[9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[dpe]

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In a discussion <https://genode.discourse.group/t/swift-and-other-programming-languages/90> on the Genode forum, a fellow member recommended a new programming language called V (vlang.io). As a distant observer of 9Front, I noted that V sounded very much in their wheelhouse, given its enthusiasm for Go and "language ideas <http://wiki.9front.org/language-ideas>" page in their wiki:

> My initial thought is that it might be the language that 9Front (fork of Plan 9) are looking for. Go was written by former employees of Bell labs, is seen by much of the Plan 9 community as building upon that tradition, and V positions itself as a better Go. It also compiles to C (used by Plan 9) rather than C++ (used by, say, Genode and Haiku).

I am  curious as to whether this language has made a splash within the Plan 9 community, and discuss any projects that might be using it.
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Noam Preil]

V is a scam.

- Noam Preil

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Don A. Bailey]

Why? (Not being flip. This is the first I’ve heard of it and I’d like your thoughts.)

D

> On Oct 2, 2024, at 3:31 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
> 
> V is a scam.
> 
> - Noam Preil

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Willow Liquorice]

I did a bit of digging around on the internet about this after Noam's 
email, because it piqued my curiosity. I'd always dismissed V as 
basically being Zig, but without any of Zig's evolutionary ideas about 
memory management and comptime execution.

When V was a young project, the lead dev made a lot of wild claims about 
its capabilities and performance that turned out to be misleading or 
nonsensical, while it was a closed-source project.[1]_[2]_[3]_

The project's credibility was, AFAICT, irreparably damaged in its 
infancy. The cited pages (and the links therein) could serve as a 
foundation for a personal judgement on the matter.

        - Willow

.. [1] https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35
.. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39492680
.. [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35550803

On 02/10/2024 20:39, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> Why? (Not being flip. This is the first I’ve heard of it and I’d like your thoughts.)
> 
> D
> 
>> On Oct 2, 2024, at 3:31 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>>
>> V is a scam.
>>
>> - Noam Preil

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Bakul Shah via 9fans]

In spite of this early drama it seems to be coming along fine. It feels more like go but with some different choices. Compiles itself in seconds (tcc or system c compiler as backend). I’ve written small programs in it and like it so far. It supports *BSD, linux, macos, windows, etc. but not plan9. Some folks are writing vinix, a linux like os in it + reimplementing a lot of unix programs in v.

Play with it and see what you think. Will it survive long term? Who knows but I enjoy playing with it! Toys don’t have to last forever:-)

> On Oct 2, 2024, at 1:18 PM, Willow Liquorice <willow@howhill.com> wrote:
> 
> I did a bit of digging around on the internet about this after Noam's email, because it piqued my curiosity. I'd always dismissed V as basically being Zig, but without any of Zig's evolutionary ideas about memory management and comptime execution.
> 
> When V was a young project, the lead dev made a lot of wild claims about its capabilities and performance that turned out to be misleading or nonsensical, while it was a closed-source project.[1]_[2]_[3]_
> 
> The project's credibility was, AFAICT, irreparably damaged in its infancy. The cited pages (and the links therein) could serve as a foundation for a personal judgement on the matter.
> 
>       - Willow
> 
> .. [1] https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/35
> .. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39492680
> .. [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35550803
> 
>> On 02/10/2024 20:39, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> Why? (Not being flip. This is the first I’ve heard of it and I’d like your thoughts.)
>> D
>>>> On Oct 2, 2024, at 3:31 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>>> 
>>> V is a scam.
>>> 
>>> - Noam Preil

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[dpe]

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I am confused by the divisive views on V. On one hand people who seem to know their onions speak well of it. @Willow provides helpful reasons why the project might have started inauspiciously, whereas by contrast @Noam I feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence. Perhaps for a fledgeling language all publicity is good publicity? Certainly I would expect a "controversies" section on the wikipedia page if it was that toxic as some seem to think.

As for "vibes", I think @Kurmakes an interesting point on the importance of emotional factors. There seems to be an appetite for a new language within Plan 9 as evidenced by the wiki page linked in OP. HarveyOS jumped first (with Rust), but whilst rewriting everything in rust is trendy (has the right vibes), r9 hardly set the world on fire. The adoption of Rust in projects such as Linux may well be driven by emotion, and in a bloated codebase like Linux it seems to have been a failure. Could the experience of r9 - despite the vastly more manageable code base of Plan 9 - suggest it is not the language for Plan9's future?
 
Looking beyond Rust, could languages like Zig (good call, @Willow) and maybe V be better candidates?
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Willow Liquorice]

I must admit that my rather non-committal email on V is largely down to 
my low appetite for years-old programming language drama. Wikipedia is 
also far from comprehensive.

Nothing is quite there yet as a "new language" for Plan 9. Rust is *too* 
abstract and is quite baroque (see: custom allocators, the saga of const 
generics, async function colouring), and leans on LLVM (which is its own 
C++-shaped can of worms).

Of the languages already available, I think Zig is the closest to the 
spirit of `Language Ideas`_, but LLVM libraries and tooling are still 
needed for its full feature set (including its big selling point: 
importing C code),[1]_ and it leans more towards the imperative than the 
functional. D is horrendously mismanaged. Nim and V are really just Zig, 
but worse.

There also a reluctance (from at least one 9front dev) to vendor Zig, 
because it's an external project with its own dependencies. Presumably 
similar reluctance would apply to other languages. Still, I expect 
vendoring Zig will get easier, as I shall explain.

Moving away from LLVM is `one of the core team's projects`_ at the 
moment, and I want to try integrating the Plan 9 toolchain with Zig's C 
backend (unless that has been tried already). Once `this issue`_ is 
closed, and provided the C backend behaves, I think the desirable 
missing features could be implemented by getting the Zig build system to 
use the native C toolchain.

As for release-mode optimisations, one of the core devs has `a 
broad-strokes idea`_ for a new compiler backend, which has a basis in 
recent CS research. I don't know whether that particular piece of 
vapourware will condense, but I suspect its IR would be expressive 
enough to do borrow checking as an analysis pass, which could 
universalise Rust's unique safety features.

This is my opinion on new programming languages for Plan 9.

        - Willow


.. _Language Ideas: https://wiki.9front.org/language-ideas
.. _one of the core team's projects: 
https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/16270
.. _this issue: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/20630
.. _a broad-strokes idea: https://github.com/vezel-dev/graf

.. [1] 
https://github.com/ziglang/zig?tab=readme-ov-file#building-from-source-without-llvm

On 03/10/2024 21:24, dpe@squizzler.co.uk wrote:
> I am confused by the divisive views on V. On one hand people who seem to 
> know their onions speak well of it. @Willow provides helpful reasons why 
> the project might have started inauspiciously, whereas by contrast @Noam 
> I feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence. Perhaps for a 
> fledgeling language all publicity is good publicity? Certainly I would 
> expect a "controversies" section on the wikipedia page if it was that 
> toxic as some seem to think.
> 
> As for "vibes", I think @Kurmakes an interesting point on the importance 
> of emotional factors. There seems to be an appetite for a new language 
> within Plan 9 as evidenced by the wiki page linked in OP. HarveyOS 
> jumped first (with Rust), but whilst rewriting everything in rust is 
> trendy (has the right vibes), r9 hardly set the world on fire. The 
> adoption of Rust in projects such as Linux may well be driven by 
> emotion, and in a bloated codebase like Linux it seems to have been a 
> failure. Could the experience of r9 - despite the vastly more manageable 
> code base of Plan 9 - suggest it is not the language for Plan9's future?
> 
> Looking beyond Rust, could languages like Zig (good call, @Willow) and 
> maybe V be better candidates?
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

I agree with Willow. Zig would make an excellent addition to Plan 9. If it were available, I'd certainly adopt it. I suspect it would also draw in a new crowd, bringing fresh perspectives to the community.

- Vic

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[ori]

https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/

Quoth vester.thacker@fastmail.fm:
> I agree with Willow. Zig would make an excellent addition to Plan 9. If it were available, I'd certainly adopt it. I suspect it would also draw in a new crowd, bringing fresh perspectives to the community.
> 
> - Vic

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

On Fri, Oct 4, 2024, at 11:25, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/

Thank you. This looks promising, however two things have changed since the time that was written.

1.  std.Build has been renamed to std.build.Builder, which reflects Zig's ongoing development and refactor of the build system.

2. The .installArtifact(exe) function has been replaced with the cleaner exe.install() method, streamlining the build script and ensuring the executable gets installed in the appropriate location.

I'll submit a patch.

- Vic

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Thaddeus Woskowiak]

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Be confused no more: https://n-skvortsov-1997.github.io/reviews/

I found that link after a single search for 'v programming language
controversy' using duck duck go. It was linked from a hacker news post.
There are other resources. The controversy has made the rounds on numerous
tech news sites and forums so it's well known to many. If it delivers it
sounds interesting.


Zig is bootstrapped using c++ so there's no way to natively bootstrap Zig
on 9. Though there was someone on the 9fans discord (that channel is not
affiliated with this mailing list) was working on a native bootstrap for 9.
Though I'm not sure what happened to that project.


There's also Nim. Kinda like a Python that compiles to C or other languages
like JavaScript. Might be the easy to port.


Rust is eh. It looks like line noise and just as ugly as c++. Haven't
really used it but played with it years ago. Wasn't interested in it and
still not interested in it now. Seems very hype driven like the 90's oop
craze. Nothing against r9 but what's the point of it when plan 9 already
boots and does what I need? I'm not drawn to an OS because of the language
it's written in. I'm drawn in by the concepts of the OS. The language
should make programming easier in the sense that you can translate the
program structure in your head into code on the screen and vice versa. I'm
not sure rust accomplishes that from what I've seen.


Go is nice. Feels like it should have come out of bell Labs in the 90's.
Though, I'm not crazy about languages as ecosystems. It makes them big to
the point where building Go is a benchmark for CPU and disk IO on plan 9.
That's too big for my liking. It's also hard to keep the plan 9 port going
and some feel that it should go away :-(. Go feels like it could be a lot
smaller.


Seems like Erlang could be ported. Interesting language with a neat
concurrency concept. Distributed language on a distributed OS. Use 9p to
distribute data and Erlang to distribute compute performed on said data.
Distributed all the way down.


Another thing to mention is to look at the qbe compiler backend:
https://c9x.me/compile/ I've heard it suggested that this along with cproc
could be an interesting light weight alternative toolchain for plan 9. It
is also the back end to the Hare language, and Ori's Myrddin. Why should
GCC and clang/llvm be the only games in town?

On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 4:25 PM <dpe@squizzler.co.uk> wrote:

> I am confused by the divisive views on V. On one hand people who seem to
> know their onions speak well of it. @Willow provides helpful reasons why
> the project might have started inauspiciously, whereas by contrast @Noam I
> feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence. Perhaps for a fledgeling
> language all publicity is good publicity? Certainly I would expect a
> "controversies" section on the wikipedia page if it was that toxic as some
> seem to think.
>
> As for "vibes", I think @Kurmakes an interesting point on the importance
> of emotional factors. There seems to be an appetite for a new language
> within Plan 9 as evidenced by the wiki page linked in OP. HarveyOS jumped
> first (with Rust), but whilst rewriting everything in rust is trendy (has
> the right vibes), r9 hardly set the world on fire. The adoption of Rust in
> projects such as Linux may well be driven by emotion, and in a bloated
> codebase like Linux it seems to have been a failure. Could the experience
> of r9 - despite the vastly more manageable code base of Plan 9 - suggest it
> is not the language for Plan9's future?
>
> Looking beyond Rust, could languages like Zig (good call, @Willow) and
> maybe V be better candidates?
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Willow Liquorice]

I believe you're misinformed about bootstrapping Zig. The link to the 
Zig README in my previous email is to the section that describes how to 
bootstrap Zig *using only a C compiler*. For more details, refer to my 
previous email.

The most annoying thing about Zig, potentially, is the "package manager" 
in its build system, a component that may well be conceptually redundant 
in Plan 9, where processes can have completely different namespaces. I 
have a strong suspicion that the build system itself is redundant for 
similar reasons.

Regarding Nim (and I concede this is only based on a cursory look): it 
doesn't seem to give you as fine a control over memory management as Zig 
does. That's why I lumped it in with V as "Zig but worse".

        - Willow

On 04/10/2024 03:12, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:
> Be confused no more: https://n-skvortsov-1997.github.io/reviews/ 
> <https://n-skvortsov-1997.github.io/reviews/>
> 
> I found that link after a single search for 'v programming language 
> controversy' using duck duck go. It was linked from a hacker news post. 
> There are other resources. The controversy has made the rounds on 
> numerous tech news sites and forums so it's well known to many. If it 
> delivers it sounds interesting.
> 
> 
> Zig is bootstrapped using c++ so there's no way to natively bootstrap 
> Zig on 9. Though there was someone on the 9fans discord (that channel is 
> not affiliated with this mailing list) was working on a native bootstrap 
> for 9. Though I'm not sure what happened to that project.
> 
> 
> There's also Nim. Kinda like a Python that compiles to C or other 
> languages like JavaScript. Might be the easy to port.
> 
> 
> Rust is eh. It looks like line noise and just as ugly as c++. Haven't 
> really used it but played with it years ago. Wasn't interested in it and 
> still not interested in it now. Seems very hype driven like the 90's oop 
> craze. Nothing against r9 but what's the point of it when plan 9 already 
> boots and does what I need? I'm not drawn to an OS because of the 
> language it's written in. I'm drawn in by the concepts of the OS. The 
> language should make programming easier in the sense that you can 
> translate the program structure in your head into code on the screen and 
> vice versa. I'm not sure rust accomplishes that from what I've seen.
> 
> 
> Go is nice. Feels like it should have come out of bell Labs in the 90's. 
> Though, I'm not crazy about languages as ecosystems. It makes them big 
> to the point where building Go is a benchmark for CPU and disk IO on 
> plan 9. That's too big for my liking. It's also hard to keep the plan 9 
> port going and some feel that it should go away :-(. Go feels like it 
> could be a lot smaller.
> 
> 
> Seems like Erlang could be ported. Interesting language with a neat 
> concurrency concept. Distributed language on a distributed OS. Use 9p to 
> distribute data and Erlang to distribute compute performed on said data. 
> Distributed all the way down.
> 
> 
> Another thing to mention is to look at the qbe compiler backend: 
> https://c9x.me/compile/ <https://c9x.me/compile/> I've heard it 
> suggested that this along with cproc could be an interesting light 
> weight alternative toolchain for plan 9. It is also the back end to the 
> Hare language, and Ori's Myrddin. Why should GCC and clang/llvm be the 
> only games in town?
> 
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, 4:25 PM <dpe@squizzler.co.uk 
> <mailto:dpe@squizzler.co.uk>> wrote:
> 
>     __
>     I am confused by the divisive views on V. On one hand people who
>     seem to know their onions speak well of it. @Willow provides helpful
>     reasons why the project might have started inauspiciously, whereas
>     by contrast @Noam I feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence.
>     Perhaps for a fledgeling language all publicity is good publicity?
>     Certainly I would expect a "controversies" section on the wikipedia
>     page if it was that toxic as some seem to think.
> 
>     As for "vibes", I think @Kurmakes an interesting point on the
>     importance of emotional factors. There seems to be an appetite for a
>     new language within Plan 9 as evidenced by the wiki page linked in
>     OP. HarveyOS jumped first (with Rust), but whilst rewriting
>     everything in rust is trendy (has the right vibes), r9 hardly set
>     the world on fire. The adoption of Rust in projects such as Linux
>     may well be driven by emotion, and in a bloated codebase like Linux
>     it seems to have been a failure. Could the experience of r9 -
>     despite the vastly more manageable code base of Plan 9 - suggest it
>     is not the language for Plan9's future?
> 
>     Looking beyond Rust, could languages like Zig (good call, @Willow)
>     and maybe V be better candidates?
> 
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Emery Hemingway]

Excerpts from Thaddeus Woskowiak's message of October 4, 2024 3:12 am:
> There's also Nim. Kinda like a Python that compiles to C or other languages
> like JavaScript. Might be the easy to port.

Nim is easy to port but to get the stock memory management to work
it needs a C99 compiler, which is not available for 9front.

I've already ported and tested some of the standard library.
https://github.com/ehmry/Nim/commits/plan9/

Nim only looks like Python. It's actually something like a Pascal.

E.

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Willow Liquorice]

It depends on which bits of C99 it needs, see /sys/src/cmd/cc/c99 in any 
9front distribution for an example.

I can't speak for any maintainers, but if there's any C99 thing that Nim 
needs that the C compilers lack: "patches welcome" IMO.

        - Willow

On 04/10/2024 17:54, Emery Hemingway wrote:
> Excerpts from Thaddeus Woskowiak's message of October 4, 2024 3:12 am:
>> There's also Nim. Kinda like a Python that compiles to C or other languages
>> like JavaScript. Might be the easy to port.
> 
> Nim is easy to port but to get the stock memory management to work
> it needs a C99 compiler, which is not available for 9front.
> 
> I've already ported and tested some of the standard library.
> https://github.com/ehmry/Nim/commits/plan9/
> 
> Nim only looks like Python. It's actually something like a Pascal.
> 
> E.

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r9 etc (Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Bakul Shah via 9fans]

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On Oct 3, 2024, at 7:12 PM, Thaddeus Woskowiak <tswoskowiak@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Nothing against r9 but what's the point of it when plan 9 already boots and does what I need? I'm not drawn to an OS because of the language it's written in. I'm drawn in by the concepts of the OS.


A rewrite is a great way to really learn how something is put together -- what is easy, what is hard, what is tricky etc -- and then try to extend it. Plan9 is small enough that this seems quite feasible.

Though, the plan9 experiment is now over 35 years old. I wish any rewrite (of a rewrite) would consider how the computing culture has changed since then and try to address today's challenges somehow. And also consider what has not worked well in Plan9 and try to remedy that. [Notwithstanding Pike's paper on "System Software Research is Dead". Such research may be dead but we still don't have better systems]
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Re: r9 etc (Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Stuart Morrow]

On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 at 05:46, Bakul Shah via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> Though, the plan9 experiment is now over 35 years old. I wish any rewrite (of a rewrite) would consider how the computing culture has changed since then and try to address today's challenges somehow. And also consider what has not worked well in Plan9 and try to remedy that. [Notwithstanding Pike's paper on "System Software Research is Dead". Such research may be dead but we still don't have better systems]

I think people missed the Clive structured streams paper. They saw
that someone did a supposedly Plan 9-inspired OS in Go, and thought
they already knew everything there is to know about it, so why read
it.

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Noam Preil]

>  @Noam I feel you cast vague aspersions without evidence

Hence why I mentioned that there's evidence trivially available if you
look ;)

pretty sure someon already shared some of the articles in here.

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Kim Shrier]

I’ve played with the V language and I like it.  I also was able
to run into problems almost immediately.  However since the
language was easy for me to read and write, and I like the
principles that it espouses, I chose to help the project out
instead of criticizing its shortcomings.  I have submitted
many fixes.  It should be obvious to any developer who
has experience that the language is in an early stage of
development.  I’m sure the over-selling of the language
and compiler did nothing to help its reputation but I do see
it coming along and getting closer to its claims.  It is still
not there yet.

I tried for about a year to like Zig but the language never
resonated with me.  When I look at the source code in a
high level language, I like to have at least a reasonable
idea of the generated machine code.  I don’t get that
with Zig.  So, I quit playing with it about 2 years ago.

For those who don’t like V or just flat out hate it, well,
no one is forcing you to use it.

Kim
_
C++ is an off-by-one error





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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Noam Preil]

They've made ridiculous, obviously-false claims. You can look it up
fairly easily if you want, I recall articles titled "V is for Vaporware"
and the like from a few years back.

the very short explanation: they have had outright lies on their website
since, IIRC, 2018.

They have still not fixed them. They, at one point, marked features they
_claimed to already have as WIP_, and said "They'll be in the next
release."

Most of those still don't exist.


There's a lot more but my time is valuable :)



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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

I look forward to end of the "what C needs is more bureaucracy" era of
programming language design.

I note that the linked discussion starts out with someone stating a
concrete goal which would justify porting a language to a platform, and
the following recommendation of V is primarily vibe-based.  In my
experience, people run out of motivation to support the latter, and the
port decays and dies.

khm

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

ThePrimeagen has put together a couple of solid videos on Vlang, blending entertainment with valuable insights.

1. In this reaction video, he dives into Vlang with his signature mix of humor and curiosity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j47Hk5qE9As&list=PL6Vr-1-zVu5CUQOoZa-3BYYbYJ1CGlpRH

For a quicker intro without the reaction content, the "Code to the Moon" segment offers a sharp overview.
https://shorturl.at/umy15

2. In another video, ThePrimeagen critics a Vlang article, humorously titled: "Vlang or: How I learned even open-source communities can operate like fascist regimes."  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUv13In9RP4

Even if you're not keen on the details, you'll still be entertained. ThePrimeagen's videos always deliver a mix of sharp commentary and humor. Whether you're a fan of Vlang or not, it's always helpful to have solid reasons backing your stance. ThePrimeagen's videos provide insights that can inform your opinion—whether you end up agreeing with him or not.

- Vic

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Willow Liquorice]

This just in from #cat-v on oftc.net:

| <khm> lot of fucking armchair systems engineers on 9fans these days
| <qeed_> the old dont get better, they just atrophy past their peaks
| <sigrid> it's definitely a lot of opinions. all of them don't matter
| <khm> I don't know why I posted politely instead of just saing "if any
| of you assholes believed anything you are saying you would have done
| something by now"
| <sigrid> I propose we instead make xerox' Mesa native to 9front
| <sigrid> everybody's going to hate it, which is a good thing

I agree with Sigrid, and take back everything I've said about Zig: Mesa 
is the way forward.

        - Willow

On 02/10/2024 22:45, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> I look forward to end of the "what C needs is more bureaucracy" era of
> programming language design.
> 
> I note that the linked discussion starts out with someone stating a
> concrete goal which would justify porting a language to a platform, and
> the following recommendation of V is primarily vibe-based.  In my
> experience, people run out of motivation to support the latter, and the
> port decays and dies.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

I'm relieved this mailing list focuses on Plan 9, not 9front, since I don't use 9front. I submitted two patches today—no armchair engineers around here. 

Besides ranting, move beyond it. Let it rest.

- Vic

On Fri, Oct 4, 2024, at 14:45, Willow Liquorice wrote:
> This just in from #cat-v on oftc.net:
>
> | <khm> lot of fucking armchair systems engineers on 9fans these days
> | <qeed_> the old dont get better, they just atrophy past their peaks
> | <sigrid> it's definitely a lot of opinions. all of them don't matter
> | <khm> I don't know why I posted politely instead of just saing "if any
> | of you assholes believed anything you are saying you would have done
> | something by now"
> | <sigrid> I propose we instead make xerox' Mesa native to 9front
> | <sigrid> everybody's going to hate it, which is a good thing
>
> I agree with Sigrid, and take back everything I've said about Zig: Mesa 
> is the way forward.
>
>         - Willow
>
> On 02/10/2024 22:45, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
>> I look forward to end of the "what C needs is more bureaucracy" era of
>> programming language design.
>> 
>> I note that the linked discussion starts out with someone stating a
>> concrete goal which would justify porting a language to a platform, and
>> the following recommendation of V is primarily vibe-based.  In my
>> experience, people run out of motivation to support the latter, and the
>> port decays and dies.
>> 
>> khm

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[dpe]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 594 bytes --]

I've been called many worse things in my time :)

It sounds like Zig is one to watch. I presume - I'm just an armchair engineer after all - Harvey OS would have similar challenges with Rust in relation to R9. If so, their experience would be instructive for a hypothetical "Z9"(although IBM may have something to say about that name!), and not be wasted after all.
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, Oct 04, 2024 at 03:51:13PM +0900, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
> I'm relieved this mailing list focuses on Plan 9, not 9front, since I don't use 9front. I submitted two patches today—no armchair engineers around here. 

I hope that you learn nobody wants your LLM output quickly enough that
more venues don't have to deal with the noise.  First you tried shitting
up this mailing list with it, and now some poor software maintainer had
to deal with it.  You're not helping anything with this slop.

"no armchair engineers" indeed.  Copying chatgpt output and pasting it
into other people's inboxes doesn't even qualify as *armchair*
engineering.  

khm

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

Listen here, some of you are puffed up and too full of yourselves. First, you tell me to strip out the comments that explain things, then come back whining that I didn’t explain enough. Who needs that kind of two-faced treatment? This is supposed to be an open-source project—a place where folks can contribute, learn, and grow, not a breeding ground for hate and backbiting.

Some of you act like you’d rather tear someone down than lend a hand. Some of you are downright nasty, plain and simple. It’s no wonder people don’t want to submit patches or share their work with you. You’re sowing the seeds of your own downfall, and the mess you’re stuck in—you built it. You deserve every bit of it. Don’t come crying when nobody’s left to clean it up for you. Go live in your self-created misery. 

Here’s a thought: maybe some of you should quit giving others such a hard time when they’re just trying to help. Ever consider that being kind and supportive might actually grow the Plan 9 community? I don’t care how self-important some of you think you are—you're not helping anyone, least of all the community. In fact, some of you are actively tearing it apart. You’re certainly destroying it for me. Whatever you’ve accomplished in the past doesn’t give you the right to treat others like trash. It’s time for you to step back and leave, because you're doing more harm than good.

- Vic



On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, at 12:06, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 04, 2024 at 03:51:13PM +0900, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> I'm relieved this mailing list focuses on Plan 9, not 9front, since I don't use 9front. I submitted two patches today—no armchair engineers around here. 
> 
> I hope that you learn nobody wants your LLM output quickly enough that
> more venues don't have to deal with the noise.  First you tried shitting
> up this mailing list with it, and now some poor software maintainer had
> to deal with it.  You're not helping anything with this slop.
> 
> "no armchair engineers" indeed.  Copying chatgpt output and pasting it
> into other people's inboxes doesn't even qualify as *armchair*
>   engineering.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[sirjofri]

Hi,

I didn't take a look at Vic's patches, but I read the mails in this thread. And I can't see any obvious LLM crap, only messages that make sense in that context.

So either I don't know what khm means because I didn't look at the patches, or I just can't get it.

Other than that, it would be great if people could read mails with an imaginary smiling emoji at the end.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Noam Preil]

The patches are deeply relevant, and to be quite honest I'm infuriated
at how much people's time is being _deliberately_ wasted by "vic".

I tried giving them the benefit of the doubt but this is now clearly
active malice.

The author of the project they submitted the patches to noticed the
patches were hallucinated, asked for elaboration, and "vic" proceeded to
effectively gaslight them.

Either vic is a script some troll is running on their computer, or it's
an asshole deliberately wasting people's time. It is 100% definitely
_not_ a human being that is trying to help.


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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Noam Preil]

https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2

I'd strongly suggest that anyone who thinks "vic" is genuinely trying to
help, and at worst a bit incompetent, take a look at that thread.

The author of plan9zig is not on this mailing list, to the best of my
knowledge. They saw the 'patch', expressed appreciation, noticed problems
with it, realized the patch did not compile, realized that the patch
_looked_ LLM-generated, *assumed the benefit of the doubt*, and asked
why the changes were made.

Vic denied any responsibility, ignored the LLM question, refused to
explain any of the changes made, and just said "if you don't like it,
feel free to do your own thing".

"Move beyond it. Let it rest."

"Just go write better code."

A maintainer who has _no_ prior interactions with "vic" assumed good
faith, and with one look at the patch noticed it was likely LLM
generated. They asked for explanation, and Vic implied that they were
the problem and told them "just write better code."



This is not someone not knowing any better. This is not good faith
misbehavior.

There is no universe in which a well-intentioned person tries to help
someone, receives a confused "what are you doing??" response, and then
implies that the person they were trying to help is somehow a problem
because they _want to understand_.

That's _not_ how people treat each other. This is not an accident. This
is deliberate, conscious malice.

Or it's not conscious at all.



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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Aleksandar Kuktin]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 936 bytes --]

>On Sun, 06 Oct 2024 12:24:54 -0500
>"Noam Preil" <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>
> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2
> 
> I'd strongly suggest that anyone who thinks "vic" is genuinely trying
> to help, and at worst a bit incompetent, take a look at that thread.

I've been lurking and occasionally posting to this list since 2016, and
I have to say there has been a phase change since ChatGPT made the
rounds back in November 2022. Since then, this list in particular has
been the target of several rounds of LLM garbage. I don't know why this
is, or why did this list in particular "merit" such treatment (I'll
resist putting on my conspiracy theorist hat), but it's quite obvious
LLMs target this list.

-- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
--
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
--

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[tlaronde]

On Sun, Oct 06, 2024 at 07:33:07PM +0200, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:
> >On Sun, 06 Oct 2024 12:24:54 -0500
> >"Noam Preil" <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
> >
> > https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2
> > 
> > I'd strongly suggest that anyone who thinks "vic" is genuinely trying
> > to help, and at worst a bit incompetent, take a look at that thread.
> 
> I've been lurking and occasionally posting to this list since 2016, and
> I have to say there has been a phase change since ChatGPT made the
> rounds back in November 2022. Since then, this list in particular has
> been the target of several rounds of LLM garbage. I don't know why this
> is, or why did this list in particular "merit" such treatment (I'll
> resist putting on my conspiracy theorist hat), but it's quite obvious
> LLMs target this list.
> 

I imagine that anyone having some site(s) online and looking, from
time to time, to logs has seen an exponential increase of wasted
trafic due to so called "AI" bots.

Initially, the "AI" was just a gain of time: you could obtain the
average or stupid answer to a question in a matter of seconds instead
of having to wait for real people to repeat, generally mutilating it,
what they heard or to cook an amazingly controverted answer---since the
AI software is mainly just a speedy parrot assembling sentences
retrieved from a database so that the result looks alike human
speech.

Now I wonder how much time it will take the AI to pollute its own
databases with its own concocted stupidities that the robots will
feed back to itself? And since a program can output more rapidly than
a human, the weighing of the answers by frequencies will place the AI
generated blah blah at top.

I wonder too if I should not put files accessible to the robots, even
if not linked in the public html pages, with hair-raising texts
just for the pleasure to see these pop up, sooner or later, blessed by
these things...

Perhaps it is indeed just that, the purpose of A.I.: instead of trying
to convince key people to chase a wild goose (the U.S. SDI for example),
bet on lack of will to work (idleness) and greed, i.e. bet that
some enterprises will fire their developers because the "AI" can
solve the problems with no salary costs, so that they will end being out
of business soon with a knowledge gap impossible to fill in order
to come back.

-- 
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ kergis +dot+ com>
                     http://www.kergis.com/
                    http://kertex.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[sirjofri]

06.10.2024 19:26:35 Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev>:
> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2

Oh, I see.

Well, it seems the conversational LLM got better as the mails look more human-generated now.

That also explains why Vic didn't put too much effort into the pull request to be applied. Maybe it's more like a "please do the work", but it's still the worst way to do it.

I don't like those times we live in, with GPT being used as it is...

sirjofri

(Written by me, sadly _not_ obviously)

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

Hey Pixelherodev, g-w1, and anyone else inclined to harass—let’s be clear: I’m human. Accusing me of being a bot without meaningful discussion is discrediting and ostracizing. This behavior only fosters division. If we’re here to share knowledge, let’s do it with respect. Harassment has no place in this community. Targeting people who want to engage isn’t helping—it’s undermining the community.

Let’s be kind, welcoming, and encouraging to one another. The community will be better for it. Is that really asking too much?

When submitting patches, it’s standard to include relevant error messages or logs when reporting issues. Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to provide explanations afterward. This kind of feedback isn't productive. It’s discouraging to face unconstructive criticism or harassment with every submission to 9fans or PR on GitHub. At times, it feels like my name alone may be a trigger for some, similar to how "Lunduke" seems to be for others. I'll just use an alias to help prevent further triggering.

— Vic

On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 05:16, sirjofri wrote:
> 06.10.2024 19:26:35 Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev>:
>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2
> 
> Oh, I see.
> 
> Well, it seems the conversational LLM got better as the mails look more
> human-generated now.
> 
> That also explains why Vic didn't put too much effort into the pull
> request to be applied. Maybe it's more like a "please do the work", but
> it's still the worst way to do it.
> 
> I don't like those times we live in, with GPT being used as it is...
> 
> sirjofri
> 
> (Written by me, sadly _not_ obviously)

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Aleksandar Kuktin]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 798 bytes --]

>On Mon, 07 Oct 2024 07:10:30 +0900
>vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:

> I'll just use an alias to help prevent further triggering.

I doubt that will help, but I have an idea about what will. Why don't
you offer some basic proof of your alleged humanity? Here's an idea -
it's not foolproof but I've seen LLMs fail this test way too hard - send
us an email that says "writing" 1000 times. A human will have no
problem composing such an email (especially humans that know about
geometric progression or programming) but I've heard LLMs have problems
completing this task. :)

-- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
--
You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
Humans will do just fine.
--

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

Oh, bother. That’s not the best way to verify that I’m human, but Rob could confirm it. He invited me to Google’s R&D opening event in Tokyo in 2004. His invitation, extended to me and a few other Plan 9 users, wasn’t public knowledge and wouldn’t be accessible to a language model. At the event, we briefly discussed quantum bits and Richard Feynman, though Rob was often drawn into other conversations with Google members. It was a very lively evening, full of energy and engaging discussions, just as one would expect from a Google event at the time. 

- Vic 

P.S. – Sorry, Rob, for asking you to confirm that I’m actually human. Who would have thought I’d one day be mistaken for a computer? Also, thanks again for great memory. Meeting you at the opening event is something that I'd always remember. I am still very grateful.  - Vic


On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 07:31, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:
>>On Mon, 07 Oct 2024 07:10:30 +0900
>>vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> I'll just use an alias to help prevent further triggering.
> 
> I doubt that will help, but I have an idea about what will. Why don't
> you offer some basic proof of your alleged humanity? Here's an idea -
> it's not foolproof but I've seen LLMs fail this test way too hard - send
> us an email that says "writing" 1000 times. A human will have no
> problem composing such an email (especially humans that know about
> geometric progression or programming) but I've heard LLMs have problems
> completing this task. :)
> 
> --
> Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
> All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
> --
> You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
> Humans will do just fine.
> --
> 
> Attachments:
> * signature.asc

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Noam Preil]

I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged fault,
used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an inability
to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an explanation,
alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.

Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.

Vic's claim:

> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
> provide explanations afterward

What was actually asked,
https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562

> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant comments?

After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
followed up again:

https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139

> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?

There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed by
the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.

Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.

>  feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.

g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
list as a result of vic.

Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so _before
anyone said anything here_.

The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own behaviors
and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
actions.

In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
about LLM usage, it responded as follows:

> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and 
> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste 
> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless 
> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
> It is easier and more honest to disclose their 
> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing 
> trust. 


I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.

- Noam Preil




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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Don A. Bailey]

This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting. 



> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
> 
> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged fault,
> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an inability
> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an explanation,
> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
> 
> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
> 
> Vic's claim:
> 
>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
>> provide explanations afterward
> 
> What was actually asked,
> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
> 
>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant comments?
> 
> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
> followed up again:
> 
> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
> 
>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
> 
> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed by
> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
> 
> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
> 
>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
> 
> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
> list as a result of vic.
> 
> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so _before
> anyone said anything here_.
> 
> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own behaviors
> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
> actions.
> 
> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
> 
>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
>> trust.
> 
> 
> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
> 
> - Noam Preil
> 

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

It's understandable to feel frustrated and make mistakes when dealing with online harassment. I'm currently experiencing ongoing harassment and stalking from certain individuals here. If I knew their real names, I would consider taking legal action to address both their online and offline behaviors, and possibly inform their employers if that would help resolve the issue. It's really that serious. I'm unsure how to navigate this situation—it's overwhelming and feels like pure madness, filled with projection.

Engaging with a community becomes incredibly difficult when some individuals seem intent on harassing others for their own amusement.

- Vic


On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 09:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting. 
>
>
>
>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>> 
>> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged fault,
>> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an inability
>> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
>> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
>> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an explanation,
>> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
>> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
>> 
>> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
>> 
>> Vic's claim:
>> 
>>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
>>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
>>> provide explanations afterward
>> 
>> What was actually asked,
>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
>> 
>>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
>>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant comments?
>> 
>> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
>> followed up again:
>> 
>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
>> 
>>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
>>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
>> 
>> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
>> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed by
>> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
>> 
>> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
>> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
>> 
>>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
>> 
>> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
>> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
>> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
>> list as a result of vic.
>> 
>> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
>> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so _before
>> anyone said anything here_.
>> 
>> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
>> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own behaviors
>> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
>> actions.
>> 
>> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
>> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
>> 
>>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
>>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
>>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
>>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
>>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
>>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
>>> trust.
>> 
>> 
>> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
>> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
>> 
>> - Noam Preil
>> 

------------------------------------------
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Creeper Host Animations]

I wonder if Vic is running on Plan9

> On Oct 6, 2024, at 8:43 PM, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
> 
> It's understandable to feel frustrated and make mistakes when dealing with online harassment. I'm currently experiencing ongoing harassment and stalking from certain individuals here. If I knew their real names, I would consider taking legal action to address both their online and offline behaviors, and possibly inform their employers if that would help resolve the issue. It's really that serious. I'm unsure how to navigate this situation—it's overwhelming and feels like pure madness, filled with projection.
> 
> Engaging with a community becomes incredibly difficult when some individuals seem intent on harassing others for their own amusement.
> 
> - Vic
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 09:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged fault,
>>> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an inability
>>> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
>>> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
>>> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an explanation,
>>> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
>>> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
>>> 
>>> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
>>> 
>>> Vic's claim:
>>> 
>>>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
>>>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
>>>> provide explanations afterward
>>> 
>>> What was actually asked,
>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
>>> 
>>>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
>>>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant comments?
>>> 
>>> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
>>> followed up again:
>>> 
>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
>>> 
>>>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
>>>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
>>> 
>>> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
>>> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed by
>>> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
>>> 
>>> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
>>> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
>>> 
>>>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
>>> 
>>> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
>>> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
>>> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
>>> list as a result of vic.
>>> 
>>> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
>>> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so _before
>>> anyone said anything here_.
>>> 
>>> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
>>> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own behaviors
>>> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
>>> actions.
>>> 
>>> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
>>> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
>>> 
>>>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
>>>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
>>>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
>>>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
>>>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
>>>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
>>>> trust.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
>>> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
>>> 
>>> - Noam Preil
>>> 

------------------------------------------
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

@Creaper Host Automations, that’s pretty funny! I appreciate the humor. If I were, I'd probably be running a version from 2006 on some very old hardware I’m still working with. Honestly, I'd love to put all of this drama behind me. It really has become pointless to engage the community at this point.

- Vic

On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 10:56, Creeper Host Animations wrote:
> I wonder if Vic is running on Plan9
>
>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 8:43 PM, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> 
>> It's understandable to feel frustrated and make mistakes when dealing with online harassment. I'm currently experiencing ongoing harassment and stalking from certain individuals here. If I knew their real names, I would consider taking legal action to address both their online and offline behaviors, and possibly inform their employers if that would help resolve the issue. It's really that serious. I'm unsure how to navigate this situation—it's overwhelming and feels like pure madness, filled with projection.
>> 
>> Engaging with a community becomes incredibly difficult when some individuals seem intent on harassing others for their own amusement.
>> 
>> - Vic
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 09:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>>> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged fault,
>>>> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an inability
>>>> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
>>>> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
>>>> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an explanation,
>>>> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
>>>> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
>>>> 
>>>> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
>>>> 
>>>> Vic's claim:
>>>> 
>>>>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
>>>>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
>>>>> provide explanations afterward
>>>> 
>>>> What was actually asked,
>>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
>>>> 
>>>>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
>>>>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant comments?
>>>> 
>>>> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
>>>> followed up again:
>>>> 
>>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
>>>> 
>>>>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
>>>>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
>>>> 
>>>> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
>>>> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed by
>>>> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
>>>> 
>>>> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
>>>> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
>>>> 
>>>>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
>>>> 
>>>> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
>>>> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
>>>> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
>>>> list as a result of vic.
>>>> 
>>>> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
>>>> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so _before
>>>> anyone said anything here_.
>>>> 
>>>> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
>>>> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own behaviors
>>>> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
>>>> actions.
>>>> 
>>>> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
>>>> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
>>>> 
>>>>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
>>>>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
>>>>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
>>>>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
>>>>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
>>>>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
>>>>> trust.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
>>>> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
>>>> 
>>>> - Noam Preil
>>>> 

------------------------------------------
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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Eli Cohen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5441 bytes --]

hey everyone! I'm just here to steal the Delorean. I honestly missed it on
the first pass. and I'm not the kind of person who would steal a car. I
resent these wild accusations. thank you for all of these great
contributions! you're all doing excellent work. please remember it has to
all fit on the CD ROM

On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 7:10 PM <vester.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> @Creaper Host Automations, that’s pretty funny! I appreciate the humor. If
> I were, I'd probably be running a version from 2006 on some very old
> hardware I’m still working with. Honestly, I'd love to put all of this
> drama behind me. It really has become pointless to engage the community at
> this point.
>
> - Vic
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 10:56, Creeper Host Animations wrote:
> > I wonder if Vic is running on Plan9
> >
> >> On Oct 6, 2024, at 8:43 PM, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
> >>
> >> It's understandable to feel frustrated and make mistakes when dealing
> with online harassment. I'm currently experiencing ongoing harassment and
> stalking from certain individuals here. If I knew their real names, I would
> consider taking legal action to address both their online and offline
> behaviors, and possibly inform their employers if that would help resolve
> the issue. It's really that serious. I'm unsure how to navigate this
> situation—it's overwhelming and feels like pure madness, filled with
> projection.
> >>
> >> Engaging with a community becomes incredibly difficult when some
> individuals seem intent on harassing others for their own amusement.
> >>
> >> - Vic
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 09:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> >>> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged
> fault,
> >>>> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an
> inability
> >>>> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
> >>>> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
> >>>> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an
> explanation,
> >>>> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
> >>>> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
> >>>>
> >>>> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
> >>>>
> >>>> Vic's claim:
> >>>>
> >>>>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
> >>>>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
> >>>>> provide explanations afterward
> >>>>
> >>>> What was actually asked,
> >>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
> >>>>
> >>>>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
> >>>>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant
> comments?
> >>>>
> >>>> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
> >>>> followed up again:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
> >>>>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
> >>>>
> >>>> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
> >>>> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed
> by
> >>>> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
> >>>>
> >>>> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
> >>>> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
> >>>>
> >>>>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
> >>>>
> >>>> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
> >>>> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
> >>>> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
> >>>> list as a result of vic.
> >>>>
> >>>> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
> >>>> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so
> _before
> >>>> anyone said anything here_.
> >>>>
> >>>> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
> >>>> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own
> behaviors
> >>>> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
> >>>> actions.
> >>>>
> >>>> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
> >>>> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
> >>>>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
> >>>>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
> >>>>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
> >>>>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
> >>>>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
> >>>>> trust.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
> >>>> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Noam Preil
> >>>>

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[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8507 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[vester.thacker]

No need for a DeLorean, Eli. This fits perfectly on a CD-ROM. ;-)

https://tip9ug.jp/download/Plan_9_4th_Edition.2004.iso

With the right hardware, it still works great. It might not be as forgiving as 9front or 9legacy, but it's still enjoyable to use. The best part is having a clean slate, with no one to bother you about it. If you want features, just add them yourself.

When I read comments about other forks, I think, 'Great, I’m glad they exist.' But honestly, after using them and reflecting on my experiences over the years, I’ll stick with what I’m using. There’s something peaceful about running Plan 9 4th Edition on older computers—it's like living quietly in the mountains rather than in a bustling city.

After all this hoopla, I've come to realize that after I port something, it's probably not even worth mentioning.

- Vic


On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 11:17, Eli Cohen wrote:
> hey everyone! I'm just here to steal the Delorean. I honestly missed it on
> the first pass. and I'm not the kind of person who would steal a car. I
> resent these wild accusations. thank you for all of these great
> contributions! you're all doing excellent work. please remember it has to
> all fit on the CD ROM
>
> On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 7:10 PM <vester.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> @Creaper Host Automations, that’s pretty funny! I appreciate the humor. If
>> I were, I'd probably be running a version from 2006 on some very old
>> hardware I’m still working with. Honestly, I'd love to put all of this
>> drama behind me. It really has become pointless to engage the community at
>> this point.
>>
>> - Vic
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 10:56, Creeper Host Animations wrote:
>> > I wonder if Vic is running on Plan9
>> >
>> >> On Oct 6, 2024, at 8:43 PM, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It's understandable to feel frustrated and make mistakes when dealing
>> with online harassment. I'm currently experiencing ongoing harassment and
>> stalking from certain individuals here. If I knew their real names, I would
>> consider taking legal action to address both their online and offline
>> behaviors, and possibly inform their employers if that would help resolve
>> the issue. It's really that serious. I'm unsure how to navigate this
>> situation—it's overwhelming and feels like pure madness, filled with
>> projection.
>> >>
>> >> Engaging with a community becomes incredibly difficult when some
>> individuals seem intent on harassing others for their own amusement.
>> >>
>> >> - Vic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 09:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>> >>> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged
>> fault,
>> >>>> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an
>> inability
>> >>>> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
>> >>>> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
>> >>>> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an
>> explanation,
>> >>>> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
>> >>>> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Vic's claim:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
>> >>>>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
>> >>>>> provide explanations afterward
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What was actually asked,
>> >>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
>> >>>>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant
>> comments?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
>> >>>> followed up again:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
>> >>>>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
>> >>>> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed
>> by
>> >>>> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
>> >>>> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
>> >>>> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
>> >>>> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
>> >>>> list as a result of vic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
>> >>>> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so
>> _before
>> >>>> anyone said anything here_.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
>> >>>> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own
>> behaviors
>> >>>> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
>> >>>> actions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
>> >>>> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
>> >>>>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
>> >>>>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
>> >>>>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
>> >>>>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
>> >>>>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
>> >>>>> trust.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
>> >>>> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - Noam Preil
>> >>>>

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Steve Simon]

i can confirm vic is human and predates LLMs by many years. he has been a contributor to plan9 for as long as i can remember.

people, be kind.

-Steve


> On 7 Oct 2024, at 5:10 am, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
> 
> No need for a DeLorean, Eli. This fits perfectly on a CD-ROM. ;-)
> 
> https://tip9ug.jp/download/Plan_9_4th_Edition.2004.iso
> 
> With the right hardware, it still works great. It might not be as forgiving as 9front or 9legacy, but it's still enjoyable to use. The best part is having a clean slate, with no one to bother you about it. If you want features, just add them yourself.
> 
> When I read comments about other forks, I think, 'Great, I’m glad they exist.' But honestly, after using them and reflecting on my experiences over the years, I’ll stick with what I’m using. There’s something peaceful about running Plan 9 4th Edition on older computers—it's like living quietly in the mountains rather than in a bustling city.
> 
> After all this hoopla, I've come to realize that after I port something, it's probably not even worth mentioning.
> 
> - Vic
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 11:17, Eli Cohen wrote:
>> hey everyone! I'm just here to steal the Delorean. I honestly missed it on
>> the first pass. and I'm not the kind of person who would steal a car. I
>> resent these wild accusations. thank you for all of these great
>> contributions! you're all doing excellent work. please remember it has to
>> all fit on the CD ROM
>> 
>>> On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 7:10 PM <vester.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>> 
>>> @Creaper Host Automations, that’s pretty funny! I appreciate the humor. If
>>> I were, I'd probably be running a version from 2006 on some very old
>>> hardware I’m still working with. Honestly, I'd love to put all of this
>>> drama behind me. It really has become pointless to engage the community at
>>> this point.
>>> 
>>> - Vic
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 10:56, Creeper Host Animations wrote:
>>>> I wonder if Vic is running on Plan9
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 8:43 PM, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's understandable to feel frustrated and make mistakes when dealing
>>> with online harassment. I'm currently experiencing ongoing harassment and
>>> stalking from certain individuals here. If I knew their real names, I would
>>> consider taking legal action to address both their online and offline
>>> behaviors, and possibly inform their employers if that would help resolve
>>> the issue. It's really that serious. I'm unsure how to navigate this
>>> situation—it's overwhelming and feels like pure madness, filled with
>>> projection.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Engaging with a community becomes incredibly difficult when some
>>> individuals seem intent on harassing others for their own amusement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Vic
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024, at 09:53, Don A. Bailey wrote:
>>>>>> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 6, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I want to be 100% crystal clear here: vic has consistently dodged
>>> fault,
>>>>>>> used LLM-generated spam both on- and off-list, demonstrated an
>>> inability
>>>>>>> to distinguish between different people and between different venues,
>>>>>>> submitted patches that _do not compile_ and actively make code worse,
>>>>>>> and then accused reviewers of harassment for asking for an
>>> explanation,
>>>>>>> alternated between gaslighting people when confronted and dodging
>>>>>>> questions entirely, moved goalposts, and on and on and on.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Literally every post they've sent has had hallmarks of LLM behavior.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Vic's claim:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> . Unfortunately, instead of constructive feedback, I was asked to
>>>>>>>> remove the comments explaining my work, only to then be asked to
>>>>>>>> provide explanations afterward
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What was actually asked,
>>>>>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394838562
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Most of these comments are redundant with what the code does.
>>>>>>>> Before I merge, could you please remove most of these redundant
>>> comments?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> After taking a second look, the author noticed more problems, and
>>>>>>> followed up again:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://github.com/g-w1/plan9zig/pull/2#issuecomment-2394851139
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hmm, yeah a bunch of this code seems just plain hallucinated.
>>>>>>>> @vimanuelt can you explain why you made the changes you did?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There was not a request to remove explanations and then provide
>>>>>>> explanations. There was a request to remove _bad comments_, followed
>>> by
>>>>>>> the realization that the patch was submitted by a bot.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Most tellingly, "vic"'s comment on the PR appears incapable of
>>>>>>> distinguishing between the PR and this mailing list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> feel free to contact me directly to reduce noise on the mailing list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> g-w1 and vic never interacted before that. g-w1 is not on this list.
>>>>>>> There _was no noise_ on this list as a result of the patches.
>>>>>>> Interestingly, eople on this list have complained about noise on the
>>>>>>> list as a result of vic.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Moreover, in their follow-up messages to the list, vic has accused
>>>>>>> people _on the list_ of criticizing the patches, but they did so
>>> _before
>>>>>>> anyone said anything here_.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The evidence is strong that Vic is, at best, an LLM and, at worst, an
>>>>>>> asshole, actively attempting to gaslight people about its own
>>> behaviors
>>>>>>> and comments, and attempting to guilt others for calling out its toxic
>>>>>>> actions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In a response to a message asking people to be upfront
>>>>>>> about LLM usage, it responded as follows:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have noticed the emergence of LLMs in email clients and
>>>>>>>> word processors. Additionally, the need to cut and paste
>>>>>>>> results has been eliminated, making the integration seamless
>>>>>>>> and LLM usage soon commonplace.
>>>>>>>> It is easier and more honest to disclose their
>>>>>>>> use rather than calling out suspected users and diminishing
>>>>>>>> trust.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm not wasting more ink on this, but please, please
>>>>>>> please stop feeding the troll. It's not worth it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - Noam Preil
>>>>>>> 

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2024 at 06:59:23AM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
> i can confirm vic is human and predates LLMs by many years. he has been a contributor to plan9 for as long as i can remember.

Where did he copy and paste the contributions from before LLMs?

khm

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[sirjofri]

07.10.2024 09:11:03 Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2024 at 06:59:23AM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
>> i can confirm vic is human and predates LLMs by many years. he has been a contributor to plan9 for as long as i can remember.
>
> Where did he copy and paste the contributions from before LLMs?

Funny, but please chill down a bit. Thin ice here, it feels like spilling more hostile sauce will make it break.

I have no doubt that Vic is a real person and I have no doubt in the history of contributions. I believe though, that LLMs changed a lot in society for the worse, including hallucinated responses and patches.

If Vic is using an AI system, why not admit it? It can be a helpful tool if you use it correctly, and apparently (or obviously) Vic is not using it correctly.

Anyway, there's no reason to harass a real person about this. Better tell them (as we already did), ask them to stop (as we already did), ask them to explain (as we already did), teach them (as we already did). If that person doesn't want to listen, don't feed them.

Now Vic, why didn't you listen to any of our requests? Why did you evade our questions and requests? I think the situation would be like that if you just honestly responded months ago when we had a similar discussion.

I'm not your enemy, I just can't understand.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] V Programming Language (vlang)

[dpe]

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On Monday, 7 October 2024, at 1:53 AM, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> This list should just be renamed to schizophreniaposting.
Indeed. Some friendly advice: As the OP (my first thread), and looking in on the P9 community from the outside, I must say that so far I am not finding it to be a good look. I was only here to learn a bit about the future of programming languages in the various Plan 9 projects. I get it that this sort of speculation is not universally appealing but one can choose to move on.

This is probably a good time to put this topic to bed. A new thread on re-writing Plan 9 in languages such as Rust has forked from this one which might be a better place to continue the original discussion.
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