, need is not a > > strong enough word for what I'm thinking, for creativity, but software > > is not a primordial soup out of which complex organisms will rise to > > take over the Universe and consume it out of existence, its and > > theirs. > >=20 > > More likely, we'll teach - by example, not intentionally, no - our AI > > products to weaponise the tools we are no longer sufficiently > > naturally intelligent to understand and control (tell me there's a > > difference) and turn us into slaves because, like the human elite, > > they will measure their worth in what they can accumulate (human > > slaves sounds like a neat currency to me, I could use some, it's > > worked in all of human history - ask Epstein), just like their > > creators did. > >=20 > > Nothing to do with Plan 9, of course, because it really is just a drop > > of accidental sanity in an ocean of greed and competition. But, to > > complete the imagery, I'd rather be plankton in a drop of Plan 9 than > > a shark in the Linux Ocean. And I am, to the extent that I support and > > most of all appreciate what makes my ecosystem continue to tick. > > Including any contributions by like-minded or antagonistically natured > > geniuses. > >=20 > > Lucio. > >=20 > > PS: I have a lot of time to think and unfortunately not the means to > > study beyond a rather narrow subject matter. So my opinions are much > > more the result of introspection than of universal knowledge. Take it > > for what it is. > >=20 > > PPS: There is always an elite, its job is to defeat by all means > > available a middle class whose "elite nouveau" continually attempts to > > replace it, by any means available to it. Everything revolves around > > who owns the masses. That's Western Civilisation in a nutshell. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M0ab0b= 4da1ef4a6a22a8dabd5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription